Are you worried about attendances?

[The Future is League]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Fans have certain behaviours. They buy season tickets between September and January every year - for this season that was right in the middle of Covid lockdowns and dire times. Clubs limited sales, and basically many fans couldn't get the eaeason tickets. 

Fans didn't know when they would be able to attend and whether their tickets would be once again a donation to their club. 

They also didn't have access to the usual direct debit schemes that they normally tap into. 

Once grounds opened fully in July, the season was halfway through. Those families don't necessarily just have that money sitting there to then buy tickets, and for many who did buy tickets they see games cancelled and money held by clubs. 

We are staging games at irregular times, with no continuity or guarantees games will be staged. 

It should be no surprise that crowds are down. It is quite dumb to think you can decimate your whole sales window and expect no impact. Not other sport has had ghat, they have been able to sell at a time where there has been a high level of confidence that you would get something for your money. 

I mean we could just ignore all the above, call people fake fans and act like arrogant douchebags but that ain't gonna help anyone. 

Next season will tell us the whole story and fans won't have any excuses for not going to games, but some will excuses

[M j M]

When exactly did people start referring to Leigh vs Salford as a derby game? Was it just this week?

[Dave T]

56 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

Next season will tell us the whole story and fans won't have any excuses for not going to games, but some will excuses

Either way, you'll still be here moaning and slating the game to anyone that will listen. 

All whilst claiming to be a proper fan. 

[Dave T]

45 minutes ago, M j M said:

When exactly did people start referring to Leigh vs Salford as a derby game? Was it just this week?

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

I do however listen to those who aren’t going

But why?

THEY ARE NOT REAL FANS AND DO NOT DESERVE THE PURE SPORT OF RUGBY LEAGUE.

[ckn]

@GUBRATS@The Future is League

A public warning. Enough. You're long experienced posters so you know that that sort of language and public abuse is not acceptable. A repeat will see the person starting it get an involuntary break from the site.

[lucky 7]

If fans are not worried about falling crowds they should be.

This week round of games will be interesting crowd wise.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I still don’t understand this ‘the season has been disrupted’ angle. So has every other sports (despite the claims none have been as badly affected as RL) and yet their fans have returned.

Still, it will be definitely be different next time. And let’s be honest, if you don’t think so, you clearly hate RL.

 

I don't follow football too closely, but what games have been getting postponed there? 

Was any of The  Hundred disrupted? 

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

And these people live in a different country do they?

*why* are there RL games being postponed? Just unlucky?

But….we’ll see next year.

You claimed those sports have also been disrupted in a discussion about why fans are not returning in the same numbers. 

Super League has had loads of games postponed, the Premier League and the Hundred have had none as far as I know. 

So what was your point? 

[Chrispmartha]

3 hours ago, Johnoco said:

I still don’t understand this ‘the season has been disrupted’ angle. So has every other sports (despite the claims none have been as badly affected as RL) and yet their fans have returned.

Still, it will be definitely be different next time. And let’s be honest, if you don’t think so, you clearly hate RL.

 

The season started in lockdown, now do you think that may have had an effect on season ticket sales?

Weve had games cancelled with short notice, do you think that might have an effect on ticket sales?

what other sport has encountered those two things?

[Chrispmartha]

46 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

And all these supporters are season ticket holders? 
And again, why is it only RL having so many cancellations? Just bad luck? 

No they aren’t all ST holders but my point stands, Im not sure what point you’re trying to make with your second question, it’s irrelevant to my point, the fact is we’ve  had cancellations are you seriously arguing that it hasn’t affected ticket sales?

[Dave T]

31 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

A) why are the postponements still occurring in RL?

B) postponements should increase the number of fans at the next game that isn’t cancelled.

Either way, I aren’t going round and round in circles arguing about it. You’re confident next season (and the future) will be ok. I aren’t. As ever, we’ll see.

You won't get much disagreement on the frustration of postponements in RL - clubs are now getting punished, showing we aren't doing well. 

On point B, that isn't how that works. I had tickets for the Hull game a few weeks back and had sorted babysitters, transport and other plans with a group of friends. When it was called off at short notice, I didn't rush to rearrange as the risk of it happening again was high. The Catalans game was then called off on the day. That reduces crowds not increases them. I'll try again on Monday versus Saints, but it'll be my last attempt this year. 

On your final point, you are saying things I haven't said. I don't know whether next year will be ok, I think it will take a lot of work and focus to make next year a success (a point I have made repeatedly). My disagreement is that this year can be used as a measure - it is a heavily affected season (for many reasons I have stated). 

But to go back to one of my original points in this discussion- we know season ticket games get highest crowds, cash games get the lowest. We have seen that for years. Wire v Wigan gets 10 to 15k on season tickets, 7 to 9k  in the cup or playoff. That doesn't mean that we lose interest every September or playoff game, it is consumer behaviour. As soon as its a season ticket game the following year the crowd goes back up. It happens all the time. 

These games sit somewhere between season ticket games and cash games, and that is exactly what we're seeing. 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

No they aren’t all ST holders but my point stands, Im not sure what point you’re trying to make with your second question, it’s irrelevant to my point, the fact is we’ve  had cancellations are you seriously arguing that it hasn’t affected ticket sales?

Indeed, as per my last post - season ticket games get high crowds, cash games get low crowds (relatively speaking). 

These games are between the two due to decimated season ticket sales window. 

It is impossible to ignore that, even though people will. 

[Tommygilf]

9 hours ago, Dave T said:

You claimed those sports have also been disrupted in a discussion about why fans are not returning in the same numbers. 

Super League has had loads of games postponed, the Premier League and the Hundred have had none as far as I know. 

So what was your point? 

The Premier League are still insisting on club bubbles. 

As for the Hundred, well its cricket, in summer, in England (and Wales)... So perhaps postponements are more of a factored in possibility for fans? 

Our testing regime seems outdated considering the government rules. Likewise playing multiple games per week is crippling clubs.

[Tommygilf]

It is quite rightly being stated that football is at the start of their season etc.

What is missed entirely from this is however that football had an entire season wiped out - added to the uncertainty around this season. Has that impacted them?

[Bod]

Until Covid is gone it is what it is. Just because restrictions have lifted doesn't mean it's safe to attend and like myself many will not take the risk to themselves or family. I will renew my Saints season ticket to help the club even if I don't attend.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

It is quite rightly being stated that football is at the start of their season etc.

What is missed entirely from this is however that football had an entire season wiped out - added to the uncertainty around this season. Has that impacted them?

Non league football had two entire seasons not just curtailed but actually voided by the FA - technically they did not take place and players who scored hat-tricks in dramatic 3-2 wins will no longer see those goals on their official record.

I do think there is something in the argument that clubs couldn't sell season tickets but, TBH, so much of what's going on with rugby league seems to be really badly delivered right now. For example, Hastings United were top of the table in a league with only one automatic promotion place in both voided seasons. I know that they were livid when the FA declined to promote them during an off-season restructure. But the attitude, publicly, was very much, "Right, we go again." And I saw that mirrored in a lot of other teams who had similar issues. In rugby league, there would be a badly worded multi paragraph rant on the official club page that would be shared widely by players and media. And so the impact on fans would be a drip, drip, drip of, "Really, what's the point?"

[Tommygilf]

19 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Non league football had two entire seasons not just curtailed but actually voided by the FA - technically they did not take place and players who scored hat-tricks in dramatic 3-2 wins will no longer see those goals on their official record.

I do think there is something in the argument that clubs couldn't sell season tickets but, TBH, so much of what's going on with rugby league seems to be really badly delivered right now. For example, Hastings United were top of the table in a league with only one automatic promotion place in both voided seasons. I know that they were livid when the FA declined to promote them during an off-season restructure. But the attitude, publicly, was very much, "Right, we go again." And I saw that mirrored in a lot of other teams who had similar issues. In rugby league, there would be a badly worded multi paragraph rant on the official club page that would be shared widely by players and media. And so the impact on fans would be a drip, drip, drip of, "Really, what's the point?"

Yeah and it is a shame that the attitude you describe is true even of some of our big clubs.

Perhaps one of the trends of recent times has been exposing how some "big clubs" are actually ran with the mentality of smaller clubs; which would explain a lot about the state of the professional game today.

[Chrispmartha]

49 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I'm arguing that the majority of crowds in a regular season are not all season tickets, there has always been a very large percentage of non ST attendees. Are you saying people aren't going to games as they aren't season ticket holders? That would be a strange reason for not attending. In all the years I went to RL I think I was a ST holder 2 or 3 seasons.

As to the second point..... football isn't having postponed games, nor does cricket seem to be. So is it just bad luck? Or complete mismanagement.

I’m saying that the fact ST sales will be down because of no guarantee of when or how many games they would be able to go see is affecting crowd numbers, it’s not really a controversial POV it’s common sense, I’m unclear as to why you think that wouldn’t be the case, that ontop of uncertainty of wether the fixtures will go ahead is leading to poorer than usual crowds, again hardly controversial, are you trying to say it isn’t having an effect?

 

I cannot answer your second point as I haven’t got a clue what protocols and situations regarding  bubbles in those sports are.

Rugby is a sport with far more physical contact maybe that’s a factor?

[Chrispmartha]

49 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

 

Even if people don't have ST's, they'd still want to go given the circumstances we find ourselves in? Surely? 

Some will some won’t ergo fewer people attending.

 I know that none of the previous ST holders are back around where I sit at Headingley.

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

It is quite rightly being stated that football is at the start of their season etc.

What is missed entirely from this is however that football had an entire season wiped out - added to the uncertainty around this season. Has that impacted them?

What uncertainty this season? Doesn't their season start in Aug when all restrictions are lifted? 

Edit to add, I don't see anyone using a voided season as a reason for lower RL crowds, and our Championship was canned. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

A lower crowd for a cup game is usual. Lower crowds in the regular rounds, should be larger. Even factoring covid in. 

Even if people don't have ST's, they'd still want to go given the circumstances we find ourselves in? Surely? 

They are. Compare the crowds, we are bigger than cup games, lower than league games. Generally. 

[lucky 7]

14 hours ago, Johnoco said:

And these people live in a different country do they?

*why* are there RL games being postponed? Just unlucky?

But….we’ll see next year.

Some people are using Covid as excuse for the low crowds this season while other sports don't appear to be showing the decline in crowds our sport has. Unless the RFL and Super League can come up with a plan which will pique interest in the game from the disaffected fans they will not return. They really need to come up with something that not only piques the interest of the disaffected fans, but new fans to the game as well and something that is not over complicated so everybody understands it

[Dave T]

46 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Ok I'll keep it simple, pretend season tickets don't exist, for whatever reason they stopped them during covid. So nobody could get one even if they wanted to. 

Would people still want to attend the games that do take place? Or not? We are living through uncertain times, surely fans would factor this in ? ie maybe I can't get a ST and there may be cancellations but whatever games do take place, I'll definitely go. But this isn't happening. Rather than just sweep it under the carpet and pretend all is well, it would make sense for RL to have a plan of attack. 

We have seen when season tickets don't exist I. E. Playoffs, people don't go. 

Over time you can change behaviours or get new audiences, but people who budget through season tickets can't just change their behaviour overnight. 

Remember season tickets mean you can spread the cost and get the games at a reduced price. Kids can get in for a couple of quid for example. Suddenly finding £75 for a famiky of four for a Wednesday night game isn't just gonna happen. 

[Chrispmartha]

1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

Ok I'll keep it simple, pretend season tickets don't exist, for whatever reason they stopped them during covid. So nobody could get one even if they wanted to. 

Would people still want to attend the games that do take place? Or not? We are living through uncertain times, surely fans would factor this in ? ie maybe I can't get a ST and there may be cancellations but whatever games do take place, I'll definitely go. But this isn't happening. Rather than just sweep it under the carpet and pretend all is well, it would make sense for RL to have a plan of attack. 

If you've got to make up a scenario to try prove your point Id suggest its not a very good point to start with (I'm not even sure what your point actually is TBH)

 

And please stop with the strawmanning as I haven't said 'all is well' in fact Ive clearly stated the game has issues to address but for some reason you seem to be intent on pretending covid hasn't had an impact on current attendances.

Of course some of the usual ST holders will be wanting to go to the games, but the point is some won't especially if there's a chance that the game won't actually happen.

 

And yes RL should have a plan of attack but it has to look at ALL the reason crowds are down and one of those reasons is clearly the Pandemic.

 

As it happens do you know what the attendance was for the game in 2019 at the DW for the Wigan Leeds game was?

it was 11,230 so even with the covid factor this year it was the same as 2 years ago last night. Is that a good enough crowd, no it isn't but the game isn't suddenly dying with rubbish attendances.

The game is coming to a really critical part of the season and the race for the positions in the playoff spots with early any percentage points between 4-7, the game should be talking this up instead of people within the game (looking at you Mr Pearson) constantly death riding the sport.