Rugby league-could some lessons be learned from cricket?

[Man of Kent]

Hadn’t watched any Hundred games until I caught the last few overs of last night at Trent Bridge.

Parts of the media wanted to write this off before it began but it looks to be a winner to my eye.

What struck me was the delight of the very decent crowd - women hugging, letting themselves go - to their team winning a ‘disposable cricket’ match on a Monday evening.

That tells me they were having a good time regardless of the actual cricket. 

And that’s the lesson for RL - whatever format or event or special jerseys we come up with, try to ensure people have a good time.

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Hadn’t watched any Hundred games until I caught the last few overs of last night at Trent Bridge.

Parts of the media wanted to write this off before it began but it looks to be a winner to my eye.

What struck me was the delight of the very decent crowd - women hugging, letting themselves go - to their team winning a ‘disposable cricket’ match on a Monday evening.

That tells me they were having a good time regardless of the actual cricket. 

And that’s the lesson for RL - whatever format or event or special jerseys we come up with, try to ensure people have a good time.

Yes, I do think this is the biggest thing we need to remember, something we started to  focus on in 1996 but have sometimes slipped back on. This is the sport's entertainment business. I don't believe in staging events purely for the purist. They should be events for everyone, and that means more than opening your ground and playing Rugby on it. 

I don't think we are too bad in general, but I dont see us pushing enough, or being consistent enough. 

[Toby Chopra]

30 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't think we are too bad in general, but I dont see us pushing enough, or being consistent enough. 

I think consistent is the keyword. 

At our best, both in terms of fan experience and the quality of the rugby on the field, I think we're great. 

It's just that both of those are too variable, even just within Superleague. 

So the question for me is how to reduce the variability. Is it by concentrating the talent into fewer teams, maybe in a shorter flagship season - kinda like franchise cricket? There's lots of reasons why this might do more harm than good, I suspect. 

So we have to increase quality at source for the competition we have, both on the field and in the fan experience. Our best clubs are making progress, so how do we cascade that down to others?

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

What struck me was the delight of the very decent crowd

The crowd was 11,000.

Nottinghamshire's average in 2019 was over 12,000.

[Man of Kent]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The crowd was 11,000.

Nottinghamshire's average in 2019 was over 12,000.

Well there you are! 11,000 on a Monday night is very decent.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Man of Kent said:

Well there you are! 11,000 on a Monday night is very decent.

No wonder AFC Wimbledon are £5m short with maths wizards like this.

[Man of Kent]

Just now, gingerjon said:

No wonder AFC Wimbledon are £5m short with maths wizards like this.

Ooh, personal.

Backed the wrong horse again, eh?

[iffleyox]

15 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Moreover, the turkeys of Northants, Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Gloucestershire, Worcestershire etc aren't going to "vote for xmas" as Hela put it and go for a less lucrative FTA incorporating TV deal that they probably won't even play in.

A Worcestershire member writes... 

 

this is why, although I'm not sure it's what you meant, that cricket is the most similar to RL - the decent teams are in the 'wrong' place. Some of those on your list are basket cases but...

If you take Worcestershire (and all of this pre Covid)

• small ground
• one of the few 18 first class counties to run somewhere near a profit
• genuine yo yo side that's too good for the first class second division and usually not good enough for the first 
• sound one day team
• one of the more recently successful T20 Blast sides and the only one (from memory) to get to the final again the year after winning it - and we're not going into the dim and distant history here, this is when the world was normal

Meanwhile you've got Test venues slumming it in the second division and not setting any of the competitions on fire

The issue with the 100 is that it privileges massively the 8 test venues, while cutting the basket cases adrift BUT also taking the likes of Somerset and Worcestershire that supply the players the other teams use, and generally win as many games across the formats as they lose, and shooting them in the back of the head too.

It's like reorganising RL into a 8 team franchise and finding room for Leeds, Hull FC, Wigan, Bradford (for old time's sake), London, Catalans, Newcastle and St Helens.

There'd be rage from some about Bradford and Newcastle being there; probably a shrug that Cas and Wakey have been cut loose, but in the middle of all that they've basically said 'sorry Warrington, you don't fit the profile on location despite your success so for the greater good....'

which is basically what cricket is doing

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Ooh, personal.

Backed the wrong horse again, eh?

Not at all.

But 11,000 on a weekday evening is not a new or unusual circumstance for domestic cricket in this country.

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

A Worcestershire member writes... 

 

this is why, although I'm not sure it's what you meant, that cricket is the most similar to RL - the decent teams are in the 'wrong' place. Some of those on your list are basket cases but...

If you take Worcestershire (and all of this pre Covid)

• small ground
• one of the few 18 first class counties to run somewhere near a profit
• genuine yo yo side that's too good for the first class second division and usually not good enough for the first 
• sound one day team
• one of the more recently successful T20 Blast sides and the only one (from memory) to get to the final again the year after winning it - and we're not going into the dim and distant history here, this is when the world was normal

Meanwhile you've got Test venues slumming it in the second division and not setting any of the competitions on fire

The issue with the 100 is that it privileges massively the 8 test venues, while cutting the basket cases adrift BUT also taking the likes of Somerset and Worcestershire that supply the players the other teams use, and generally win as many games across the formats as they lose, and shooting them in the back of the head too.

It's like reorganising RL into a 8 team franchise and finding room for Leeds, Hull FC, Wigan, Bradford (for old time's sake), London, Catalans, Newcastle and St Helens.

There'd be rage from some about Bradford and Newcastle being there; probably a shrug that Cas and Wakey have been cut loose, but in the middle of all that they've basically said 'sorry Warrington, you don't fit the profile on location despite your success so for the greater good....'

which is basically what cricket is doing

I wouldn't disagree with any of that assessment at all. I do think it isn't totally complete though and is far from unique in Cricket - which is a members only club.

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

It's like reorganising RL into a 8 team franchise and finding room for Leeds, Hull FC, Wigan, Bradford (for old time's sake), London, Catalans, Newcastle and St Helens.

I was thinking about this and I think it's even more extreme than that, really. It's really going back to creating Calder, Manchester, West Yorkshire River Bandits etc.

Only then insisting that Calder isn't connected in any way to any existing club but Wakefield, Castleford and Featherstone have to supply the players for it - and it will play on one of their (but not the other two) grounds.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I was thinking about this and I think it's even more extreme than that, really. It's really going back to creating Calder, Manchester, West Yorkshire River Bandits etc.

Only then insisting that Calder isn't connected in any way to any existing club but Wakefield, Castleford and Featherstone have to supply the players for it - and it will play on one of their (but not the other two) grounds.

The Hundred isn't all cricket, its just how some high ups think Cricket can briefly put its best foot forwards. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Toby Chopra said:

I think consistent is the keyword. 

At our best, both in terms of fan experience and the quality of the rugby on the field, I think we're great. 

It's just that both of those are too variable, even just within Superleague. 

So the question for me is how to reduce the variability. Is it by concentrating the talent into fewer teams, maybe in a shorter flagship season - kinda like franchise cricket? There's lots of reasons why this might do more harm than good, I suspect. 

So we have to increase quality at source for the competition we have, both on the field and in the fan experience. Our best clubs are making progress, so how do we cascade that down to others?

I think this is one of the areas where SLE should be a 'thing' in that it should be an organisation looking to share best practice etc on stuff like this. 

As a Wire fan I find the experience for some of the games great. I think the package is quite nice, decent presentation, live music in the concourse, better food and drink than ever - for some of the bigger games you get the fire throwers and the light shows, but then there are some games where it feels lower key. But generally pretty good. 

I think we lost our way a few years back at the major events, we clearly cut the budget - the mascot olympics was an example at Magic Weekend - it used to be a part of it, clearly aimed at the kids and younger fans, and some great fanzones - now they are cut back and it has become a huge pee-up, I think the event is poorer for that tbh. Once they started going with Rugby AM crew for fanzones it went massively downhill.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

The Hundred isn't all cricket, its just how some high ups think Cricket can briefly put its best foot forwards. 

Wakefield, Castleford and Featherstone would carry on under this system too.

But Calder would be the franchise that got the Sky money.

[RigbyLuger]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

. I think we lost our way a few years back at the major events, we clearly cut the budget - the mascot olympics was an example at Magic Weekend - it used to be a part of it, clearly aimed at the kids and younger fans, and some great fanzones - now they are cut back and it has become a huge pee-up, I think the event is poorer for that tbh. Once they started going with Rugby AM crew for fanzones it went massively downhill.

Having mascots doing anything is more entertaining than being shouted at by Wagga and crew. They may appeal to a certain market, though their viewing figures and lack of a show anymore show that's not a massive one, but they wouldn't appeal to a wider audience.

We need to find a buzz, and it may be accidental when we do, but whatever we do at the moment isn't working, and wasn't pre-covid.

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Once they started going with Rugby AM crew for fanzones it went massively downhill.

Now I'm getting flashbacks to a damp, empty carpark outside the London Stadium after the Kiwis match.

So thanks for that.

God, that was terrible.

[Dave T]

Just now, RigbyLuger said:

Having mascots doing anything is more entertaining than being shouted at by Wagga and crew. They may appeal to a certain market, though their viewing figures and lack of a show anymore show that's not a massive one, but they wouldn't appeal to a wider audience.

We need to find a buzz, and it may be accidental when we do, but whatever we do at the moment isn't working, and wasn't pre-covid.

I do think the disjointed element of the season will be having a big impact too. I won't be making plans around Rugby at the moment as there are a lot of cancellations, i'll pick up the odd game on an ad hoc basis. 

It isn't surprising me in the slightest that people are hesitant.

[iffleyox]

15 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I wouldn't disagree with any of that assessment at all. I do think it isn't totally complete though and is far from unique in Cricket - which is a members only club.

but, and this is where the RFL should be pricking their ears up, first class cricket isn't just a members only club is it? Durham and Hampshire are the only two first class counties that aren't themselves members clubs... (there's also the anomaly of Middlesex being a members club that doesn't own a ground but that's by the by). 

The Hundred is a canny way of putting the ECB in charge of everything and bypassing its members, who are overwhelmingly in thrall to their members...

As gingerjon says, this is franchising that cuts out the clubs - see also Welsh RU when they brought in the regions over the head of the Principality Premiership 'yes of course Pontypridd/Bridgend/Ebbw Vale fan, you can still go and watch Pontypridd/Bridgend/Ebbw Vale, with their rich history that has given so much to us all (they just won't have any money).' 

 

[Dave T]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Now I'm getting flashbacks to a damp, empty carpark outside the London Stadium after the Kiwis match.

So thanks for that.

God, that was terrible.

yes, i took a newbie along to that, I was very, very embarrassed. 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

but, and this is where the RFL should be pricking their ears up, first class cricket isn't just a members only club is it? Durham and Hampshire are the only two first class counties that aren't themselves members clubs... (there's also the anomaly of Middlesex being a members club that doesn't own a ground but that's by the by). 

The Hundred is a canny way of putting the ECB in charge of everything and bypassing its members, who are overwhelmingly in thrall to their members...

As gingerjon says, this is franchising that cuts out the clubs - see also Welsh RU when they brought in the regions over the head of the Principality Premiership 'yes of course Pontypridd/Bridgend/Ebbw Vale fan, you can still go and watch Pontypridd/Bridgend/Ebbw Vale, with their rich history that has given so much to us all (they just won't have any money).' 

 

Yes - I think you're right. The Welsh RU (and Scottish RU) regional set-up would be the nearest equivalent.

[iffleyox]

18 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I was thinking about this and I think it's even more extreme than that, really. It's really going back to creating Calder, Manchester, West Yorkshire River Bandits etc.

Only then insisting that Calder isn't connected in any way to any existing club but Wakefield, Castleford and Featherstone have to supply the players for it - and it will play on one of their (but not the other two) grounds.

It's very like that - 'right then Worcestershire and Warwickshire, we know you're bitter rivals who actually probably have the closest English cricket comes to a relationship of open and overt hatred of each other but, this Birmingham Phoenix team, its going to play instead of both of you but at Edgbaston. No, it's definitely not continuity Warwickshire. No, it's for a new audience of people who are new to the sport. No, it's not just the same faces in the Hollies stand, just fewer of them.... quick....zoom the camera in on the band...'

now try that in Hull, or between Leeds and Bradford.

 

 

[iffleyox]

ass an aside, full marks to them for Birmingham Phoenix. While to some the Phoenix is a mythical symbol of rebirth and renewal, in *Birmingham* it's perhaps best associated with the Phoenix Four. And that's not in the dim and distant history either.

Laugh? I nearly did.

 

 

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

but, and this is where the RFL should be pricking their ears up, first class cricket isn't just a members only club is it? Durham and Hampshire are the only two first class counties that aren't themselves members clubs... (there's also the anomaly of Middlesex being a members club that doesn't own a ground but that's by the by). 

The Hundred is a canny way of putting the ECB in charge of everything and bypassing its members, who are overwhelmingly in thrall to their members...

As gingerjon says, this is franchising that cuts out the clubs - see also Welsh RU when they brought in the regions over the head of the Principality Premiership 'yes of course Pontypridd/Bridgend/Ebbw Vale fan, you can still go and watch Pontypridd/Bridgend/Ebbw Vale, with their rich history that has given so much to us all (they just won't have any money).' 

The Hundred is for a month though? 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The Hundred is for a month though? 

In cricketing terms it is the prime month of the year with bright evenings, warm days, less chance of rain - and school holidays.

[iffleyox]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The Hundred is for a month though? 

It is, but putting it in high summer has forced first class cricket to the margins (April/Sept) which over time is going to cock up the test team. And forced the Royal London to become basically a second XI competition, so God knows what impact that's going to have on the national team too. 

Loss of our three best batsmen to the Hundred nearly torpedoed Worcestershire in the one day comp at the weekend - it was only a rear guard by Leach that saw us win.

Essentially it's causing problems for clubs left right and centre. Actually, it's more specific than that. The test ground sides are laughing because they're getting cricket played. The basket case sides are ok because they're sailing on regardless and unaffected with the cash in their pocket. It's the Somersets and Worcestershires who are good sides without test grounds that are losing their players to the franchises.

Essentially it's a nice bit of divide and rule - to explain in RFL terms, where the SL, Champ and L1 clubs are the (more numerous) equivalent of the 18 first class counties, the Hundred is great if you're in SL or L1, and a nightmare if you're in the Championship.