Random Rule Enquiry

[Wellsy4HullFC]

No idea why this can't into my head, but just wanted clarification.

Does a drop kick coming as a "bomb"? i.e. Can you defuse a drop kick and then get a tap on the 20?

[bobbruce]

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

No idea why this can't into my head, but just wanted clarification.

Does a drop kick coming as a "bomb"? i.e. Can you defuse a drop kick and then get a tap on the 20?

I’m going to say no. I think if you catch it in goal it’s play on. 

[LeeF]

Restarting play at 20m – with an optional kick (i.e. any type of kick) 2. The game is restarted with an optional kick from the  centre of the 20m line if:

(a) an attacking player last touches the ball before it goes out of play over the dead ball line or into touch in-goal except from a penalty kick (see Law 3), or from a kick off from the centre of the halfway line. (see 4(g) and 6(b) below).

(b) an attacking player infringes in the in-goal area. In the event of a deliberate breach by an attacking player a penalty kick is awarded 10 metres in the field of play in line with where the breach was committed. (See Section 13.)

(c) a defending player, in his in-goal, takes a kick in general play from an opponent on the full.

[Ralgex]

Double post

[Padge]

A drop kick is a general kick in play except when a penalty or conversion where a kicker can opt to drop kick rather than a place kick. 

[barnyia]

Another one, What about a penalty goal attempt and you catch it on the full in your dead ball area? 20m restart and 7 tackles or play on? I'd guess play on. 

[Ralgex]

52 minutes ago, barnyia said:

Another one, What about a penalty goal attempt and you catch it on the full in your dead ball area? 20m restart and 7 tackles or play on? I'd guess play on. 

If you mean in-goal area - play on. 
 

if you mean over the dead ball line - 20m drop out. 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

The relevant law for the dg

The game is restarted with an optional kick from the  centre of the 20m line if:

(c) a defending player, in his in-goal, takes a kick in general play from an opponent on the full. The ball may be kicked in any manner and in any direction and is immediately in play.

[barnyia]

1 hour ago, Ralgex said:

If you mean in-goal area - play on. 
 

if you mean over the dead ball line - 20m drop out. 

In goal area. 

[The Rocket]

7 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

The game is restarted with an optional kick from the  centre of the 20m line if:

This is why the player who restarts play has to tap the ball with his foot i.e. a mini-kick, if they are trying to catch the defence out they will often do it on the run.

Now correct me if I`m wrong, in the past in close games, I have seen teams take the other option and boot the ball down field, from the middle of the 22,  with the aim of finding touch, because under the optional restart rules, if you can find touch, not out on the full of course, the team taking the optional kick get the feed at the scrum. It was a way of gaining ~50 easy metres and then going back on the attack.

Is it the same as where if you can get the ball over the side-line from either a kick-off or line drop-out. i.e you would get the scrum feed.

I remember seeing this as a shock tactic used by teams in the past who were behind on the score board with little time remaining. I`m pretty sure I saw Canberra use this tactic successfully about twenty years ago. Most teams these days with the seven-tackle set prefer to tap (the mini-kick) and play on.

Was always surprised we didn`t see it more often, especially under circumstances where the team was defending their line, the attacking teams was all up and a long low trajectory kick-option might easily find touch.

Interesting that the 40/20 rule has now codified that rule so that any kick from within your own 40 that finds touch in your opponents twenty gets you possession at the restart. Of course under the optional restart there is no requirement to get the ball inside your opponents 20 metre line, anywhere over the sideline will be enough to retain possession..

[bobbruce]

10 hours ago, The Rocket said:

This is why the player who restarts play has to tap the ball with his foot i.e. a mini-kick, if they are trying to catch the defence out they will often do it on the run.

Now correct me if I`m wrong, in the past in close games, I have seen teams take the other option and boot the ball down field, from the middle of the 22,  with the aim of finding touch, because under the optional restart rules, if you can find touch, not out on the full of course, the team taking the optional kick get the feed at the scrum. It was a way of gaining ~50 easy metres and then going back on the attack.

Is it the same as where if you can get the ball over the side-line from either a kick-off or line drop-out. i.e you would get the scrum feed.

I remember seeing this as a shock tactic used by teams in the past who were behind on the score board with little time remaining. I`m pretty sure I saw Canberra use this tactic successfully about twenty years ago. Most teams these days with the seven-tackle set prefer to tap (the mini-kick) and play on.

Was always surprised we didn`t see it more often, especially under circumstances where the team was defending their line, the attacking teams was all up and a long low trajectory kick-option might easily find touch.

Interesting that the 40/20 rule has now codified that rule so that any kick from within your own 40 that finds touch in your opponents twenty gets you possession at the restart. Of course under the optional restart there is no requirement to get the ball inside your opponents 20 metre line, anywhere over the sideline will be enough to retain possession..

That is correct and it’s one of those things that amazes me teams don’t utilise more. When you think about it you are in the middle of the pitch you have all the time you want and wingers don’t tend to drop back at a restart. 

[The Rocket]

1 hour ago, bobbruce said:

That is correct and it’s one of those things that amazes me teams don’t utilise more. When you think about it you are in the middle of the pitch you have all the time you want and wingers don’t tend to drop back at a restart. 

Thanks mate, it`s been so long since I saw it, and it was only a couple of times, I think around the same time I may have seen a couple of unsuccessful attempts, but I wasn`t sure if my memory was playing tricks on me.

It`s interesting when the 40/20 came in it was so left field that I thought it was a piece of creative genius, having discussed this with you it does make you wonder whether it was this obscure rule that inspired the introduction of that new rule.

It does make me wonder though what the logic behind those rulings is though, why, if you can get the ball into touch off a kick-off, line drop-out or the 20m optional restart, you would get the feed at the scrum, which for all intents and purposes is retaining possession. Is it simply a reward for getting the ball past the defenders and over the sideline.

[hindle xiii]

I remember Sinfield utilising the optional restart from a 20m tap a few times a few years ago now.

Also, I honestly thought @Wellsy4HullFC was asking if a goal line drop out could be diffused by catching it in the opposite in goal, that would be a monster drop kick!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

The reason I was asking was moreso to see if drop kicks could be used in open play to get around defusing a bomb!

They can't it appears, so no one is going to be working on their cross field drop kicks anytime soon!

[Barry Badrinath]

Has anyone witnessed one of them 20/40 kicks this year?

[The Rocket]

2 hours ago, Barry Badrinath said:

Has anyone witnessed one of them 20/40 kicks this year?

Saw one recently, or at least an attempt, can`t remember what team but I remember they were trapped in their 20, and the kicker put a kick in that looked like it was definitely aimed at the sideline down field, took the commentator a few seconds to twig and then he exclaimed " that was a 20/40 attempt ".

As I said, it didn`t come off so can`t be certain but certainly looked like an attempt at one.

I suppose we see so few because it is rare to see a team trapped inside their 20 at the end of a set and if they are, there is a lot of defensive pressure on the kicker, a 40/20 on the other hand can be a much more of an attacking kick if the attacking team has the defensive team on the back foot.

Very interesting likeness though with the kick into touch from the optional restart gaining you the feed.

[Griff]

On 22/07/2021 at 20:24, Wellsy4HullFC said:

No idea why this can't into my head, but just wanted clarification.

Does a drop kick coming as a "bomb"? i.e. Can you defuse a drop kick and then get a tap on the 20?

No - if it goes over the crossbar between the posts.

Yes - if not.

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Barry Badrinath said:

Has anyone witnessed one of them 20/40 kicks this year?

I haven't.

[Nomad XIII]

On 23/07/2021 at 18:24, The Rocket said:

Now correct me if I`m wrong, in the past in close games, I have seen teams take the other option and boot the ball down field, from the middle of the 22,  with the aim of finding touch, because under the optional restart rules, if you can find touch, not out on the full of course, the team taking the optional kick get the feed at the scrum. It was a way of gaining ~50 easy metres and then going back on the attack.

That was another rule which was originally in the NRL only for a few years. Sean Long got caught out by it in a Grand Final when he kicked to touch and was amazed the other team were awarded head and feed. 

[The Rocket]

4 minutes ago, Nomad XIII said:

That was another rule which was originally in the NRL only for a few years. Sean Long got caught out by it in a Grand Final when he kicked to touch and was amazed the other team were awarded head and feed. 

So this was definitely from a 20 metre tap restart ? I got the impression it had been around forever but was hardly ever used.

The 40/20 of course is almost identical, but in its` case you have to get it inside your opponents 40 metre mark.

[Nomad XIII]

1 minute ago, The Rocket said:

So this was definitely from a 20 metre tap restart ? I got the impression it had been around forever but was hardly ever used.

The 40/20 of course is almost identical, but in its` case you have to get it inside your opponents 40 metre mark.

Yeah this was about 2005, unless my memory is playing tricks definitely a tap 20.

The 40/20 was introduced in 1997 in the ARL. Kick offs and drop outs to touch were also given to the kicking team that year. My recollection was that extending that to the 20M optional restart was introduced in the NRL about 2000. 

 

[The Rocket]

3 minutes ago, Nomad XIII said:

Yeah this was about 2005, unless my memory is playing tricks definitely a tap 20.

The 40/20 was introduced in 1997 in the ARL. Kick offs and drop outs to touch were also given to the kicking team that year. My recollection was that extending that to the 20M optional restart was introduced in the NRL about 2000. 

 

Good on you mate, that all fits in with about my recollections of it as well. But you say the 20m restart kicked into touch was abandoned, that`d be a shame.

[Nomad XIII]

2 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Good on you mate, that all fits in with about my recollections of it as well. But you say the 20m restart kicked into touch was abandoned, that`d be a shame.

Oh, just re-read my first post and when I said "NRL only for a few years", I meant NRL only until Superleague adopted it. It's in the rule book now. Just looked up the list of Grand Finals and St Helens played in 2002, then not again till 2007, so 2002 would be my guess when the incident I mentioned happened.

I agree it could be used a lot more now. The way players sprint to the 20M line to take the tap as quick as possible, without even checking their team-mates are onside (worst that can happen is a peep-peep and get told nicely to try again). I absolutely think players should practise a long run up and hoofing the ball 50 metres into touch.

[bobbruce]

4 hours ago, Nomad XIII said:

Yeah this was about 2005, unless my memory is playing tricks definitely a tap 20.

The 40/20 was introduced in 1997 in the ARL. Kick offs and drop outs to touch were also given to the kicking team that year. My recollection was that extending that to the 20M optional restart was introduced in the NRL about 2000. 

 

2005 was Bradford v Leeds. 

[The Rocket]

15 hours ago, Nomad XIII said:

Oh, just re-read my first post and when I said "NRL only for a few years", I meant NRL only until Superleague adopted it. It's in the rule book now. Just looked up the list of Grand Finals and St Helens played in 2002, then not again till 2007, so 2002 would be my guess when the incident I mentioned happened.

I agree it could be used a lot more now. The way players sprint to the 20M line to take the tap as quick as possible, without even checking their team-mates are onside (worst that can happen is a peep-peep and get told nicely to try again). I absolutely think players should practise a long run up and hoofing the ball 50 metres into touch.

One of the things I find fascinating is that the tap, sometimes on the run,  is actually a little kick, the players are required to release the ball, even ever so slightly, when it makes contact with their foot, hence I`ve been referring to it as a `mini-kick`. Doing that on the run, sometimes at almost full speed is a skill in itself.

Once again, happy to be corrected if I am wrong.