And this is why there must not be an NRL Europe

[westlondonfan]

On 22/07/2021 at 17:08, fighting irish said:

After the dismissive and contemptuous statement by Pearson today, it's clear our SL chairmen are no more interested in International development or the celebration that the World Cup ought to be than V'landys and that shower down under.

The sport needs to regroup and focus on spreading the game and organising International competition amongst fledgling nations.

Let the ''freakish, stunted, inbred and inward looking, professional circus'' look after itself.

I think that the reality, is that the Aussies have actually done more for international expansion with New Zealand, Tonga, and PNG and also Fiji, Samoa, Lebanon and Italy than the super League has with Toronto, Celtic Crusaders and France.

[fighting irish]

35 minutes ago, westlondonfan said:

I think that the reality, is that the Aussies have actually done more for international expansion with New Zealand, Tonga, and PNG and also Fiji, Samoa, Lebanon and Italy than the super League has with Toronto, Celtic Crusaders and France.

So do I.

I don't think the SL can claim credit for any of those initiatives.

Catalan, Crusaders and Toronto were all pioneered by individual entrepreneurs who approached SL for membership.

The Crusaders perished due to the failure of Leighton Samuels business and Toronto were undone by a combination of a global pandemic and the strenuous efforts of the last catastrophic blunder we made, Robert Elstone.

[Liverpool Rover]

9 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

He can assure you though. 

He didn’t do a very good job of it.

[Hela Wigmen]

6 hours ago, langpark said:

Theory and practice are always two different things. For me, the solution is a strong IRL. The stronger they get, the more things like what you mention about varying rules (also a pet hate of mine) can stop happening. I know this will take a very long time to happen though. 

But the idea of NRL taking over is frightening. 

The IRL aren’t fit for purpose. It’s little wonder the NRL want and/or think they should have control. 

[GUBRATS]

6 hours ago, westlondonfan said:

I think that the reality, is that the Aussies have actually done more for international expansion with New Zealand, Tonga, and PNG and also Fiji, Samoa, Lebanon and Italy than the super League has with Toronto, Celtic Crusaders and France.

The Aussies aren't ' responsible ' for NZ , Tonga ,PNG , Samoa , Fiji , Lebanon or Italy at all , they all just happened irrespective of the the NRL 

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

The Aussies aren't ' responsible ' for NZ , Tonga ,PNG , Samoa , Fiji , Lebanon or Italy at all , they all just happened irrespective of the the NRL 

To be fair the game was introduced into PNG by Aussies back in the 1950s or thereabout, though whether that had anything to do with the ARL I don't know.  Fiji, Tonga and Samoa came on the scene in the late 1980s on the back of RU converts from those countries and the others are basically made up teams full of heritage players who've never lived in the countries they represent or left with their parents when they were little gaffers.

Unless I'm mistaken the total of RL development in the any of those countries apart from PNG amounts to a few teams of RU players playing a short season shoehorned into their RU off-season.

[langpark]

4 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

The IRL aren’t fit for purpose. It’s little wonder the NRL want and/or think they should have control. 

I would say in just two years they have come a very long way. They used to be completely invisible. As I say, there is still a long way to go, but I see them heading in the right direction. 

They are on a shoestring budget compared to NRL. RLWC is their sole cash cow and now that has been taken away. Rich get richer, poor get poorer comes to mind.

[westlondonfan]

5 hours ago, Big Picture said:

To be fair the game was introduced into PNG by Aussies back in the 1950s or thereabout, though whether that had anything to do with the ARL I don't know.  Fiji, Tonga and Samoa came on the scene in the late 1980s on the back of RU converts from those countries and the others are basically made up teams full of heritage players who've never lived in the countries they represent or left with their parents when they were little gaffers.

Unless I'm mistaken the total of RL development in the any of those countries apart from PNG amounts to a few teams of RU players playing a short season shoehorned into their RU off-season.

The overwhelming majority of the national squads of these countries  play in the NRL or their second tier competition. When New Zealand won the World Cup the entire squad played in the NRL with one exception who played at Wigan .

At that time how many French players were playing in top level northern hemisphere rugby league? 
 

[westlondonfan]

7 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

The Aussies aren't ' responsible ' for NZ , Tonga ,PNG , Samoa , Fiji , Lebanon or Italy at all , they all just happened irrespective of the the NRL 

All but three of the current Tongan team play in the NRL. Probably similar for the other national teams that I have mentioned. Without the success of the NRL where would rugby league be as a world sport? There would probably not be a serious World Cup at all.
Contrast that with the RFL/SL’s attitude to France, Wales and more recently Canada?

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, westlondonfan said:

All but three of the current Tongan team play in the NRL. Probably similar for the other national teams that I have mentioned. Without the success of the NRL where would rugby league be as a world sport? There would probably not be a serious World Cup at all.
Contrast that with the RFL/SL’s attitude to France, Wales and more recently Canada?

When I lived in NZ in 1977 the RL clubs around Wellington were full of Tongan and Samoan players , did the NRL ( which didn't exist then ) introduce those Pacific islanders to RL ? 

No 

Have the ARL actively and aggressively gone to these Pacific Islands and organised teams and competitions in them ? 

No 

Migration for work has brought these ethnic groups to Australia and NZ , they are naturally suited to the sport , and therefore taken it up , the NRL is not responsible for that and cannot claim to have developed them 

[bobbruce]

14 hours ago, westlondonfan said:

I think that the reality, is that the Aussies have actually done more for international expansion with New Zealand, Tonga, and PNG and also Fiji, Samoa, Lebanon and Italy than the super League has with Toronto, Celtic Crusaders and France.

This is the perfect example the the Aussies have actually done zero for international expansion. What they’ve done is NRL expansion. They are now in a position to run international comps purely with NRL players. Don’t think that’s by accident. 

[GUBRATS]

13 hours ago, fighting irish said:

So do I.

I don't think the SL can claim credit for any of those initiatives.

Catalan, Crusaders and Toronto were all pioneered by individual entrepreneurs who approached SL for membership.

The Crusaders perished due to the failure of Leighton Samuels business and Toronto were undone by a combination of a global pandemic and the strenuous efforts of the last catastrophic blunder we made, Robert Elstone.

The Crusaders perished due to the dropping of Sport England funding that was being channelled through Welsh RL which was being run through Leighton Samuels premises , and the use of dodgy Visa's for their foreign players , get it right 

[UTK]

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

When I lived in NZ in 1977 the RL clubs around Wellington were full of Tongan and Samoan players , did the NRL ( which didn't exist then ) introduce those Pacific islanders to RL ? 

No 

Have the ARL actively and aggressively gone to these Pacific Islands and organised teams and competitions in them ? 

No 

Migration for work has brought these ethnic groups to Australia and NZ , they are naturally suited to the sport , and therefore taken it up , the NRL is not responsible for that and cannot claim to have developed them 

There are plenty of valid criticisms of the NRL/ARLC in relation to the international game but this completely ignores the PNG Hunters/Kaiviti Silktails where they have in fact done exactly that by setting up professional pathways into Australian competitions. They've also supported heritage-based grassroots competitions within Aus for years to engage each respective islander community at both a junior and senior level. 

Undoubtedly the migration factor is true but indicating the NRL hasn't done anything to support the Island nations as has been suggested throughout this thread is simply incorrect.

 

[fighting irish]

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The Crusaders perished due to the dropping of Sport England funding that was being channelled through Welsh RL which was being run through Leighton Samuels premises , and the use of dodgy Visa's for their foreign players , get it right 

Samuels was a signficant contributor to the cash flow Gub, and his business nose dived, whichever way you look at it the Crusaders wasn't a SuperLeague initiative and they didn't do anything to help them when his business tanked. 

[westlondonfan]

7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

When I lived in NZ in 1977 the RL clubs around Wellington were full of Tongan and Samoan players , did the NRL ( which didn't exist then ) introduce those Pacific islanders to RL ? 

No 

Have the ARL actively and aggressively gone to these Pacific Islands and organised teams and competitions in them ? 

No 

Migration for work has brought these ethnic groups to Australia and NZ , they are naturally suited to the sport , and therefore taken it up , the NRL is not responsible for that and cannot claim to have developed them 

I would of thought that without a very successful Aussie rugby league scene ( be it NRL or it’s predecessors) these players would not have ended up playing rugby league professionally at all. I am not saying that this is all by design but having said that, NZ have been in the NRL a long time now, and there are now, or will be, second tier teams from PNG and Fiji.

In contrast the attitude in the northern hemisphere has been woeful. There have been serious missed opportunities with France, Wales and Canada and probably others too. Just complaining about the Aussies and the Kiwis just seems a bit churlish to me. 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, UTK said:

There are plenty of valid criticisms of the NRL/ARLC in relation to the international game but this completely ignores the PNG Hunters/Kaiviti Silktails where they have in fact done exactly that by setting up professional pathways into Australian competitions. They've also supported heritage-based grassroots competitions within Aus for years to engage each respective islander community at both a junior and senior level. 

Undoubtedly the migration factor is true but indicating the NRL hasn't done anything to support the Island nations as has been suggested throughout this thread is simply incorrect.

 

So in the last couple of years ( relatively speaking ) , they've set up ( helped/allowed ) a team to play in their lower tier comp 

Hardly historical major development 

[LongbridgeH]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

So in the last couple of years ( relatively speaking ) , they've set up ( helped/allowed ) a team to play in their lower tier comp 

Hardly historical major development 

Could make a case that it’s ‘1-1’ on that score with the likes of Toulouse in the Championship 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Samuels was a signficant contributor to the cash flow Gub, and his business nose dived, whichever way you look at it the Crusaders wasn't a SuperLeague initiative and they didn't do anything to help them when his business tanked. 

Yes he was , but it was an RFL initiative arranged by Richard Lewis / Nigel Wood 

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, westlondonfan said:

I would of thought that without a very successful Aussie rugby league scene ( be it NRL or it’s predecessors) these players would not have ended up playing rugby league professionally at all. I am not saying that this is all by design but having said that, NZ have been in the NRL a long time now, and there are now, or will be, second tier teams from PNG and Fiji.

In contrast the attitude in the northern hemisphere has been woeful. There have been serious missed opportunities with France, Wales and Canada and probably others too. Just complaining about the Aussies and the Kiwis just seems a bit churlish to me. 

So the Warriors are in the NRL , just like the Catalans , just like Toulouse in the Championship , which first happened a decade ago , what exactly do you want SL/RFL to do in Canada ? , Because it's just like the Pacific Islands , Britain is full of Canadian RL players , just like Australia and NZ are full of Pacific Island RL players 

Yes the NRL are now looking to get more PI heritage players playing RL rather than RU , quite simply because they are physically suited to it 

[westlondonfan]

8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So the Warriors are in the NRL , just like the Catalans , just like Toulouse in the Championship , which first happened a decade ago , what exactly do you want SL/RFL to do in Canada ? , Because it's just like the Pacific Islands , Britain is full of Canadian RL players , just like Australia and NZ are full of Pacific Island RL players 

Yes the NRL are now looking to get more PI heritage players playing RL rather than RU , quite simply because they are physically suited to it 

I suppose the RFL/SL have got to support, financially  if necessary, a SL team in Wales and Toronto, play more internationals on a regular basis, support Toulouse in becoming a potential SL team and maybe visit Italy or Lebanon or. Canada as well if that is possible. 
As soon as Celtic Crusaders and the Toronto Wolfpack had problems they were history in the top tier and probably were never coming back. Just having a dwindling number of top level northern teams and a national team eventually being eclipsed by Tonga and PNG is not a very attractive future in many ways and if rugby league in Australasia continues to grow financially at the same time then they will eventually take over the Super League in one way or another at some stage in the future I would of thought?

Maybe I am just ###### off because the match this afternoon against Widnes is cancelled and I also don’t want to move to Wimbledon!

[UTK]

19 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So in the last couple of years ( relatively speaking ) , they've set up ( helped/allowed ) a team to play in their lower tier comp 

Hardly historical major development 

Sort of a separate argument but providing a fully-professional pathway for domestic players is realistically the best way to develop the strength of any emerging nation whether that be PNG/Fiji or France/Wales/Canada for that matter. I don't think attempting to undermine that progression is a useful exercise at all.

Outside of those previously mentioned they've also had regular staging of the PMs XIII games in PNG and Fiji, plus the home test in Samoa. On a grassroots level in the Islands themselves, the Pacific Outreach initiative has delivered RL programs to kids in schools as well as general communities within PNG/Fiji/Samoa/Tonga through development officers in these countries. Those programs encompass the likes of coaching and refereeing courses as well from a game development perspective.

Again, there's plenty more that can be done and the trajectory we appear to be heading in under the current administration makes me feel quite ill but this idea that nothing has been done for the islands in recent history is a myth.

 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, UTK said:

Sort of a separate argument but providing a fully-professional pathway for domestic players is realistically the best way to develop the strength of any emerging nation whether that be PNG/Fiji or France/Wales/Canada for that matter. I don't think attempting to undermine that progression is a useful exercise at all.

Outside of those previously mentioned they've also had regular staging of the PMs XIII games in PNG and Fiji, plus the home test in Samoa. On a grassroots level in the Islands themselves, the Pacific Outreach initiative has delivered RL programs to kids in schools as well as general communities within PNG/Fiji/Samoa/Tonga through development officers in these countries. Those programs encompass the likes of coaching and refereeing courses as well from a game development perspective.

Again, there's plenty more that can be done and the trajectory we appear to be heading in under the current administration makes me feel quite ill but this idea that nothing has been done for the islands in recent history is a myth.

 

So yes they are investing a tiny amount of their billions to entice more Pacific islanders into RL rather than union 

Do we have the billions they have ?

If we were to invest the same % wise , how much would it achieve ?

[UTK]

 

13 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So yes they are investing a tiny amount of their billions to entice more Pacific islanders into RL rather than union 

Do we have the billions they have ?

If we were to invest the same % wise , how much would it achieve ?

My purpose of interjecting into the thread was to dispel this myth that the NRL have sat on their hands and done nothing but reap the rewards of players coming through the Islands. As I've demonstrated this somewhat dominant belief on here is incorrect and generally spawned out of disdain for the NRL/Aus (which is fair enough in its own right) rather than actual fact.

Shifting to the comparison to the RFL/SL, of course they don't the same billions that the NRL do, they also exist in a completely different sporting and cultural context in the NH than the NRL does in the SH. The issues facing NH RL are undoubtedly more complex and provide greater barriers to overcome. That said, suggesting that because the rewards are perhaps more difficult to achieve, or because investing the same % may not draw proportional results means they shouldn't really bother at all isn't a valid approach. As with all grassroots or emerging nations development, something will generally always be far superior to nothing and as the only fully-professional league in the NH there is an inherent responsibility present to use that platform to support such progress.

[Damien]

Maybe needs to be taken with a pinch of salt but I can well believe it:

 

[londonrlfan]

"NRL Europe" Isn't that an oxymoron?