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So What's The Plan From Here?


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One constant about the world is change. You can't keep doing the same thing or you risk getting left behind.

When SL arrived in the UK in the 90's, it was a shot in the arm for the game. Since then, the game has done nothing new, thinking if it worked decades ago, it works now. Society is in a constant state of flux so observing and adapting is essential. The set up needs to adapt but the SL clubs aren't. Toronto should have been nurtured and Toulouse needs to be invited to SL. I'd love to see less SL games and a geniune international calendar. 

When only three countries were strong in international RL, they needed each other. The emergence of Pacific nations (not achieved by what Australia did Gus, but through emigration) means there are now several genuine top nations. Australia and NZ don't need their third partner like they did. By England putting all its eggs in the Aust/NZ/Eng basket ignored Europe. Change has marginalised England. 

How will RL in England react to this new international situation? A credible and innovative NH international programme. I'd like to see the NH divided into groups of four nations, playing each other once within their group (just three games each). The Group A winner is the NH champ, the loser drops to group B. Depending on how many groups are formed (depending on funds as usual), the other group(s) have one side promoted and one relegated. Each team has something to play for and a pathway to rise up the ranks if good enough. It could expand as success and finances allow.  

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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1 hour ago, RayCee said:

One constant about the world is change. You can't keep doing the same thing or you risk getting left behind.

When SL arrived in the UK in the 90's, it was a shot in the arm for the game. Since then, the game has done nothing new, thinking if it worked decades ago, it works now. Society is in a constant state of flux so observing and adapting is essential. The set up needs to adapt but the SL clubs aren't. Toronto should have been nurtured and Toulouse needs to be invited to SL. I'd love to see less SL games and a geniune international calendar. 

When only three countries were strong in international RL, they needed each other. The emergence of Pacific nations (not achieved by what Australia did Gus, but through emigration) means there are now several genuine top nations. Australia and NZ don't need their third partner like they did. By England putting all its eggs in the Aust/NZ/Eng basket ignored Europe. Change has marginalised England. 

How will RL in England react to this new international situation? A credible and innovative NH international programme. I'd like to see the NH divided into groups of four nations, playing each other once within their group (just three games each). The Group A winner is the NH champ, the loser drops to group B. Depending on how many groups are formed (depending on funds as usual), the other group(s) have one side promoted and one relegated. Each team has something to play for and a pathway to rise up the ranks if good enough. It could expand as success and finances allow.  

The NH program will absolutely be crucial moving forward. What you've described re P&R is pretty well what the revamped Rugby League European Championship was meant to look like beginning in 2020, however due to covid it did not take place last year. At the bottom of this wikipedia article you can see the teams and how they were allocated in tiers A-D. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_League_European_Championship#2020-present:_Relegation 

There's only one problem with the championship currently, England seem to believe they are above participating (sounds eerily similar to another major nation doesn't it). In fact, England hasn't participated in the European Championships in any form since 2004. While an optimist would hope they'd look to support elite-level international competitions in their own backyard moving forward, I daresay we're more likely to see England v Combined Nations again before we'll see England take their place in the European Championships. Would love nothing more than for them to prove me wrong though.

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25 minutes ago, UTK said:

The NH program will absolutely be crucial moving forward. What you've described re P&R is pretty well what the revamped Rugby League European Championship was meant to look like beginning in 2020, however due to covid it did not take place last year. At the bottom of this wikipedia article you can see the teams and how they were allocated in tiers A-D. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_League_European_Championship#2020-present:_Relegation 

There's only one problem with the championship currently, England seem to believe they are above participating (sounds eerily similar to another major nation doesn't it). In fact, England hasn't participated in the European Championships in any form since 2004. While an optimist would hope they'd look to support elite-level international competitions in their own backyard moving forward, I daresay we're more likely to see England v Combined Nations again before we'll see England take their place in the European Championships. Would love nothing more than for them to prove me wrong though.

I didn't much notice the 2020 comp but yes, it is close but as you say without England. I could have saved myself some writing and posted the link. 🙄

I'd like to think England's snubbing of Europe in favour of Aus/NZ was money driven rather than it being beneath them. probably a bit of both. Whatever the motive, it's time England had a reality check and accept the SH may not be as welcoming as before. 

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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Stop treating France like Australia has treated England. I’d start by looking at a genuine annual European program with junior tournaments as well at 16s, 18s & 20s.

Also look at how the club game can accelerate the strengthening of France, Wales and other European nations. Offer incentives to get more French players in to Super League academies & first team squads.

It won’t happen overnight but England really  need another strong nation or two behind them in the Northern Hemisphere. Australia unfortunately has control over NZ and we’ll most likely see NRL clubs try to withhold lots of Pacific players as well.

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9 hours ago, tonyvikinggee said:

Rugby League is just a frustrating sport to support.

From top to the bottom its run by the wrong kind of people, who are generally running their little corner for selfish reasons. 

The game needs a Root and Branch review, followed by action. There are many ways the sport could go, many ways we could both improve the product and improve the match day experience. But watching SL now is less entertaining and less of a spectacle than it was 10 years ago. There is no drive in the sport, not from the clubs, not from the SL and not from the RFL.

The SL is littered with clubs that do nothing for the sport, that are a drain on its finances and make it more difficult to market to sponsors and broadcasters. 

Close the Shop, Set targets for playing in SL based on Minimum support levels, Full grade 1 academy as a minimum. Good facilities. you dont make the grade, you dont play SL. You are a Champ Club and you have worked to attain the above minimum standards. Welcome to the top table, dont worry about relegation, Work to build your club. Dont panic buy a squad, build on what you have and grow.  Take the long term view. 

 

This Year

Leigh Out, Toulouse IN

Warnings For

Huddersfield ( crowds )

Wakefield ( crowds, Facilities )

Salford ( Crowds, Facilities, Academy )

 

If a club in the Championship attained the required level of support, with the right facilities and a commitment to run a grade 1 academy. Goodbye Salford Hello new team.

Rinse and repeat until you have 12 clubs that meet the criteria, no matter how long it takes. Stop messing about and worrying about upsetting Bob from a Village in Yorkshire/Lancashire who's grandad used to tell him stories of ( insert team name here ) being good once upon a time. 

Or do something completely different, But get a strategy and a focus and push it. no constant moving of goalposts and pandering to individual clubs. 

 

So Castleford,s ground is now ok but Wakefield,s isn't?

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As for 2022 if any ‘plans’ had been made with Aus or NZ cancel them. I believe NZ were due to tour the UK, so instead of planning that only to have NZ potentially pull out last minute - scrap it early and plan something not involving Australia or NZ.

I’d like to see a Euro cup, played in tiers, for example:

A - England, France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Italy

B - Greece, Russia, Spain, Serbia

C - Regional tournaments with a promotion playoff.

Invite some Pacific Islands or North American teams to tour as well if possible.
 

Jamaica in particular could possibly become a pretty strong opponent with all their heritage players available.

You can bet there will be a Pacific Cup played in Aus so something to match that would be good. Australia has played their cards and England should be looking at opportunities to get some local opposition up to scratch or they really risk becoming isolated. England will probably put 50+ on all those bar a full strength France or heritage Ireland & Scotland but big deal. Some compromises need to be made, England haven’t played weaker opposition regularly for a while, that mentality needs to change.

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2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Lot of this is on the money. Any 4 nations tournament would have to have England (for TV purposes) and I would invite Jamaica in. 3 games and a final at the top level. Plus a relegation playoff for the bottom team except in years where Jamaica need to go and qualify for World cups. 

France and England won´t get relegated so at least there is certainty for FTA tv company. Was looking at figures for BARB and think we could sell this to Channel 5 and easily do more than their current Friday or Saturday night programming. 

I think Jamaica could become quite a strong international side over the next few years. Let them play regular games against European nations as well as the Americas cup. This could create a lot of interest in Jamaica and in the Jamaican communities in the UK. The RFL could support this by developing the junior game in these communities which would potentially provide more players who are eligible for Jamaica in the future. The same could be done with Nigeria also. 

Adding those two nations to the four home nations plus France gives the NH a viable competition to build on without having to rely on the NRL for players

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One of the things that frustrates me the most about the sport is the constant change. We tinker around with pointless format and rule changes, often reversing them very quickly when we realise they are ridiculous. We somehow seem to think we just haven't stumbled on the perfect structure and that once we find it we will take off.

Then, when we do something right, we pat ourselves on the back and do nothing to capitalise on it. An example would be the RLWC 2013 semi final at Wembley. Big crowd, lots of locals, brilliant match. And we don't play another international in London for 2 years. I've written a blogpost recently on this very subject. 

Our priorities are all over the place and until we get those in order and end our infighting, I struggle to see how we grow.

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1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

We can either pack it up or we get serious about building our own baby. What we need is long term lock in. 

If Jam knew that they were getting three games end of season (one vs Eng, France and Wales/Ireland plus the chance of a final, you can get some proper sponsors to carry the one year they need to qualify for World Cup.  

Likewise Ireland. Go and play USA every year mid season in states.  Build a brand for our Northern Hemisphere sides. 

England as well. Mid season game vs Celtic Nations then in a Northern Hemisphere 4 nations.  Thats 3 guaranteed home games a year.  5 on FTA tv and again, you can build a brand.  If USA and Canada do get a semi pro tournament going they should be rewarded with France and Eng going over for games.  

Sponsors and tv partners know what they are getting and RFL can give themselves plenty of time to market the games. 

An ideal situation would be a combination of NH tournaments and tournaments involving SH sides plus mid season test matches during a 4 year cycle.

Year 1 - NH tournament.

Home Nations and France plus Jamaica and Nigeria.

Year 2 - Nations Cup.  

8 teams - 6 Oceania Cup teams plus top 2 NH teams. (Can still be played without Aus and NZ. Just draft in next 2 NH teams if Aus and NZ don't play).

WC qualifiers can also be held for all the other nations.

Year 3 - NH tournament as in year 1.

Year 4 - WC.

Mid season tests each year

Eng vs France

Ireland vs USA

Scotland vs Wales

Jamaica vs Nigeria.

Mix and match these teams to play more than one test if needed.

 

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A plan? Would be nice wouldn't it. We're not far off where clubs will be looking to retain players for next season and could have huge funding cuts. Championship and League 1 have been excellent this year whereas Superleague is a complete mess. Due to mismanagement at the very top of the game the rest will suffer. No plan other than self interest. 

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On 27/07/2021 at 12:57, jim_57 said:

As for 2022 if any ‘plans’ had been made with Aus or NZ cancel them. I believe NZ were due to tour the UK, so instead of planning that only to have NZ potentially pull out last minute - scrap it early and plan something not involving Australia or NZ.

I’d like to see a Euro cup, played in tiers, for example:

A - England, France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Italy

B - Greece, Russia, Spain, Serbia

C - Regional tournaments with a promotion playoff.

Invite some Pacific Islands or North American teams to tour as well if possible.
 

Jamaica in particular could possibly become a pretty strong opponent with all their heritage players available.

You can bet there will be a Pacific Cup played in Aus so something to match that would be good. Australia has played their cards and England should be looking at opportunities to get some local opposition up to scratch or they really risk becoming isolated. England will probably put 50+ on all those bar a full strength France or heritage Ireland & Scotland but big deal. Some compromises need to be made, England haven’t played weaker opposition regularly for a while, that mentality needs to change.

Love this idea! I would definitely get Jamaica, USA and Canada involved in the tournament with at least England, Wales and France on the top table as it were. We wouldn't need to worry about NRL clubs releasing players for a tournament of that sense, if anything it would make it more competitive. 

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On 27/07/2021 at 22:18, OriginalMrC said:

A plan? Would be nice wouldn't it. We're not far off where clubs will be looking to retain players for next season and could have huge funding cuts. Championship and League 1 have been excellent this year whereas Superleague is a complete mess. Due to mismanagement at the very top of the game the rest will suffer. No plan other than self interest. 

What’s the testing like in the lower levels? I genuinely don’t know in Rugby League but it wasn’t mandatory to be tested if you were outside of the professional game in Football during last season, so I was wondering if it was similar outside of Super League because I don’t believe Covid discriminates against semi-pro Rugby League players. 

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On 27/07/2021 at 22:07, JM2010 said:

An ideal situation would be a combination of NH tournaments and tournaments involving SH sides plus mid season test matches during a 4 year cycle.

Year 1 - NH tournament.

Home Nations and France plus Jamaica and Nigeria.

Year 2 - Nations Cup.  

8 teams - 6 Oceania Cup teams plus top 2 NH teams. (Can still be played without Aus and NZ. Just draft in next 2 NH teams if Aus and NZ don't play).

WC qualifiers can also be held for all the other nations.

Year 3 - NH tournament as in year 1.

Year 4 - WC.

Mid season tests each year

Eng vs France

Ireland vs USA

Scotland vs Wales

Jamaica vs Nigeria.

Mix and match these teams to play more than one test if needed.

 

Call me greedy, but this still isn't enough for me. I think there should be annual mid-season tournaments and end-of-season tournaments. I agree with the posters who have highlighted the need for an annual tournament to provide consistency for broadcasters, and like the idea of a European championship with groups of 4 and P&R from each group. In an ideal world, this could be played mid-season to minimise travelling and wouldn't get as lost in an Autumn of Premier League football and RU internationals. We keep talking about creating stars for the game, but it's only international RL that has the potential to create household names IMO.

Another point which has been raised many times on here is that Super League is just too long. Every year the interest starts to wane around July/August as the loop fixtures kick in, before it picks up again for the play-offs. Given that the 1895 Cup now offers lower league clubs a real possibility of going to Wembley, I would completely restructure the cup into a Champions League format based on league positions from the previous season. This would help to guarantee every club a minimum number of home fixtures, and you could cut Super League down and bump up Sky's content with the equivalent number of CC games. It would also hopefully break the monotony of one overly long comp starting in Feb and finishing in October.

The bottom line is though that none of this can happen without a change of governance in the running of the game. And unfortunately I can't ever see the Super League clubs wanting to relinquish power until it's too late and the game has withered beyond all recognition.

When I saw last week's press release from Wigan about their new overseas signings for next season, my heart sank as it encapsulated how far the UK game has fallen in the past few years. 20 years ago, Wigan were signing genuine world class international players in the likes of Steve Renouf, Adrian Lam, Matthew Johns etc. Even 10 years ago they were signing players like Ryan Hoffman and Jeff Lima. Where are the players who are going to get the bums on seats? Unfortunately, in most cases the answer is the NRL or RU. And the game doesn't seem to be addressing the problems that are causing this.

 

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6 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Call me greedy, but this still isn't enough for me. I think there should be annual mid-season tournaments and end-of-season tournaments. I agree with the posters who have highlighted the need for an annual tournament to provide consistency for broadcasters, and like the idea of a European championship with groups of 4 and P&R from each group. In an ideal world, this could be played mid-season to minimise travelling and wouldn't get as lost in an Autumn of Premier League football and RU internationals. We keep talking about creating stars for the game, but it's only international RL that has the potential to create household names IMO.

Another point which has been raised many times on here is that Super League is just too long. Every year the interest starts to wane around July/August as the loop fixtures kick in, before it picks up again for the play-offs. Given that the 1895 Cup now offers lower league clubs a real possibility of going to Wembley, I would completely restructure the cup into a Champions League format based on league positions from the previous season. This would help to guarantee every club a minimum number of home fixtures, and you could cut Super League down and bump up Sky's content with the equivalent number of CC games. It would also hopefully break the monotony of one overly long comp starting in Feb and finishing in October.

The bottom line is though that none of this can happen without a change of governance in the running of the game. And unfortunately I can't ever see the Super League clubs wanting to relinquish power until it's too late and the game has withered beyond all recognition.

When I saw last week's press release from Wigan about their new overseas signings for next season, my heart sank as it encapsulated how far the UK game has fallen in the past few years. 20 years ago, Wigan were signing genuine world class international players in the likes of Steve Renouf, Adrian Lam, Matthew Johns etc. Even 10 years ago they were signing players like Ryan Hoffman and Jeff Lima. Where are the players who are going to get the bums on seats? Unfortunately, in most cases the answer is the NRL or RU. And the game doesn't seem to be addressing the problems that are causing this.

 

It's not greedy at all. I completely agree that we should have even more than I suggested. I was just being mindful that the self interest of SL clubs wouldn't allow any more. 

Ideally mid season would have a Euro format as suggested, an Americas championship and a MEA championship with the end of season having NH tournaments either side of a WC and a tournament for SH sides and the top NH sides sandwiched in between the NH tournaments.

I like the CC idea too. Drop the loop fixtures and have a group format in the CC with the SL clubs and any clubs that qualify through to that stage. I would also bring the top 6 clubs from Elite 1 into the CC at the same time as Championship clubs.

Lastly an international 9s circuit could be introduced in both the NH and SH with a combined tournament every couple of years. A lot of people want RL 9s in the Olympics but we don't even play it 

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3 hours ago, JM2010 said:

A lot of people want RL 9s in the Olympics but we don't even play it 

Have we got the player pool for 9s? I mean to do it properly? 

The risk is it becomes the cheap way into international competition for some smaller nations (as 7s has) which means they don't then take or fund XIII seriously.

Meanwhile 9s as a circuit would take away players and fans *potentially* in England

I quite like the idea of 9s, but I can't stress enough how much in the men's game RU's relative numbers of players and interested members of the public masks the fact that 7s is divergent in terms of both players and fans. You do now get people who only watch or play 7s at the top level. It might be a nice problem to have, but while it *might* bring in a new audience, it *could* cannibalise the existing one.

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13 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

What’s the testing like in the lower levels? I genuinely don’t know in Rugby League but it wasn’t mandatory to be tested if you were outside of the professional game in Football during last season, so I was wondering if it was similar outside of Super League because I don’t believe Covid discriminates against semi-pro Rugby League players. 

I think its weekly. Players also have to isolate if pinged by the NHS app, even if they've tested negative 

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2 hours ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

I see Manchester United have called off a friendly because of an outbreak at the club, perhaps a sign of things to come in other sports.

Nottingham Forest have cancelled two this week as well. 

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I think the answer to the OP is that there isn't a plan. Whether the WC goes ahead or not I don't think anything was planned for next year and beyond. Other than WCs is there even an International calendar?

On a domestic front nobody seems to know what's going to happen below SL when the new Sky contract starts.

And as far as expansion, junior development and a plan for the game in Wales, Scotland and Ireland goes then the only people whoever make plans for that is us lot on here

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9 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

I think its weekly. Players also have to isolate if pinged by the NHS app, even if they've tested negative 

Twice a week. Or more, obviously.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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2 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think the answer to the OP is that there isn't a plan. Whether the WC goes ahead or not I don't think anything was planned for next year and beyond. Other than WCs is there even an International calendar?

On a domestic front nobody seems to know what's going to happen below SL when the new Sky contract starts.

And as far as expansion, junior development and a plan for the game in Wales, Scotland and Ireland goes then the only people whoever make plans for that is us lot on here

The reference to a plan in the OP was to emphasise RL hasn't got one. It would be logical that the game in the NH would wake up to the fact they need to start planning things, especially at international level. Now at least they now know it's probably a plan without SH RL. 

 

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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On 29/07/2021 at 10:38, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

When I saw last week's press release from Wigan about their new overseas signings for next season, my heart sank as it encapsulated how far the UK game has fallen in the past few years. 

Where are the players who are going to get the bums on seats? Unfortunately, in most cases the answer is the NRL or RU. And the game doesn't seem to be addressing the problems that are causing this.

 

This. 100%.

The drop in level is quite scary, yet still you find people on here saying it's not that bad, and the League is still a good standard etc. As you say, it is quite obvious that 'bums on seats' players are now playing elsewhere, and that is not going to change.

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9 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

This. 100%.

The drop in level is quite scary, yet still you find people on here saying it's not that bad, and the League is still a good standard etc. As you say, it is quite obvious that 'bums on seats' players are now playing elsewhere, and that is not going to change.

 

If it's ever going to change, there has got to be a plan on how to get there. With no plan there is no hope of change.

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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12 hours ago, RayCee said:

If it's ever going to change, there has got to be a plan on how to get there. With no plan there is no hope of change.

I agree.

Perhaps worth remembering now that had Toronto Wolfpack been given another year or two in the Super League then Sonny Bill Williams would have been playing in the Super League ?

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