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Are you worried about attendances?


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50 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

That is the sort of thing that might cost money initially, in terms of lost gate receipts but could (and probably would) pay dividends in terms of feel good factor, image of the game etc etc. 

But it would have to be done right and not just announced at the last moment. 

Yep, it would be an investment, but I think if you are ever going to be bold, this is it - and rather than looking like a giveaway because sales are tough, it looks more like a positive generous move after a ###### 2 years. 

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Yep, it would be an investment, but I think if you are ever going to be bold, this is it - and rather than looking like a giveaway because sales are tough, it looks more like a positive generous move after a ###### 2 years. 

Yes present it as a 'thank you' to fans for enduring a torrid time. It would also be good for the players too, to see out their season in style in front of full stadiums, rather than just sort of fizzle out, I'd say they deserved something to remember.

What shouldn't happen is that with a week left they say they are letting people in free as sales are terrible. Do what most other sports do and use a bit of BS, or even lie if necessary. The end would justify the means.

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On 28/08/2021 at 08:18, Dave T said:

Do we have any stats on the demographic of RL fans? Particularly age distribution? 

Because we often hear about an aging supporter base, but how true is that, and what are the reasons? As a sport we have worked hard attracting youth - we do a lot of work in schools and have very cheap kids tickets, it's also not unusual for free kids too. I see far more kids at games than you do at Prem League games, where they are swamped out by middle aged men. 

It would be interesting to know which age groups we see the drop off in - for example in my head I would expect it to be in the younger professionals segment - as people get more money I'm not convinced RL is aspirational enough for them, and those with a bit of free money look to spend it on more prestigious events. 

This view is however just a hypothesis, based somewhat on my own personal life, it'd be good to know that the game knows its customer base and behaviours, but I fear not. 

Very anecdotal and we'll all have different experiences, but rugby league has all but been squeezed out at my youngest kids primary school in Wigan.

No reflection on the rugby club, as I'm sure they do there best with limited resources and do a great job running sports day, but aside from that its all football, pretty much week in week out the Wigan Athletic community team is in school offering something either during PE or after school.  Not sure who, or how the football community programme is funded but, its well funded, well run and very effective.

Net result seems to be next to no interest in Rugby League, plenty in football, my kids just not interested, first generation in my family not to be interested in Rugby, yet there season ticket holders at the football and nagging to go to meaningless mid week cup games.

The only code of rugby my kids were offered at primary school, was from the local, amateur RU team, my little lad had a go but didn't want to carry on with it out of school or give league a try.  Sad really.
 

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14 hours ago, shrek said:

Very anecdotal and we'll all have different experiences, but rugby league has all but been squeezed out at my youngest kids primary school in Wigan.

No reflection on the rugby club, as I'm sure they do there best with limited resources and do a great job running sports day, but aside from that its all football, pretty much week in week out the Wigan Athletic community team is in school offering something either during PE or after school.  Not sure who, or how the football community programme is funded but, its well funded, well run and very effective.

Net result seems to be next to no interest in Rugby League, plenty in football, my kids just not interested, first generation in my family not to be interested in Rugby, yet there season ticket holders at the football and nagging to go to meaningless mid week cup games.

The only code of rugby my kids were offered at primary school, was from the local, amateur RU team, my little lad had a go but didn't want to carry on with it out of school or give league a try.  Sad really.
 

I think I'm right in saying that every PL, EFL and National League club is eligible to receive funding from the PL for the Premier League Kicks programme - which is probably where Wigan Athletic get the resources to do their schools development work. That sort of funding gives them the opportunity to go into schools and offer more than simply the odd football session, I've heard that in some schools football clubs have taken over not quite the entire PE offering but certainly a substantial part of it. For schools it's a no brainer because it's all paid for by someone else and their budgets have been cut massively over the past decade.

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3 hours ago, nadera78 said:

I think I'm right in saying that every PL, EFL and National League club is eligible to receive funding from the PL for the Premier League Kicks programme - which is probably where Wigan Athletic get the resources to do their schools development work. That sort of funding gives them the opportunity to go into schools and offer more than simply the odd football session, I've heard that in some schools football clubs have taken over not quite the entire PE offering but certainly a substantial part of it. For schools it's a no brainer because it's all paid for by someone else and their budgets have been cut massively over the past decade.

Was about to say the same. It's a model adopted by some RU clubs as well but not sure if that's centrally funded.

Tiny Ginger's first (state) Primary school had an entire term's worth of PE delivered by Arsenal. They wouldn't have had PE beyond movement classes without it. With multi academy trusts now being the norm I believe it's common for football foundations to partner across multiple schools via a partnership with a single trust. A lot of the 4G pitches round here - used by local schools and colleges - have signs connecting them to Chelsea so I presume there's a partnership going on there.

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7 hours ago, nadera78 said:

I think I'm right in saying that every PL, EFL and National League club is eligible to receive funding from the PL for the Premier League Kicks programme - which is probably where Wigan Athletic get the resources to do their schools development work. That sort of funding gives them the opportunity to go into schools and offer more than simply the odd football session, I've heard that in some schools football clubs have taken over not quite the entire PE offering but certainly a substantial part of it. For schools it's a no brainer because it's all paid for by someone else and their budgets have been cut massively over the past decade.

I don't know, we don't see any other branding other than Wigan Athletic, unless I've missed it, but they've been doing it for years, its a well run operation and must be separate to the football club as it carried on through last years administration unaffected and you're right it goes well beyond football, they offer all sorts of multi-sport after school activities. 

Doesn't mean for a second there all going to be Wigan Athletic fans mind, Barcelona was the most supported club in my daughters class, but then the point made earlier in the thread about Premier League grounds being filled by the middle aged, is probably true, so kids have just as much chance watching Barcelona on the TV as they have any of the other local Premier League sides.  Be interesting to see if there interests holds in later life and if they'll start paying to turn up to matches.

Agreed its a no brainer for schools, but goes to show what as a sport Rugby is up against.

 

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3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Was about to say the same. It's a model adopted by some RU clubs as well but not sure if that's centrally funded.

Tiny Ginger's first (state) Primary school had an entire term's worth of PE delivered by Arsenal. They wouldn't have had PE beyond movement classes without it. With multi academy trusts now being the norm I believe it's common for football foundations to partner across multiple schools via a partnership with a single trust. A lot of the 4G pitches round here - used by local schools and colleges - have signs connecting them to Chelsea so I presume there's a partnership going on there.

Probably best I don't get my MAT soup box out! 

But ours started before the trust took over, but I can only imagine they've embraced it as a Trust and cut back further on their own spend, its seems to be their way!

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  • 3 weeks later...

£25 adult walk up for Wigan next Thur. 

Head meets wall time. Is there a stupid rule as revenue may have an element of sharing that normal gate money must be charged? 

If so, how silly. 

Play off games should be a bonus, so wigan need to cover costs only. 

Imagine £5 a pop- 20k in stadium for £100k. 

Instead 9k at £15 ish (after discounts) so £135k but much worse atmosphere, worse product and £35k difference 

Which is approx 35k/ £250 ish- about 140 season tickets which you might persuade more people to buy after a 20k play off match 

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1 hour ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

£25 adult walk up for Wigan next Thur. 

Head meets wall time. Is there a stupid rule as revenue may have an element of sharing that normal gate money must be charged? 

If so, how silly. 

Play off games should be a bonus, so wigan need to cover costs only. 

Imagine £5 a pop- 20k in stadium for £100k. 

Instead 9k at £15 ish (after discounts) so £135k but much worse atmosphere, worse product and £35k difference 

Which is approx 35k/ £250 ish- about 140 season tickets which you might persuade more people to buy after a 20k play off match 

Play off games should be a premium, not a discount! There supposed to be important so should be priced accordingly, not given away.

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1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Play off games should be a premium, not a discount! There supposed to be important so should be priced accordingly, not given away.

For years our best matches have the poorest attendances. Why continue? 

There will be 9k ish there next week- much better to have 20k 

If you convince 200 or so of the 11k (1 in 55) who will watch on tv but might go if cheaper to buy a season pass then you are quids in and its a much better spectacle. 

 

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8 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Play off games should be a premium, not a discount! There supposed to be important so should be priced accordingly, not given away.

The problem is, that is all well and good Wellsy, but the crowds will be shocking and we will scratch our heads again. 

We have a culture of Season Tickets in RL. We either spend years moving away from that, or we embrace it further and get better crowds. 

And it isn't just RL - look at the controversy over the Man City crowd the other day - 38k versus their average 53k for a European opener. 

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32 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The problem is, that is all well and good Wellsy, but the crowds will be shocking and we will scratch our heads again. 

We have a culture of Season Tickets in RL. We either spend years moving away from that, or we embrace it further and get better crowds. 

And it isn't just RL - look at the controversy over the Man City crowd the other day - 38k versus their average 53k for a European opener. 

Other sports have just as much as a season ticket culture and but certainly don't suffer the same when it comes to premium events and one off games. In RL we are talking about literally a handful of Challenge Cup games and play off games.

Also season tickets have always existed in RL for as long as I can remember. They are nothing new and RL never used to suffer the way it does now. It's only in the last 15-20 years or so that this dependency, and so called season ticket culture that we all refer to in RL, has really taken hold. I suspect the often cheap price of season tickets and general laziness that exists when it comes to selling the game has contributed to this. When a fan has bought a season ticket for £65 it then becomes awfully difficult to sell a one off game for £25.

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40 minutes ago, Damien said:

Other sports have just as much as a season ticket culture and but certainly don't suffer the same when it comes to premium events and one off games. In RL we are talking about literally a handful of Challenge Cup games and play off games.

Also season tickets have always existed in RL for as long as I can remember. They are nothing new and RL never used to suffer the way it does now. It's only in the last 15-20 years or so that this dependency, and so called season ticket culture that we all refer to in RL, has really taken hold. I suspect the often cheap price of season tickets and general laziness that exists when it comes to selling the game has contributed to this. When a fan has bought a season ticket for £65 it then becomes awfully difficult to sell a one off game for £25.

I've highlighted the 15k missing fans at Man City the other night. I've also been at the Etihad for cup games with 30k in. Even Man Utd have empty seats at some cup games. Often these are hidden at football because the demand can exceed the capacities. 

We have really focused on the season ticket culture - that can't be ignored. Fans didn't just suddenly change their behaviour and stop going to cup games, we changed the purchasing behaviours. 

But history is irrelevant in this discussion anyway, as things stand, people attend season ticket games, and only around maybe 60 to 70% attend all pay games. We can't blindly ignore that and complain that fans should come. 

Rugby Union does also include group Cup games in season tickets for example - things can be done differently. 

Edited by Dave T
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5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I’m sure I remember something about playoff gates being shared between those who qualify, so prices can’t be discounted?

Yes, it's a SL event - so arrangements are made centrally. Wire fans were asking could they just exchange their tickets for a postponed game earlier in the year and being told no for this reason. 

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37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Rugby Union does also include group Cup games in season tickets for example - things can be done differently. 

I *believe* that RU essentially got rid of all the Cups that were union controlled - and so would require revenue sharing and the like - and now just has the European ones which are club controlled (or at least club entity controlled) so the qualifying clubs can do what they like with regards to season ticket entry (etc).

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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43 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I’m sure I remember something about playoff gates being shared between those who qualify, so prices can’t be discounted?

Yes, it's such a stupid rule. 

I take points about premium games should command higher prices, but we are where we are, rather than where we want to be. 

4 sell out matches before grand final would have better long term impact- it's essential the new revenue distribution allows for this. 

Holy grail would be a central rfl ticketing site for all club and international matches- easy to use/ buy, could link in with our league. Sell tickets on their till midnight day before and then do in person pay on day sales. 

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26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I've highlighted the 15k missing fans at Man City the other night. I've also been at the Etihad for cup games with 30k in. Even Man Utd have empty seats at some cup games. Often these are hidden at football because the demand can exceed the capacities. 

We have really focused on the season ticket culture - that can't be ignored. Fans didn't just suddenly change their behaviour and stop going to cup games, we changed the purchasing behaviours. 

But history is irrelevant in this discussion anyway, as things stand, people attend season ticket games, and only around maybe 60 to 70% attend all pay games. We can't blindly ignore that and complain that fans should come. 

Rugby Union does also include group Cup games in season tickets for example - things can be done differently. 

The semi finals of the Champions League wont have empty seats. That is our play off equivalent. Comparisons between football and RL are usually not particularly valid and awfully selective, as this is. In football there may be 20+ games not on a season ticket, in RL it is very few and if we had 2/3s full stadiums for a mid week cup game v Catalans I don't think anyone would complain. The trouble is in Football it is not particularly the norm or a problem, certainly not for key matches, in RL it most certainly is the norm and is certainly a problem.

How have we focused on season tickets? I certainly agree there is a season ticket culture but apart from making them very cheap I cant recall any real focus. They have become the same lazy way of selling as we have seen through nearly all of our big events. Sell them cheap and job done for the rest of the season. There is nothing wrong with season tickets, they have a place and are fine but the balance has been skewed and when a season ticket sells for £65 a one off game for £25 becomes an awfully hard sell and seems like terrible value. As I said they have always been there but few people used them compared to now. Season tickets, in conjunction, with other general failures in the marketing and selling of the game have led to where we now stand.

I do agree that is now where we are but I do think the game needs to change that and not just keep going down the cheap sells path. I know the game has never been blue chip but it was always more akin to a Morrisons than the Bargain Booze that we have now become. The game really has to work collectively to change that across the board. As I said previously I would try to shift towards a membership approach where someone pays an amount upfront such as £80, as they would for a season ticket, but then get a big discount for each game thereafter. The club still gets money upfront but fans still buy tickets on a weekly basis and get back in that habit. Fans could also benefit from other club discounts and one off games wouldn't be such a huge cost. We can still have season tickets but something like this would provide a halfway house and move us away from that culture.

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