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Rugby league-could some lessons be learned from cricket?


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11 minutes ago, phiggins said:

I think the win predictor is a better fit for Cricket than Rugby, because there's no way of saying who is "winning" during a game of cricket.

I could see what Sky were trying with the margin meter, but it didn't really land, because they only showed updates to it after a try which kind of defeated the point. Maybe something shown persistently to give an indicator of who is on top at that point might work better.

Margin Meter worked absolutely fine as a concept, it was presented terribly by the pundits. And the fans were miserable. It did take into consideration various elements, possession, territory, current score etc. 

Even if it had been presented as a half-time discussion point - amalgamating all of the stats and saying that the predicted result is Wigan by 10 for example. I get frustrated that we see stats at half time, but then not at fulltime, it's like they do it because it has been done since the 80's or whatever, but don't take it seriously.

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20 minutes ago, phiggins said:

I think the win predictor is a better fit for Cricket than Rugby, because there's no way of saying who is "winning" during a game of cricket.

 

There really is. Winviz is often a bit wild, but the models bookmakers use for in-play betting will give a very good indicator of a team's chances at any given time.

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10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Margin Meter worked absolutely fine as a concept, it was presented terribly by the pundits. And the fans were miserable. It did take into consideration various elements, possession, territory, current score etc. 

Even if it had been presented as a half-time discussion point - amalgamating all of the stats and saying that the predicted result is Wigan by 10 for example. I get frustrated that we see stats at half time, but then not at fulltime, it's like they do it because it has been done since the 80's or whatever, but don't take it seriously.

It's because we present the game, and have done for years, as if it doesn't have any tactics.

Cricket, even in The Hundred, is the exact opposite. There is endless talk about tactics, usually backed up with stats. (Although, it is interesting, to hear some detractors claim that T20 and other short forms have no tactics too.)

The Margin Meter was really badly done. If it had been used to say, "Based on all that has happened, Wigan should be six up but, look, they're 12 down ... so what have London done so well to go against the stats?" then it would have been helpful. But no one at Sky wants to talk like that so it was presented as, "Look at Phil Clarke's latest bust gadget ..."

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2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's because we present the game, and have done for years, as if it doesn't have any tactics.

Cricket, even in The Hundred, is the exact opposite. There is endless talk about tactics, usually backed up with stats. (Although, it is interesting, to hear some detractors claim that T20 and other short forms have no tactics too.)

The Margin Meter was really badly done. If it had been used to say, "Based on all that has happened, Wigan should be six up but, look, they're 12 down ... so what have London done so well to go against the stats?" then it would have been helpful. But no one at Sky wants to talk like that so it was presented as, "Look at Phil Clarke's latest bust gadget ..."

That's exactly it, it should be a discussion point, and can absolutely add to the tactical discussion 

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Not read the whole thread but i've seen a few trying to play down the success of The Hundred been in part due to 'lots of free tickets' - does anybody actually have any evidence of that? Most prices for adults are relatively in line with RL and kids tickets been as cheap as they are is just common sense really. The first weekend back of unrestricted crowds saw RL massively beaten on attendance by a new game/format with completely new teams. This should be a worry to SL and going back to the thread title, yes RL could learn a lot from cricket! 

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Just now, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Not read the whole thread but i've seen a few trying to play down the success of The Hundred been in part due to 'lots of free tickets' - does anybody actually have any evidence of that? 

It's been covered by ESPNCricinfo. For example, in the opening women's game, at least 75% of the tickets were giveaways.

Today's double-header, just checked, has higher than I've seen ticket prices ranging from £16-£30 for adults. Be interesting to see the take up of that.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's been covered by ESPNCricinfo. For example, in the opening women's game, at least 75% of the tickets were giveaways.

Today's double-header, just checked, has higher than I've seen ticket prices ranging from £16-£30 for adults. Be interesting to see the take up of that.

That's interesting - it would appear each stadium has it's own ticketing policy. Headingley for example didn't offer any free tickets (believe me I tried haha) to adults but the admission was for both games in full. 

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Isn’t the Hundred just T20 with a few more bobs and whistles, the odd rule change to shorten the game?

Its hardly some mass of new creation other than the made up teams.

Isn’t the ‘appealing for a new audience’ merely a fig leaf for the intention of flogging this trademarked competition format to India and Australia.

Be interesting to see if they ditch the already successful IPL and Big Bash League.

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12 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Not read the whole thread but i've seen a few trying to play down the success of The Hundred been in part due to 'lots of free tickets' - does anybody actually have any evidence of that? Most prices for adults are relatively in line with RL and kids tickets been as cheap as they are is just common sense really. The first weekend back of unrestricted crowds saw RL massively beaten on attendance by a new game/format with completely new teams. This should be a worry to SL and going back to the thread title, yes RL could learn a lot from cricket! 

Tickets for adults are lower than SL games at the bottom end.

At Manchester tonight it's £30, £25 and £16 for adults. £5 for kids. For lesser games it starts at £12 for adults.

At Warrington tonight it's  £31, £27, £25 and £22. £10 for kids. That is standard pricing and doesn't drop below the £22.

As an aside, I enquired about hospitality at a Hundred game in a couple of weeks for my birthday. Decent prices - but the website rather lacks in details and the guy I emailed was no more helpful. Trying to understand food and drink options and timings is too difficult to bother.

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Just now, Dave T said:

Tickets for adults are lower than SL games at the bottom end.

At Manchester tonight it's £30, £25 and £16 for adults. £5 for kids. For lesser games it starts at £12 for adults.

At Warrington tonight it's  £31, £27, £25 and £22. £10 for kids. That is standard pricing and doesn't drop below the £22.

As an aside, I enquired about hospitality at a Hundred game in a couple of weeks for my birthday. Decent prices - but the website rather lacks in details and the guy I emailed was no more helpful. Trying to understand food and drink options and timings is too difficult to bother.

The Hundred was even cheaper in the pre-sale.

I could have got adult tickets for £10 and £5.

I *believe* some county members/mailing list subscribers are still being sent similar links.

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56 minutes ago, Dr Tim Whatley said:

There really is. Winviz is often a bit wild, but the models bookmakers use for in-play betting will give a very good indicator of a team's chances at any given time.

That's my point. For the average fan, you're not going to have access to such models, so you're relying on your own opinion / hunch. By displaying the win predictor, you make those models available to people, which is why I said it was a good fit for cricket.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I get frustrated that we see stats at half time, but then not at fulltime, it's like they do it because it has been done since the 80's or whatever, but don't take it seriously.

I put a comment on one of the other threads about other stats that I'd like to see which I presume they could get from GPS data that the teams will already be recording. 

Could we see biggest hits and fastest speeds of the players throughout the game, for example? People keep talking about building up new stars, but there seems to be precious little effort being made to do it. Identifying the speedsters and big hitters might help to highlight some more exciting attributes of the players than the bog standard stats we've seen for the past 25 years.

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Here is a tweet from James Buttler better known by his Twitter nom de plume Cricket Badger

Read this and substitute the two words Rugby League for Cricket and he is spot on. You might not learn any lesson but can identify similar problems.

Quote

Following an earlier tweet some people have asked what I'd change about county cricket. My biggest gripe with cricket in general is short-termism. People that run cricket should have an eye on 50 years time but all too often changes happen to gain instant impacts and boost CVs

People that run the game try and make their mark not necessarily improve the sport long term. Too often when changes don't have instant impact they change again. Domestic formats rarely stay the same year on yeàr. The changers are often in other jobs by the time it fails.

So, too much short term planning and not enough eye on leaving the game stronger than they found it. When changes are made they should be thought through, debated properly and should be for a long term impact rather than making the changer appear like they've done something.

https://twitter.com/cricket_badger/status/1420115041437765637

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When the pinch comes the common people will turn out to be more intelligent than the clever ones. I certainly hope so.

George Orwell
 

 

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7 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

That's interesting - it would appear each stadium has it's own ticketing policy. Headingley for example didn't offer any free tickets (believe me I tried haha) to adults but the admission was for both games in full. 

Headingley was far from full for The Hundred game. It was just over 50% for the men’s game and about a third full for the Women’s match

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The last sport I'd want to copy is cricket. This looks like another attempt to get the yoof interested, but they're just not. The only reason it's given endless coverage in the media is because broadcasting is full of middle aged, white, middle class men; cricket's target audience. 

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2 hours ago, londonrlfan said:

 The only reason it's given endless coverage in the media is because broadcasting is full of middle aged, white, middle class men; cricket's target audience. 

Interesting.

And what is Rugby League's "target audience"? (I'm asking, because I have no idea, and would love to know)

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On 28/07/2021 at 11:30, gingerjon said:

The Hundred was even cheaper in the pre-sale.

I could have got adult tickets for £10 and £5.

I *believe* some county members/mailing list subscribers are still being sent similar links.

Was said to be 27,000 in Lords last night. I'd suggest the RFL would struggle to shift that many tickets even at those prices for anything bar a final, and maybe day 1 of Magic Weekend.

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18 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Was said to be 27,000 in Lords last night. I'd suggest the RFL would struggle to shift that many tickets even at those prices for anything bar a final, and maybe day 1 of Magic Weekend.

Quite possibly.

But cricket shifts those numbers and more for domestic and international cricket - at higher prices with less marketing spend - multiple times each year.

So I'm still not seeing anything particularly useful for RL to be learnt.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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27 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Quite possibly.

But cricket shifts those numbers and more for domestic and international cricket - at higher prices with less marketing spend - multiple times each year.

So I'm still not seeing anything particularly useful for RL to be learnt.

I'll have to take your word on attendances as I'm only working on memory rather than anything documented, but I was under the impression that the test grounds would probably be full for derby games (Middlesex/Surrey, Lancs/Yorks, Warks/Worcs), but not so much for other game. While the 50 over cup would get nothing like that.

On the pricing. Lancs membership for all t20 home games is around £80. So not much more, if at all more expensive.

I think the thing RL should be thinking about is, how have they created a competition where every game is an event in itself? That doesn't mean RL should jump straight into a franchise competition, but maybe look at the matchday experience for example?

 

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33 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Quite possibly.

But cricket shifts those numbers and more for domestic and international cricket - at higher prices with less marketing spend - multiple times each year.

So I'm still not seeing anything particularly useful for RL to be learnt.

Wait until after this big meeting today 👀👀👀

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9 minutes ago, phiggins said:

I'll have to take your word on attendances as I'm only working on memory rather than anything documented, but I was under the impression that the test grounds would probably be full for derby games (Middlesex/Surrey, Lancs/Yorks, Warks/Worcs), but not so much for other game. While the 50 over cup would get nothing like that.

On the pricing. Lancs membership for all t20 home games is around £80. So not much more, if at all more expensive.

I think the thing RL should be thinking about is, how have they created a competition where every game is an event in itself? That doesn't mean RL should jump straight into a franchise competition, but maybe look at the matchday experience for example?

 

Agree with you a consistent, quality, matchday experience. I mentioned it earlier how, for example, every venue at The Hundred, is set up essentially the same with the same price bands, same family/non alcohol stands and guaranteed merchandise/concessions etc.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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