Are you worried about attendances?

[whatmichaelsays]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

 

I don't understand why Bower portrays the sport's aging audience demographics as something "a problem outside rugby league's control". 

I'd suggest that targeting and appealing to new audiences and demographics, broadening it's appeal to a more diverse cross-section of society and increasing its relevance with the wider public is very much within the sport's control. In fact, one could argue that it's a fundamental function of running any business. 

I also note that Carter is in there talking about how "we need to get crowds back in" but reading between the lines, it seems that his plan is to simply hope that they come back. There's certainly no suggestion of what he and his club are doing to make a Wakefield ticket the hottest one in town. 

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I don't understand why Bower portrays the sport's aging audience demographics as something "a problem outside rugby league's control". 

I'd suggest that targeting and appealing to new audiences and demographics, broadening it's appeal to a more diverse cross-section of society and increasing its relevance with the wider public is very much within the sport's control. In fact, one could argue that it's a fundamental function of running any business. 

I also note that Carter is in there talking about how "we need to get crowds back in" but reading between the lines, it seems that his plan is to simply hope that they come back. There's certainly no suggestion of what he and his club are doing to make a Wakefield ticket the hottest one in town. 

Yeah I think this is my biggest worry with the sport atm. I'm willing to concede all the reasons posited for this season's crowds being rubbish, but I'm not confident at all in the crowds rebounding because I think this is the attitude.

I am also concerned by this message that people are bothered about Covid and aren't going to stadiums because of it. I have been to 3 capacity crowds this past week alone - with thousands of people of all ages present at each. Unless the chairmen making these statements genuinely believe RL is uniquely affected? To me it sounds like a crutch.

[Tommygilf]

On 26/08/2021 at 12:10, Dave T said:

What uncertainty this season? Doesn't their season start in Aug when all restrictions are lifted? 

Edit to add, I don't see anyone using a voided season as a reason for lower RL crowds, and our Championship was canned. 

They sold full STs which were then wiped out. That undoubtedly will have impacted consumer confidence going into this season, especially considering the delays in unlocking.

Tbh I wasn't even referring to non-League football, and didn't make a point about them and our championship being voided either. By wiped out I was referring to the professional game's season tickets.

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah I think this is my biggest worry with the sport atm. I'm willing to concede all the reasons posited for this season's crowds being rubbish, but I'm not confident at all in the crowds rebounding because I think this is the attitude.

I am also concerned by this message that people are bothered about Covid and aren't going to stadiums because of it. I have been to 3 capacity crowds this past week alone - with thousands of people of all ages present at each. Unless the chairmen making these statements genuinely believe RL is uniquely affected? To me it sounds like a crutch.

Indeed. I also agree that the circumstances around season tickets and postponements mean that it isn't really a fair test - I think Christmas will be the period where club executives begin to either be relieved or VERY concerned. 

But there does seem to be something of a "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" vibe about some of the comments in that piece. I do worry about how much research has actually been done into this issue. 

[Dave T]

Do we have any stats on the demographic of RL fans? Particularly age distribution? 

Because we often hear about an aging supporter base, but how true is that, and what are the reasons? As a sport we have worked hard attracting youth - we do a lot of work in schools and have very cheap kids tickets, it's also not unusual for free kids too. I see far more kids at games than you do at Prem League games, where they are swamped out by middle aged men. 

It would be interesting to know which age groups we see the drop off in - for example in my head I would expect it to be in the younger professionals segment - as people get more money I'm not convinced RL is aspirational enough for them, and those with a bit of free money look to spend it on more prestigious events. 

This view is however just a hypothesis, based somewhat on my own personal life, it'd be good to know that the game knows its customer base and behaviours, but I fear not. 

[Dave T]

Just now, whatmichaelsays said:

Indeed. I also agree that the circumstances around season tickets and postponements mean that it isn't really a fair test - I think Christmas will be the period where club executives begin to either be relieved or VERY concerned. 

But there does seem to be something of a "we've tried nothing and we're all our of ideas" vibe about some of the comments in that piece. I do worry about how much research has actually been done into this issue. 

There was a quick survey from SL yesterday asking about Grand Final tickets. Have you bought them, if not why not? 

Unfortunately the options were really limited, but maybe suggests sales for that are well down. 

For me, trying to deliver a great playoff series and packed out Grand Final would be a great way to finish the season. Tbh I'd even consider a huge Thank You to the fans and make the playoffs completely free in order to pack them out and try and change the mood. I think it could create a bit of feel good factor. 

[Man of Kent]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

There was a quick survey from SL yesterday asking about Grand Final tickets. Have you bought them, if not why not? 

Unfortunately the options were really limited, but maybe suggests sales for that are well down. 

You can say that again. I clicked ‘Yes - I’ve already bought a ticket’ and that was that, end of survey. 

As an aside, I’d like to see more surveys. From afar, clubs seem somewhat detached from their supporters. Do they survey their members?

Does Super League survey fans and know what they want or are unhappy with? 

 

[whatmichaelsays]

30 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Do we have any stats on the demographic of RL fans? Particularly age distribution? 

Because we often hear about an aging supporter base, but how true is that, and what are the reasons? As a sport we have worked hard attracting youth - we do a lot of work in schools and have very cheap kids tickets, it's also not unusual for free kids too. I see far more kids at games than you do at Prem League games, where they are swamped out by middle aged men. 

It would be interesting to know which age groups we see the drop off in - for example in my head I would expect it to be in the younger professionals segment - as people get more money I'm not convinced RL is aspirational enough for them, and those with a bit of free money look to spend it on more prestigious events. 

This view is however just a hypothesis, based somewhat on my own personal life, it'd be good to know that the game knows its customer base and behaviours, but I fear not. 

I think that perspective is probably in the right ball park, and I'd say my own experiences will back up that. 

I don't think engaging "kids" is the issue - it's keeping them that is the problem.The "dangerous" age for losing fans probably starts around late teens and goes into those 20-something years. If you look at a typical RL crowd today, how many "millennials" or Gen-Z demographics do you see? Not enough, I'd suggest. 

Those are the ages where people do move around for work and education, these people tend to move to cities (because that's where other young people are) and aside from Leeds, RL doesn't have a good presence in major cities.

People don't live and die in the same towns any more and I'd suggest that RL reflects the towns it serves - towns where young people move away for study and work, before maybe coming back many years later when they're ready to move out of the city and take advantage of the cheaper housing.

[whatmichaelsays]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Do we have any stats on the demographic of RL fans? Particularly age distribution? 

Because we often hear about an aging supporter base, but how true is that, and what are the reasons? As a sport we have worked hard attracting youth - we do a lot of work in schools and have very cheap kids tickets, it's also not unusual for free kids too. I see far more kids at games than you do at Prem League games, where they are swamped out by middle aged men. 

It would be interesting to know which age groups we see the drop off in - for example in my head I would expect it to be in the younger professionals segment - as people get more money I'm not convinced RL is aspirational enough for them, and those with a bit of free money look to spend it on more prestigious events. 

This view is however just a hypothesis, based somewhat on my own personal life, it'd be good to know that the game knows its customer base and behaviours, but I fear not. 

Edit- double post

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Do we have any stats on the demographic of RL fans? Particularly age distribution? 

Because we often hear about an aging supporter base, but how true is that, and what are the reasons? As a sport we have worked hard attracting youth - we do a lot of work in schools and have very cheap kids tickets, it's also not unusual for free kids too. I see far more kids at games than you do at Prem League games, where they are swamped out by middle aged men. 

It would be interesting to know which age groups we see the drop off in - for example in my head I would expect it to be in the younger professionals segment - as people get more money I'm not convinced RL is aspirational enough for them, and those with a bit of free money look to spend it on more prestigious events. 

This view is however just a hypothesis, based somewhat on my own personal life, it'd be good to know that the game knows its customer base and behaviours, but I fear not. 

There doesn't seem to be too much actual research sadly.

Anecdotally, and based mostly on my experience at Headingley, live RL attendees get lots of families with younger children (14 and younger) and a broad mix of middle aged and older men and women. I see a noticeably smaller amount of people around my age 16-30. I wouldn't even specify those as all Young Professionals either, though they are part of that group.

In terms of other demographics, the crowds are overwhelmingly white British in my experience. Some might say that isn't a problem, but regardless I think its symptomatic of a wider sense of a game that struggles to speak to people outside its own bubble - race being just a more visually obvious aspect of that than say occupation or  I once heard RL compared to the Masons and thought it was a funny comparison, in you need to be introduced by an existing member. If the numbers of people doing that are decreasing then that becomes a problematic and narrowing cycle.

[nadera78]

Just read on a football forum that 1 month into the Championship season only 4 clubs are tracking attendances above pre-pandemic levels, with two of those being newly promoted clubs and a third being Coventry who have returned to their home city after a few seasons away. That's after 18 months without crowds. Early days, obviously, but it will be interesting to see how that progresses given all the above discussion about RL.

[Dave T]

50 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

That is the sort of thing that might cost money initially, in terms of lost gate receipts but could (and probably would) pay dividends in terms of feel good factor, image of the game etc etc. 

But it would have to be done right and not just announced at the last moment. 

Yep, it would be an investment, but I think if you are ever going to be bold, this is it - and rather than looking like a giveaway because sales are tough, it looks more like a positive generous move after a ###### 2 years. 

[shrek]

On 28/08/2021 at 08:18, Dave T said:

Do we have any stats on the demographic of RL fans? Particularly age distribution? 

Because we often hear about an aging supporter base, but how true is that, and what are the reasons? As a sport we have worked hard attracting youth - we do a lot of work in schools and have very cheap kids tickets, it's also not unusual for free kids too. I see far more kids at games than you do at Prem League games, where they are swamped out by middle aged men. 

It would be interesting to know which age groups we see the drop off in - for example in my head I would expect it to be in the younger professionals segment - as people get more money I'm not convinced RL is aspirational enough for them, and those with a bit of free money look to spend it on more prestigious events. 

This view is however just a hypothesis, based somewhat on my own personal life, it'd be good to know that the game knows its customer base and behaviours, but I fear not. 

Very anecdotal and we'll all have different experiences, but rugby league has all but been squeezed out at my youngest kids primary school in Wigan.

No reflection on the rugby club, as I'm sure they do there best with limited resources and do a great job running sports day, but aside from that its all football, pretty much week in week out the Wigan Athletic community team is in school offering something either during PE or after school.  Not sure who, or how the football community programme is funded but, its well funded, well run and very effective.

Net result seems to be next to no interest in Rugby League, plenty in football, my kids just not interested, first generation in my family not to be interested in Rugby, yet there season ticket holders at the football and nagging to go to meaningless mid week cup games.

The only code of rugby my kids were offered at primary school, was from the local, amateur RU team, my little lad had a go but didn't want to carry on with it out of school or give league a try.  Sad really.
 

[nadera78]

14 hours ago, shrek said:

Very anecdotal and we'll all have different experiences, but rugby league has all but been squeezed out at my youngest kids primary school in Wigan.

No reflection on the rugby club, as I'm sure they do there best with limited resources and do a great job running sports day, but aside from that its all football, pretty much week in week out the Wigan Athletic community team is in school offering something either during PE or after school.  Not sure who, or how the football community programme is funded but, its well funded, well run and very effective.

Net result seems to be next to no interest in Rugby League, plenty in football, my kids just not interested, first generation in my family not to be interested in Rugby, yet there season ticket holders at the football and nagging to go to meaningless mid week cup games.

The only code of rugby my kids were offered at primary school, was from the local, amateur RU team, my little lad had a go but didn't want to carry on with it out of school or give league a try.  Sad really.
 

I think I'm right in saying that every PL, EFL and National League club is eligible to receive funding from the PL for the Premier League Kicks programme - which is probably where Wigan Athletic get the resources to do their schools development work. That sort of funding gives them the opportunity to go into schools and offer more than simply the odd football session, I've heard that in some schools football clubs have taken over not quite the entire PE offering but certainly a substantial part of it. For schools it's a no brainer because it's all paid for by someone else and their budgets have been cut massively over the past decade.

[gingerjon]

3 hours ago, nadera78 said:

I think I'm right in saying that every PL, EFL and National League club is eligible to receive funding from the PL for the Premier League Kicks programme - which is probably where Wigan Athletic get the resources to do their schools development work. That sort of funding gives them the opportunity to go into schools and offer more than simply the odd football session, I've heard that in some schools football clubs have taken over not quite the entire PE offering but certainly a substantial part of it. For schools it's a no brainer because it's all paid for by someone else and their budgets have been cut massively over the past decade.

Was about to say the same. It's a model adopted by some RU clubs as well but not sure if that's centrally funded.

Tiny Ginger's first (state) Primary school had an entire term's worth of PE delivered by Arsenal. They wouldn't have had PE beyond movement classes without it. With multi academy trusts now being the norm I believe it's common for football foundations to partner across multiple schools via a partnership with a single trust. A lot of the 4G pitches round here - used by local schools and colleges - have signs connecting them to Chelsea so I presume there's a partnership going on there.

[shrek]

7 hours ago, nadera78 said:

I think I'm right in saying that every PL, EFL and National League club is eligible to receive funding from the PL for the Premier League Kicks programme - which is probably where Wigan Athletic get the resources to do their schools development work. That sort of funding gives them the opportunity to go into schools and offer more than simply the odd football session, I've heard that in some schools football clubs have taken over not quite the entire PE offering but certainly a substantial part of it. For schools it's a no brainer because it's all paid for by someone else and their budgets have been cut massively over the past decade.

I don't know, we don't see any other branding other than Wigan Athletic, unless I've missed it, but they've been doing it for years, its a well run operation and must be separate to the football club as it carried on through last years administration unaffected and you're right it goes well beyond football, they offer all sorts of multi-sport after school activities. 

Doesn't mean for a second there all going to be Wigan Athletic fans mind, Barcelona was the most supported club in my daughters class, but then the point made earlier in the thread about Premier League grounds being filled by the middle aged, is probably true, so kids have just as much chance watching Barcelona on the TV as they have any of the other local Premier League sides.  Be interesting to see if there interests holds in later life and if they'll start paying to turn up to matches.

Agreed its a no brainer for schools, but goes to show what as a sport Rugby is up against.

 

[shrek]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Was about to say the same. It's a model adopted by some RU clubs as well but not sure if that's centrally funded.

Tiny Ginger's first (state) Primary school had an entire term's worth of PE delivered by Arsenal. They wouldn't have had PE beyond movement classes without it. With multi academy trusts now being the norm I believe it's common for football foundations to partner across multiple schools via a partnership with a single trust. A lot of the 4G pitches round here - used by local schools and colleges - have signs connecting them to Chelsea so I presume there's a partnership going on there.

Probably best I don't get my MAT soup box out! 

But ours started before the trust took over, but I can only imagine they've embraced it as a Trust and cut back further on their own spend, its seems to be their way!

[Josef K]

3 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Anyone know what the crowd was at York yesterday. 

I don’t know any of the attendances from last weekend or yesterday, have the RFL & SL clubs agreed to keep crowd figures top secret. 

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

Sounds from twitter good crowds at wigan and Leeds tonight. 

Couple of less rounds and I think extra gates from Fri and weekend games only would have been better than lower gates partially caused by midweek matches 

[Josef K]

How many was on last night at Cas, it looked as if Wire took a decent following. 

[Eddie]

Just now, Josef K said:

How many was on last night at Cas, it looked as if Wire took a decent following. 

Looked like about 6,500 to me, at a guess. 

[Josef K]

Just now, Eddie said:

Looked like about 6,500 to me, at a guess. 

Not bad for a Thursday night. 

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

£25 adult walk up for Wigan next Thur. 

Head meets wall time. Is there a stupid rule as revenue may have an element of sharing that normal gate money must be charged? 

If so, how silly. 

Play off games should be a bonus, so wigan need to cover costs only. 

Imagine £5 a pop- 20k in stadium for £100k. 

Instead 9k at £15 ish (after discounts) so £135k but much worse atmosphere, worse product and £35k difference 

Which is approx 35k/ £250 ish- about 140 season tickets which you might persuade more people to buy after a 20k play off match 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

£25 adult walk up for Wigan next Thur. 

Head meets wall time. Is there a stupid rule as revenue may have an element of sharing that normal gate money must be charged? 

If so, how silly. 

Play off games should be a bonus, so wigan need to cover costs only. 

Imagine £5 a pop- 20k in stadium for £100k. 

Instead 9k at £15 ish (after discounts) so £135k but much worse atmosphere, worse product and £35k difference 

Which is approx 35k/ £250 ish- about 140 season tickets which you might persuade more people to buy after a 20k play off match 

Play off games should be a premium, not a discount! There supposed to be important so should be priced accordingly, not given away.

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Play off games should be a premium, not a discount! There supposed to be important so should be priced accordingly, not given away.

For years our best matches have the poorest attendances. Why continue? 

There will be 9k ish there next week- much better to have 20k 

If you convince 200 or so of the 11k (1 in 55) who will watch on tv but might go if cheaper to buy a season pass then you are quids in and its a much better spectacle.