Are you worried about attendances?

[The Future is League]

1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-championship-2021-2022/1/

So which clubs are Bradford outstripping easily for crowds? and you used the words EASILY OUTSTRIP

 

[The Future is League]

11 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Based on 2019-20 attendances, they'd rank ahead of:

• Barnsley
• Blackburn
• Millwall
• QPR
• Preston
• Brentford (probably not now)
• Hull
• Wigan
• Luton

In League One, they'd have higher averages than every club bar Sunderland, Ipswich and Portsmouth.

We are in 21/22 soccer season

[The Future is League]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why? What is the rationale that SL clubs need to be bigger than 4th tier football clubs? 

Elstone wanted Leigh in Super League to boost the crowds numbers that's going well isn't it LOL

[The Future is League]

Just now, ShropshireBull said:

 

No I didnt use caps because it makes people come across as a MASSIVE JEREMY HUNT. Looking at that its any club from preston downward.  

As I mentioned I am worried but cherry picking comparisions over the median average is not helpful. Close to a mute tbh. 

You used the words Easily outstrip Championship clubs not me.

I see no evidence that Bradford are easily outstripping Championship clubs with crowds

[The Future is League]

1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

Then change your prescription.  Not going to get involved with this thread hijack so its a mute.

I'm just quoting your words not mine.

Did you not say that Bradford soccer clubs easily outstriped the soccer Championship clubs crowds, yes or no.

[whatmichaelsays]

15 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

/We are in 21/22 soccer season

We're two games into it. I think it's fair to use 19/20, given that the 20/21 season was a write-off, to prove the (largely minor) point that Bradford's L2 attendances compare well in the Championship. 

[The Future is League]

3 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

We're two games into it. I think it's fair to use 19/20, given that the 20/21 season was a write-off, to prove the (largely minor) point that Bradford's L2 attendances compare well in the Championship. 

4 games in actually on League 2

[Mr Frisky]

28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why? What is the rationale that SL clubs need to be bigger than 4th tier football clubs? 

Correct - Do Premier league football fans worry that the Indian Premier league cricket and American College (american college football and the NFL its self) - average bigger crowds than the EPL average??

Maybe they don't bother as they are different sports.....

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

Can we get bk to League please.  Apparently York limited to 2000 vs Bulls which is awful. 

What’s the story behind this? I believe the limited capacity is decided by the stadium company but why?

[Dave T]

I know we have a Yorkshire-centric fan base in RL, but this thing about Bradford City FC crowds being the barometer for success is a new one on me. 

It's a shame really that all those RL, RU, Cricket, Netball and other sports clubs also accept mediocrity by not beating Bradford City's average. 

They should all try harder. 

Honourable mention to Leicester Tigers though who have hit this prolific benchmark. 

[Mr Frisky]

19 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Maybe they don't need to worry as they know their sport is several times more popular than both those sports combined.

As I said different sports so no need compair them.

[M j M]

9 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

As I said different sports so no need compair them.

But how can they create straw man arguments otherwise?

[whatmichaelsays]

48 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

4 games in actually on League 2

Oh well, that changes everything.....

[gingerjon]

10 hours ago, Dave T said:

Why? What is the rationale that SL clubs need to be bigger than 4th tier football clubs? 

Because we used to. Even when the top tier crowds were a lot lower than now we could legitimately call ourselves the second most watched professional sport in the country. Cricket crowds were mostly a joke, club RU played to a few hundred aside from event games, lower league football crowds were poor & non league under the radar entirely ... but there we were.

And now we're not. And we're falling further behind.

[The Future is League]

9 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Different countries though. 

For those who can't comprehend...

No UK football fan of the PL is going to worry about cricket attendances in India or gridiron in the USA. This is because their own game (at the top level) is doing fine, plenty of crowds, money etc. 

And low attendance at recent RL matches have been blamed on covid (which is an issue in part) but the same people in the same areas are attending football in numbers. So....

 

19 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Because we used to. Even when the top tier crowds were a lot lower than now we could legitimately call ourselves the second most watched professional sport in the country. Cricket crowds were mostly a joke, club RU played to a few hundred aside from event games, lower league football crowds were poor & non league under the radar entirely ... but there we were.

And now we're not. And we're falling further behind.

When some posters are happy with a crowd of less than 3,500 for a super league derby you know the game has problems, huge problems. That is even less than some non league soccer clubs get.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, The Future is League said:

 

When some posters are happy with a crowd of less than 3,500 for a super league derby you know the game has problems, huge problems. That is even less than some non league soccer clubs get.

Who is ' happy ' ?

[The Future is League]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Who is ' happy ' ?

You didn't condemn the low crowd did you?

So a straight yes or no, was you happy with the pathetic crowd Leigh got on Sunday?

Is it acceptable that a club in super league can't even draw a crowd of 3,500 in a local derby?

[GUBRATS]

9 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

You didn't condemn the low crowd did you?

So a straight yes or no, was you happy with the pathetic crowd Leigh got on Sunday?

Is it acceptable that a club in super league can't even draw a crowd of 3,500 in a local derby?

I am unhappy every time I see a single empty seat or space on the terrace at Leigh , it means the club should have done more , just as I'm unhappy every time I see a child or a woman in crisis around the world , what do you think I should do about either of those situations ?

[Dave T]

42 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Because we used to. Even when the top tier crowds were a lot lower than now we could legitimately call ourselves the second most watched professional sport in the country. Cricket crowds were mostly a joke, club RU played to a few hundred aside from event games, lower league football crowds were poor & non league under the radar entirely ... but there we were.

And now we're not. And we're falling further behind.

But we still are. That Bradford City and Plymouth are anomalies in that league, just the same way Toronto were in our division 3 is not a sign of anything. Using things like that as a measure is a weird distraction. 

As a City fan I remember watching us in the 3rd division with large crowds. It didn't mean anything. 

[Damien]

44 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Because we used to. Even when the top tier crowds were a lot lower than now we could legitimately call ourselves the second most watched professional sport in the country. Cricket crowds were mostly a joke, club RU played to a few hundred aside from event games, lower league football crowds were poor & non league under the radar entirely ... but there we were.

And now we're not. And we're falling further behind.

Excellent points. To be fair most businesses would compare themselves and their performance to that of their competitors. That is how they improve and stay ahead. If crowds are increasing in other sports and TV deals aren't drastically declining, as they have in Super League, then we should be looking at why and learning lessons.

[Dave T]

Once again context is key to make sure we understand what the problems are. 

In the season before SL we averaged 5.5k. We are now around the 8.5k mark (in a normal year). 

It is very important to remember that in 1995 we were already a pro spectator sport with established comps, tv coverage and league structures. When people talk about Cricket, Darts, RU etc they ignore the different starting points. 

RL can learn plenty from how other sports grow, but the majority of things are irrelevant. It is frankly stupid to cherry pick a good crowd from a lower division of another sport with the sole intention of criticising RL. There is literally no other reason for doing so, picking outliers is a dumb thing to do. 

Each sport has its own challenges and circumstances, RL is no different what RL needs to focus on is its own growth. 

For RL fans to regularly champion crowds at other sports that are lower than we see at some RL games is a perfect example of RL mentality. The insecurity is damaging. 

RL fans just don't seem to like the sport tbh. 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Once again context is key to make sure we understand what the problems are. 

In the season before SL we averaged 5.5k. We are now around the 8.5k mark (in a normal year). 

For context then, how long did it take to get to that 8.5k mark?

And then the really tough question, why hasn't that growth (from a small base) been sustained and instead replaced with decline?

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

In the season before SL we averaged 5.5k. We are now around the 8.5k mark (in a normal year). 

In 1990/91 we averaged 6.5k. In 1994/5 in the last proper season before Super League as you say we averaged 5.5k. However both of these were with a 16 team league, not a 12 team league. If we had a 16 team league now I'm not sure if the average would be a great deal better, considering 30 odd years of growth in other sports. We've also contracted to get there which isn't particularly great for the game as a whole. Now we are looking at contracting again to 10, which I'm sure will see another bump in the average but will mask a lot. 

[Dave T]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

For context then, how long did it take to get to that 8.5k mark?

And then the really tough question, why hasn't that growth (from a small base) been sustained and instead replaced with decline?

That isn't adding any context. My point was challenging the fact that RL crowds are terrible and everyone else is great when it used to be the other way.

Your point is a different one. An important one, but very different. Because this is my point, we should be monitoring our own curves, and addressing those, not looking at what a random 4th division football club is returning. If Bradford and Plymouth get promoted this year, we will have better crowds than div 4 by default and will everything be rosey? 

Onto your point though, if we break it down into decades:

1st decade of SL saw steady, consistent growth, peaking at 9.5k at the end. 

2nd decade started well with some further modest improvements, peaking around 11k. Before tailing off. 

3rd decade has seen a further tailing off. 

For me the 1st decade was a positive move from scrappy winter sport to a more vibrant summer game with things like the Grand Final and playoffs.

2nd decade was where we continued that, but then started to mess around with structure - licensing came and went, playoffs extended, super 8s etc. But in those early years of this decade we saw the strong clubs really start to drag the game forward, WCC games at Elland Road, Wigan starting to get their act together off the field, Bradford doing great, the buzz of Catalans coming in etc. 

3rd decade, for me we are seeing the outcome of a jumbled strategy. We have moved to a more TV model, with games on Thursday nights without adapting to address that drop off (the NRL is an extreme example of this imho - they are more about being a TV sport than live audiences), we see drop offs from structure fiddling etc. 

I worry that we haven't learnt anything from history. Ultimately, the clubs being strong have driven these attendances up and down. Replace Bradford with London, averages go down, not rocket science. Leeds, Wigan and Saints doing well and thriving drags up the average. 

Scrambling around with a new structure isn't going to drive any major changes either way imho, I'd rather we just had a pyramid and never changed the structure for the next 30 years, with number of teams the only variable. And then stop mucking about with it and focus on each team getting their house in order instead of hunting for a silver bullet. 

Sorry for the rambling, it's early

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

In 1990/91 we averaged 6.5k. In 1994/5 in the last proper season before Super League as you say we averaged 5.5k. However both of these were with a 16 team league, not a 12 team league. If we had a 16 team league now I'm not sure if the average would be a great deal better, considering 30 odd years of growth in other sports. We've also contracted to get there which isn't particularly great for the game as a whole. Now we are looking at contracting again to 10, which I'm sure will see another bump in the average but will mask a lot. 

We need to be careful of cherry picking stats - around 1988 we averaged 7.3, but only 3 years before that we were around 4.8k.

Tbh i think average crowds are a bit flawed in isolation, but can be useful for monitoring trends. 

The further complication is that if we looked back into the 80s and early 90s we would sometimes see many more cup games, some with decent crowds. I suppose it was a different game and a different time. 

I think ultimately we have too many weak teams in RL (or not enough strong teams). I don't agree with those who believe we spend too much time focusing on the lower teams - these are the ones that need support to grow (or be replaced). As a coach at various stages of my life in different fields, you could recognise that sometimes the biggest wins to strengthen a team were by strengthening the weaker parts. That may include replacing people/clubs though. 

How we do that is the question. More creative funding models perhaps, I don't know, but as healthy as our stronger clubs ever get, people will always be unhappy as some clubs return 3k.