NRL postpone expansion

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

 

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Was always going to be the Dolphins. Fishing where there are fish, so to speak. 

Wonder what the name will be…Brisbane Dolphins? 

I’m not so sure it was to be honest - there was a strong argument locally that using an existing QLD Cup team would stop them engaging the supporters of other Cup sides, so better a “newer” team less connected to local history. Plus the Ipswich corridor has strong demographic components 

 

Redcliffe Dolphins as an commercial organisation outside of rugby is loaded though, like “afford to lose $5m a year for 20 years” type of loaded, so it’s the safest option. Which in the Vlandy’s & post-Covid era carries more weight that prior eras. Gold Coast have needed re-financing, new investor groups etc etc a couple of times since launch and the Dolphins choice definitely makes that very unlikely.
 

Let’s be honest, if the NRL was making strategic decisions then they’d be putting Team 18 into Perth in 2023 too, open up a new TV advertising market, end the “you’re not a national sport” nonsense and with the time-zone create a whole new TV slot. But this isn’t the late ‘80’s, and Vlandy’s isn’t John Quayle eh… unfortunately  
 

[UTK]

23 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

 

I’m not so sure it was to be honest - there was a strong argument locally that using an existing QLD Cup team would stop them engaging the supporters of other Cup sides, so better a “newer” team less connected to local history. Plus the Ipswich corridor has strong demographic components 

 

Redcliffe Dolphins as an commercial organisation outside of rugby is loaded though, like “afford to lose $5m a year for 20 years” type of loaded, so it’s the safest option. Which in the Vlandy’s & post-Covid era carries more weight that prior eras. Gold Coast have needed re-financing, new investor groups etc etc a couple of times since launch and the Dolphins choice definitely makes that very unlikely.
 

Let’s be honest, if the NRL was making strategic decisions then they’d be putting Team 18 into Perth in 2023 too, open up a new TV advertising market, end the “you’re not a national sport” nonsense and with the time-zone create a whole new TV slot. But this isn’t the late ‘80’s, and Vlandy’s isn’t John Quayle eh… unfortunately  
 

Yeah the bonus of financial security for the 17th team really needs to be used so that we can take on a 'riskier' option for the 18th moving forward (Perth/NZ2). 

Both have their pluses and minuses but there's a bit more uncertainty around NZ as we don't yet know the impact of the Warriors spending 3 years away from home.

[Copa]

7 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Despite the hype coming out of Vicky Kicky circles this will be a huge blow to fumbleball in Queensland, but i hope the ARLC don't neglect the Ipswich area

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/news-corp-strikes-75m-deal-with-nrl-to-prop-up-2023-redcliffe-expansion-20211004-p58x16.html

It makes me happy to know there's an englishman, in england, using the term "Vicky Kicky"!

[JohnM]

On 28/07/2021 at 12:15, Copa said:

It really is. It’s always nice to visit the UK where gambling has a lower profile. Yes, that’s really true. It’s insane in Australia.

In 2017, the average amount gambled per year by people 18 and over was over $12,000 per person. That’s roughly £6,349.

Sounds bad. Source? Up to date data?

In the UK we. Have premium bonds and the national lottery. Similar in Aus and included in the figures?

[gingerjon]

28 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Sounds bad. Source? Up to date data?

In the UK we. Have premium bonds and the national lottery. Similar in Aus and included in the figures?

2017-18 data, summarised (and referenced) here:

"The latest statistics published by the Queensland Treasury in the 35th edition of Australian Gambling Statistics (regarded as the authoritative source of gambling statistics in Australia) show that, in total, Australians bet more than $242 billion in 2017-18. Two. Hundred. Forty-Two. Billion. The previous year (16-17), this figure was $208 billion.

Averaged out across all 19.75 million Australians aged over 18 (based on Australian Bureau of Statistics data), this is more than $12,000 per person! Of the various forms of gambling:

$25.8 billion was spent on racing ($1,340 per capita)

$181.4 billion was spent on gaming, like casinos and the pokies ($9,419 per capita)

$11.6 billion on sports betting ($603 per capita)"

https://www.savings.com.au/savings-accounts/gambling-statistics-australia 

[Copa]

49 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Sounds bad. Source? Up to date data?

In the UK we. Have premium bonds and the national lottery. Similar in Aus and included in the figures?

See gingerjon’s post above for one source. It’s also semi-regularly covered in the press.

It’s our national shame. It’s hard to find any other country on earth with Australian level gambling problems.

Pension day in a venue with poker machines (same as US slot machines) is also a very sad sight indeed.

Unless you live here and experience it it’s hard to comprehend the sheer scale of the problem.

[Pulga]

11 minutes ago, Copa said:

See gingerjon’s post above for one source. It’s also semi-regularly covered in the press.

It’s our national shame. It’s hard to find any other country on earth with Australian level gambling problems.

Pension day in a venue with poker machines (same as US slot machines) is also a very sad sight indeed.

Unless you live here and experience it it’s hard to comprehend the sheer scale of the problem.

I wonder how much comes from that retired demographic. I did some work on the local RSL and it was sad seeing the oldies queuing up before it opened just so they could spend the whole day sat at the pokies.

[The Future is League]

9 hours ago, Copa said:

It makes me happy to know there's an englishman, in england, using the term "Vicky Kicky"!

Never forget that there isn't a single professional or semi professional ARFC outside of Australia, which shows its lack of appeal outside of Australia and it couldn't survive without taxpayers money and lets not forget either the times they have been caught falsifying junior player numbers in NSW an QLD to get more tax payers money

[Jonty58]

6 hours ago, Copa said:

See gingerjon’s post above for one source. It’s also semi-regularly covered in the press.

It’s our national shame. It’s hard to find any other country on earth with Australian level gambling problems.

Pension day in a venue with poker machines (same as US slot machines) is also a very sad sight indeed.

Unless you live here and experience it it’s hard to comprehend the sheer scale of the problem.

I have family in Australia and once lived there for awhile.
I did not know of anyone that was a mad gambler spending the sort of money posted above

Those numbers quoted seem off the charts, most working class Aussies would not have that sort of money to burn.

The days of Clubs riding off the back of Poker Machines was decades ago, I am sure there are still plenty that play them but many of that generation are pensioners now.

There are only 20 Casinos in all of Australia.

Sydney has a Club culture but not so much elsewhere.

I guess the facts are the facts but something does not add up.

 

[The Great Dane]

1 hour ago, Jonty58 said:

I have family in Australia and once lived there for awhile.
I did not know of anyone that was a mad gambler spending the sort of money posted above

Those numbers quoted seem off the charts, most working class Aussies would not have that sort of money to burn.

The days of Clubs riding off the back of Poker Machines was decades ago, I am sure there are still plenty that play them but many of that generation are pensioners now.

There are only 20 Casinos in all of Australia.

Sydney has a Club culture but not so much elsewhere.

I guess the facts are the facts but something does not add up.

 

Yeah those numbers are certainly massively skewed by a tiny minority of high rollers.

Professional gamblers and rich blokes with more money than sense spend fortunes on gambling each year.

8 hours ago, Copa said:

It’s our national shame. It’s hard to find any other country on earth with Australian level gambling problems.

What nonsense.

Every country has serious gambling problems, the only difference between Australia and most other places is that gambling is legal and out in the open here, where as it's more underground in most other nations and thus the problems associated with it are more stigmatised and in the shadows as well.

Prohibition doesn't work, in fact it's universally made things much worse each time it's attempted, and the last thing this country needs is another 'war on drugs' situation.

[The Great Dane]

19 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Despite the hype coming out of Vicky Kicky circles this will be a huge blow to fumbleball in Queensland, but i hope the ARLC don't neglect the Ipswich area

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/news-corp-strikes-75m-deal-with-nrl-to-prop-up-2023-redcliffe-expansion-20211004-p58x16.html

Expansion in Brisbane will have absolutely no effect on the AFL in Brisbane, or anywhere else for that matter. That war is being fought almost exclusively in the grassroots.

If the NRL were truly serious about combating the AFL's growth north of the Murray then they'd be sinking money and resources into the grassroots and community footy across NSW, the ACT, and Qld, not throwing away another license on a loaded suburban club with a tiny fanbase and a low ceiling for growth.

The AFL aren't even pushing into Redcliffe/Morton Bay anyway, they're pushing hardest into Ipswich and the South and West of Brisbane in SE Qld. So even on that level the 'we're fighting back against the AFL' narrative doesn't make any sense.

[DC77]

3 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Never forget that there isn't a single professional or semi professional ARFC outside of Australia, which shows its lack of appeal outside of Australia and it couldn't survive without taxpayers money and lets not forget either the times they have been caught falsifying junior player numbers in NSW an QLD to get more tax payers money

It’s got nowt to do with lack of appeal. Australia didn’t have an Empire to spread its game like the Brits did to its outposts. RL (plus RU and cricket) are British commonwealth sports (southwest France being the exception w/ both rugby codes played outside British dominion). Had the roles been reversed and there was an Aussie Empire sending Aussies to Blighty there’s a high chance Aussie Rules would be played here.

[DC77]

17 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Expansion in Brisbane will have absolutely no effect on the AFL in Brisbane, or anywhere else for that matter. That war is being fought almost exclusively in the grassroots.

If the NRL were truly serious about combating the AFL's growth north of the Murray then they'd be sinking money and resources into the grassroots and community footy across NSW, the ACT, and Qld, not throwing away another license on a loaded suburban club with a tiny fanbase and a low ceiling for growth.

The AFL aren't even pushing into Redcliffe/Morton Bay anyway, they're pushing hardest into Ipswich and the South and West of Brisbane in SE Qld. So even on that level the 'we're fighting back against the AFL' narrative doesn't make any sense.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/is-rugby-league-dying-the-never-before-released-numbers-that-have-nrl-powerbrokers-concerned-20210519-p57tah.html

It’s one of those cliched “rugby league is dying” articles, but looking beyond that there is a decline in participation in teens when it comes to the contact version of the sport. Don’t know if Aussie Rules has quite the same concussion issue so there may or may not be any gain for them.

[The Great Dane]

1 hour ago, DC77 said:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/is-rugby-league-dying-the-never-before-released-numbers-that-have-nrl-powerbrokers-concerned-20210519-p57tah.html

It’s one of those cliched “rugby league is dying” articles, but looking beyond that there is a decline in participation in teens when it comes to the contact version of the sport. Don’t know if Aussie Rules has quite the same concussion issue so there may or may not be any gain for them.

I never claimed that there wasn't a decline in male participation in full contact RL in Australia, there most certainly is.

What I said was that the NRL expanding in Brisbane will have little to no impact on that decline, nor will it hamper the AFL's growth in NSW, Qld, or the ACT in any significant way.

In this case the only reason anybody is pushing the 'code war' narrative is because it's a good bit of propaganda that pushes newspapers.

BTW, the AFL's male participation numbers in the full version of the sport were declining in most of their traditional markets pre-covid (IDK about post-covid), and that is partly because of parents concerns about CTE.

[The Great Dane]

1 hour ago, DC77 said:

It’s got nowt to do with lack of appeal. Australia didn’t have an Empire to spread its game like the Brits did to its outposts. RL (plus RU and cricket) are British commonwealth sports (southwest France being the exception w/ both rugby codes played outside British dominion). Had the roles been reversed and there was an Aussie Empire sending Aussies to Blighty there’s a high chance Aussie Rules would be played here.

The AFL has never seriously tried to expand their footprint outside of Australia either.

It'd be very expensive, which is what has probably turned them off when they've toyed with the idea in the past, but I have no doubt that if they really wanted to they could expand their footprint overseas.

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, DC77 said:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/is-rugby-league-dying-the-never-before-released-numbers-that-have-nrl-powerbrokers-concerned-20210519-p57tah.html

It’s one of those cliched “rugby league is dying” articles, but looking beyond that there is a decline in participation in teens when it comes to the contact version of the sport. Don’t know if Aussie Rules has quite the same concussion issue so there may or may not be any gain for them.

Fumbleball junior playing numbers are declining in Victoria 

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, The Great Dane said:

Expansion in Brisbane will have absolutely no effect on the AFL in Brisbane, or anywhere else for that matter. That war is being fought almost exclusively in the grassroots.

If the NRL were truly serious about combating the AFL's growth north of the Murray then they'd be sinking money and resources into the grassroots and community footy across NSW, the ACT, and Qld, not throwing away another license on a loaded suburban club with a tiny fanbase and a low ceiling for growth.

The AFL aren't even pushing into Redcliffe/Morton Bay anyway, they're pushing hardest into Ipswich and the South and West of Brisbane in SE Qld. So even on that level the 'we're fighting back against the AFL' narrative doesn't make any sense.

Fumbleball is/has tried to expand into Moreton bay. I'm surprised you wasn't aware of that

[Copa]

6 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Yeah those numbers are certainly massively skewed by a tiny minority of high rollers.

Professional gamblers and rich blokes with more money than sense spend fortunes on gambling each year.

What nonsense.

Every country has serious gambling problems, the only difference between Australia and most other places is that gambling is legal and out in the open here, where as it's more underground in most other nations and thus the problems associated with it are more stigmatised and in the shadows as well.

Prohibition doesn't work, in fact it's universally made things much worse each time it's attempted, and the last thing this country needs is another 'war on drugs' situation.

I agree there’s gambling everywhere, legal and illegal, but in Australia it’s far more intertwined with our culture than in many places. We even promote sports and racing gambling during family television which totally normalises it in the minds of children so they become the problem gamblers of the future. It all contributes to why we have some of the biggest issues with gambling in the world.

We also have something like 20% of the world’s gaming machine yet we have around 0.3% of the world’s population.

While every country has gambling issues ours are far worse than most countries on earth. It just doesn’t feel bad for many Australians because it feels so normal.

[rlno1]

On 05/10/2021 at 08:53, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

 

I’m not so sure it was to be honest - there was a strong argument locally that using an existing QLD Cup team would stop them engaging the supporters of other Cup sides, so better a “newer” team less connected to local history. Plus the Ipswich corridor has strong demographic components 

 

Redcliffe Dolphins as an commercial organisation outside of rugby is loaded though, like “afford to lose $5m a year for 20 years” type of loaded, so it’s the safest option. Which in the Vlandy’s & post-Covid era carries more weight that prior eras. Gold Coast have needed re-financing, new investor groups etc etc a couple of times since launch and the Dolphins choice definitely makes that very unlikely.
 

Let’s be honest, if the NRL was making strategic decisions then they’d be putting Team 18 into Perth in 2023 too, open up a new TV advertising market, end the “you’re not a national sport” nonsense and with the time-zone create a whole new TV slot. But this isn’t the late ‘80’s, and Vlandy’s isn’t John Quayle eh… unfortunately  
 

Agreed...the real reason the second Brisbane team is coming in is to drive subscriptions for Kayo the game is secondary. News corp and the clubs call the shots and Vlandys is the mouthpiece.

[rlno1]

On 05/10/2021 at 06:51, The Future is League said:

Despite the hype coming out of Vicky Kicky circles this will be a huge blow to fumbleball in Queensland, but i hope the ARLC don't neglect the Ipswich area

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/news-corp-strikes-75m-deal-with-nrl-to-prop-up-2023-redcliffe-expansion-20211004-p58x16.html

I heard Brent Read on the Triple M podcast saying that this area will now see the Broncos taking a more active role in.

The area had been left for the Titans to get going but they had lacked appeal so now the Broncos will have more presence and influence on the ground.

[rlno1]

8 hours ago, DC77 said:

It’s got nowt to do with lack of appeal. Australia didn’t have an Empire to spread its game like the Brits did to its outposts. RL (plus RU and cricket) are British commonwealth sports (southwest France being the exception w/ both rugby codes played outside British dominion). Had the roles been reversed and there was an Aussie Empire sending Aussies to Blighty there’s a high chance Aussie Rules would be played here.

True...the only country Australia had an influence was PNG and rugby league is now its national sport.

[The Great Dane]

4 hours ago, Copa said:

I agree there’s gambling everywhere, legal and illegal, but in Australia it’s far more intertwined with our culture than in many places. We even promote sports and racing gambling during family television which totally normalises it in the minds of children so they become the problem gamblers of the future. It all contributes to why we have some of the biggest issues with gambling in the world.

We also have something like 20% of the world’s gaming machine yet we have around 0.3% of the world’s population.

While every country has gambling issues ours are far worse than most countries on earth. It just doesn’t feel bad for many Australians because it feels so normal.

You are making the exact same mistake you were making before of assuming that because gambling is legal and controlled, and thus better monitored with more reliable data in Australia, that that means it's more prevalent in Australia than in other nations. It's not particularly more prevalent in Australia, it's just way easier to collect data on something that is legal than illegal.

Your 20% of the worlds pokies stat is utterly meaningless as well. No #### Australia has more pokies than your average nation, they are way more tightly controlled or illegal in most other nations, but that doesn't mean that gambling isn't happening in other nations, only that it's happening in other ways or on the black market in other nations where it's uncontrolled and as such is hard to track.

You're ignoring my greater point anyway; prohibition doesn't work and has universally made things worse when it's been enforced. So even if you got what you want you wouldn't get rid of the demand for gambling and all you would achieve is to create a gap in the market that organised crime would fill, which would only make gambling more dangerous for everyone involved.

I think you just need to come to terms with the fact that not only do you not have any real power over people to prevent them from doing what they want to do, but that it's also none your business, and as such you should learn to live and let live instead of pushing authoritarian ###### that doesn't even work.

[The Great Dane]

Double post.

[The Great Dane]

9 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Fumbleball is/has tried to expand into Moreton bay. I'm surprised you wasn't aware of that

Aussie Rules is actively trying to expand it's market share basically everywhere in NSW, Qld, and the ACT. However they put more effort into some markets over others, and in Brisbane their main strategic targets have been Ipswich and South West Brisbane more generally.

The AFL and Lions are investing stupid amounts of money into juniors in Ipswich, they are investing heavily in property in Ipswich and surrounds, are building state of the art training facilities in Springfield, etc, etc. If the NRL expanding in Brisbane was really about combating the AFL's growth in Brisbane then they'd be taking the fight to them in those regions, not wasting a license on a team in Morton Bay with low growth potential.

Of course it's never actually been about combating the AFL's growth, and 99% of the AFL's growth has come in markets without direct representation in the AFL anyway, i.e. it's a war in the grassroots and the AFL are winning because their grassroots are way better organised and funded than the NRL's.

[Copa]

56 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

You are making the exact same mistake you were making before of assuming that because gambling is legal and controlled, and thus better monitored with more reliable data in Australia, that that means it's more prevalent in Australia than in other nations. It's not particularly more prevalent in Australia, it's just way easier to collect data on something that is legal than illegal.

Your 20% of the worlds pokies stat is utterly meaningless as well. No #### Australia has more pokies than your average nation, they are way more tightly controlled or illegal in most other nations, but that doesn't mean that gambling isn't happening in other nations, only that it's happening in other ways or on the black market in other nations where it's uncontrolled and as such is hard to track.

You're ignoring my greater point anyway; prohibition doesn't work and has universally made things worse when it's been enforced. So even if you got what you want you wouldn't get rid of the demand for gambling and all you would achieve is to create a gap in the market that organised crime would fill, which would only make gambling more dangerous for everyone involved.

I think you just need to come to terms with the fact that not only do you not have any real power over people to prevent them from doing what they want to do, but that it's also none your business, and as such you should learn to live and let live instead of pushing authoritarian ###### that doesn't even work.

You’ve totally missed my point. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.