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2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Indeed, its a worrying scenario and I hope it isn't written off by clubs as "its just covid it'll be fine next season".

I think there does need to be a discussion and some research done.

My own personal reason are this:

I’m still interested in watching and attending big events now that I have less time/more money at this stage of life so Grand Finals/Challenge Cup finals or games with specific things riding on it.

I no longer think Saints-Wigan or Saints-Wire league derbies are must watch either in the flesh or on TV.  There’s too many meetings during the season that has ruined the scarcity value.  I used to view these derbies as focal points for attending and bringing others.

The league campaign drags on for me with each game less of a special occasion now.  I know there’s little chance of this, but I’d like to see fewer home games but made into bigger events.  I don’t have the time for a season ticket, but I could be tempted to spend big on occasions in hospitality if I felt interested in the story of the season or ‘the narrative’.  

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1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

My own personal reason are this:

I’m still interested in watching and attending big events now that I have less time/more money at this stage of life so Grand Finals/Challenge Cup finals or games with specific things riding on it.

I no longer think Saints-Wigan or Saints-Wire league derbies are must watch either in the flesh or on TV.  There’s too many meetings during the season that has ruined the scarcity value.  I used to view these derbies as focal points for attending and bringing others.

The league campaign drags on for me with each game less of a special occasion now.  I know there’s little chance of this, but I’d like to see fewer home games but made into bigger events.  I don’t have the time for a season ticket, but I could be tempted to spend big on occasions in hospitality if I felt interested in the story of the season or ‘the narrative’.  

I think you have hit the nail firmly on the head.

Less matches and more quality + Internationals is the only way forward.

Paul

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2 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

My own personal reason are this:

I’m still interested in watching and attending big events now that I have less time/more money at this stage of life so Grand Finals/Challenge Cup finals or games with specific things riding on it.

I no longer think Saints-Wigan or Saints-Wire league derbies are must watch either in the flesh or on TV.  There’s too many meetings during the season that has ruined the scarcity value.  I used to view these derbies as focal points for attending and bringing others.

The league campaign drags on for me with each game less of a special occasion now.  I know there’s little chance of this, but I’d like to see fewer home games but made into bigger events.  I don’t have the time for a season ticket, but I could be tempted to spend big on occasions in hospitality if I felt interested in the story of the season or ‘the narrative’.  

There does seem to be a sense that flogging a dead horse is the only idea the sport has to bring in money. They've got a good thing, but have made it bloated and lacking focus.

Hopefully its something they recognise.

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Saints have sold 4,500 season tickets for this season. This, combined with a traditionally lower crowd for Catalans games, a TV match, an unusual kick off time and heavy rain, may mean that there will be a very poor crowd for this afternoon's match. If we are lucky, some of that may be offset by the fact it is a top two clash. If there is more than 6,500 there, I would be surprised.

Twitter: @TrylineUK
Latest Blog: Bringing the Game to a New Audience

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5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

They were still getting 27,000+ in League 1 whilst charging premier league prices. If you have read the "what is the point thread", multiply that sentiment by about 5, plus consider what Bradford Bulls fans must think on top as a near equivalent, and you'll see what impact the last 16 years have had on the LUFC fanbase.

A lesson for League perhaps is that being part of a good story is a great way to get people motivated, whilst the opposite is true in reverse.

That was a great season, 2009/10, Leeds and Norwich getting massive crowds and taking more fans to away games than some of the home teams, you had that quality forward Beckford, reckon you beat Utd away in the cup too? 

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Just now, Chris22 said:

Saints have sold 4,500 season tickets for this season. This, combined with a traditionally lower crowd for Catalans games, a TV match, an unusual kick off time and heavy rain, may mean that there will be a very poor crowd for this afternoon's match. If we are lucky, some of that may be offset by the fact it is a top two clash. If there is more than 6,500 there, I would be surprised.

It is the biggest game of the season on paper. 

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13 minutes ago, Eddie said:

That was a great season, 2009/10, Leeds and Norwich getting massive crowds and taking more fans to away games than some of the home teams, you had that quality forward Beckford, reckon you beat Utd away in the cup too? 

Absolutely, literally the best result in 13 years between 2005 and 2018. We also had Becchio, Howson and Johnson who all got signed up at Carrow Road in subsequent seasons.

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9500 for pies vs Salford.  Need to smash that Saints game.  

Its also why I think we still need internationals for Eng this year to try and get the bug back for people. 

Edited by ShropshireBull
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I have a solution for those who complain about lack of scarcity. Just don't go to the loop fixtures. Don't stress about them putting on a game you don't like (cos, obviously being an RL fan you don't really like games of RL). Leave it to those who do want to go. If the numbers drop so low they are not worth it, they will be cancelled. But criticising clubs for needing to stage games to pay bills is weird. We are no different to any sport. Apart from the huge dose of self-loathing. 

For those saying it's not a covid thing - I reluctantly committed to go to tomorrows game, first Wire game this year as a group of us going. Bought tickets. Postponed. Probably won't bother trying again this year until its all sorted. There is still huge covid disruption causing lots of issues with selling tickets. 

Edited by Dave T
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3 hours ago, Chris22 said:

Saints have sold 4,500 season tickets for this season. This, combined with a traditionally lower crowd for Catalans games, a TV match, an unusual kick off time and heavy rain, may mean that there will be a very poor crowd for this afternoon's match. If we are lucky, some of that may be offset by the fact it is a top two clash. If there is more than 6,500 there, I would be surprised.

7,758. I feared worse.

Twitter: @TrylineUK
Latest Blog: Bringing the Game to a New Audience

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32 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

7,758. I feared worse.

For a smaller club like Saints, even one going through a period of complete dominance of the domestic game, getting over 7000 to a top of the table clash is a fantastic effort. To get within 2000 of Wigan - Salford is some achievement. 

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I have a solution for those who complain about lack of scarcity. Just don't go to the loop fixtures. Don't stress about them putting on a game you don't like (cos, obviously being an RL fan you don't really like games of RL). Leave it to those who do want to go. If the numbers drop so low they are not worth it, they will be cancelled. But criticising clubs for needing to stage games to pay bills is weird. We are no different to any sport. Apart from the huge dose of self-loathing. 

It's not about self loathing at all, it's just people are getting bored of the same old fixtures time after time. I appreciate your view in that you think there can never be too much RL - but there can be, as demonstrated by people picking and choosing what games they attend. Because.....it's boring.

If Wigan play Saints 5 times a season, it's not a must see event, it's like a bus, there'll be another one along in a minute. RL just doesn't have enough big clubs and can't generate enough money, it needs better quality games and more excitement. A club playing 10 games a season but getting 10000 to each game will make more money than one playing 20 and getting 5K a time.

Concentrate on quality and making things must see, not squeezing the pips out of the same shrinking handful of people.

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9 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Indeed, its a worrying scenario and I hope it isn't written off by clubs as "its just covid it'll be fine next season".

I think there does need to be a discussion and some research done.

I agree Tommy. 

It seems like many of the people who confidently predicted that crowds would flock back as soon as restrictions allowed are now confidently predicting that crowds will flock back in 2022.

The problem is that by the time we get to early 2022 it will be almost two years since those 'missing' people will have last attended a game. Studies have shown that the average time it takes to lose a habit is around 66 days. The actual results varied between 18 and 254 days, quite a wide variance - but we've gone FAR more than 254 days since things were 'normal' in terms of crowds attending matches.

I think a lot of people, more than we realise, have simply fallen out of the habit. Even on board, presumably comprised largely of people very invested in the sport, there's a whole thread of people talking about how they've basically fallen out of love with the game. And we are supposedly the 'keenies'! There's plenty more who follow teams casually, and I think many of those will quite simply have found other things to do on match day.

Continuing with the narrative that 'Oh crowds will all come back eventually' is, IMO, extremely dangerous. There needs to be a game-wide strategy to try to address this.

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

It's not about self loathing at all, it's just people are getting bored of the same old fixtures time after time. I appreciate your view in that you think there can never be too much RL - but there can be, as demonstrated by people picking and choosing what games they attend. Because.....it's boring.

If Wigan play Saints 5 times a season, it's not a must see event, it's like a bus, there'll be another one along in a minute. RL just doesn't have enough big clubs and can't generate enough money, it needs better quality games and more excitement. A club playing 10 games a season but getting 10000 to each game will make more money than one playing 20 and getting 5K a time.

Concentrate on quality and making things must see, not squeezing the pips out of the same shrinking handful of people.

Problem is that nobody is providing evidence that those numbers are available. If there was evidence of double crowds for fewer games we'd do it. But there isn't. 

And the people moan about another Saints v Wigan game, but they are usually the bigger crowds and better TV viewers than Saints v London or similar. 

I share the desire to get rid of loop fixtures, id prefer a straight round Robin with 14 teams and Magic, but scarcity appears to be a bit of a buzzword and it's not really based around any evidence. 

Tbh mate, if these go, people will just find a new thing to hang on to. It's draining. 

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1 hour ago, paulwalker71 said:

I agree Tommy. 

It seems like many of the people who confidently predicted that crowds would flock back as soon as restrictions allowed are now confidently predicting that crowds will flock back in 2022.

The problem is that by the time we get to early 2022 it will be almost two years since those 'missing' people will have last attended a game. Studies have shown that the average time it takes to lose a habit is around 66 days. The actual results varied between 18 and 254 days, quite a wide variance - but we've gone FAR more than 254 days since things were 'normal' in terms of crowds attending matches.

I think a lot of people, more than we realise, have simply fallen out of the habit. Even on board, presumably comprised largely of people very invested in the sport, there's a whole thread of people talking about how they've basically fallen out of love with the game. And we are supposedly the 'keenies'! There's plenty more who follow teams casually, and I think many of those will quite simply have found other things to do on match day.

Continuing with the narrative that 'Oh crowds will all come back eventually' is, IMO, extremely dangerous. There needs to be a game-wide strategy to try to address this.

I don't think anyone is just saying crowds will automatically come back. Certainly not me. 

I'm challenging the narrative that this isn't a covid impact, it's an RL problem. As I alluded to in an earlier post, the solutions may be the same, but imho it's really important to understand what the problem is before you agree your plan to fix it, and you point about falling out of habit is relevant, which is directly a covid impact. 

But even now, fans are trying to go to games and they are being postponed. I'm having to cancel plans at 24hrs notice, having sorted out transport and babysitter, I probably won't bother for the rest of this year. And I'm pragmatic about all of this, I understand the challenges, but Covid is still problematic for us and impacting fans, clubs and ultimately crowds. 

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1 hour ago, paulwalker71 said:

I agree Tommy. 

It seems like many of the people who confidently predicted that crowds would flock back as soon as restrictions allowed are now confidently predicting that crowds will flock back in 2022.

The problem is that by the time we get to early 2022 it will be almost two years since those 'missing' people will have last attended a game. Studies have shown that the average time it takes to lose a habit is around 66 days. The actual results varied between 18 and 254 days, quite a wide variance - but we've gone FAR more than 254 days since things were 'normal' in terms of crowds attending matches.

I think a lot of people, more than we realise, have simply fallen out of the habit. Even on board, presumably comprised largely of people very invested in the sport, there's a whole thread of people talking about how they've basically fallen out of love with the game. And we are supposedly the 'keenies'! There's plenty more who follow teams casually, and I think many of those will quite simply have found other things to do on match day.

Continuing with the narrative that 'Oh crowds will all come back eventually' is, IMO, extremely dangerous. There needs to be a game-wide strategy to try to address this.

Will be interesting to see if the (sometimes tedious) habit of going to football holds up or not. If it does then we’ll know the issue is what’s going on with RL - I hope it isn’t that though. 

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7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Will be interesting to see if the (sometimes tedious) habit of going to football holds up or not. If it does then we’ll know the issue is what’s going on with RL - I hope it isn’t that though. 

The Community Shield, which always has lower crowds than wembley capacity had a low crowd today. Tickets were still available at £20 a pop the other day. Top tickets £45. They haven't released the crowd number yet I don't think, but it must have been in the 50's.

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The Community Shield, which always has lower crowds than wembley capacity had a low crowd today. Tickets were still available at £20 a pop the other day. Top tickets £45. They haven't released the crowd number yet I don't think, but it must have been in the 50's.

Good. Not that I’d be ar53d going to a pre-season friendly either, but I think it’s usually sold out? 

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I don't think anyone is just saying crowds will automatically come back. Certainly not me. 

 

I thought crowds would go up tbf, but that was based on restrictions just ending and not the drawn out confusing situation that we have. Must admit even as a Norwich season ticket holder I haven’t bothered to look into whether I’ll be able to go to games or not yet, as it’s so changeable and I’m really not fussed either way any more anyway. 

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Bournemouth last night looked chocker, 12,000 which is capacity,  I didn't see any empty seats. Bramall Lane tonight looks healthy,  difficult to tell on tv, but looks pretty solid attendance,  North of 25,000 at least, 23,000 of them not smiling at present,  they're losing. 

Edited by HawkMan
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10 minutes ago, Eddie said:

 Must admit even as a Norwich season ticket holder I haven’t bothered to look into whether I’ll be able to go to games or not yet, as it’s so changeable and I’m really not fussed either way any more anyway. 

If I was a Norwich supporter I wouldn't be fussed either. 😆

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