Hela Wigmen Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: I would suggest you start by reading it and making some constructive comments. I did. It’s comically bad. I’m amazed anyone who has watched and understood the game would come up with that, firstly. You’re obsession with cross division games and now clubs bundled in together despite huge disparity is odd. I’ve never seen anyone ever suggest them or anyone who actually wants them. The disparity between clubs earning over £1m and those not even earning six figures is alarming. That’s before you even think about clubs with deeply ingrained infrastructures up against part-time teams with no infrastructure. It would be carnage and not the good kind. Player welfare would be a huge issue, as would scorelines, the disparity between clubs in conferences and trying to sell that to any credible broadcaster. I’ve seen your defence of “yeah some teams might not be the same level they are now”, just as they might not under the current structure. The current structure does not put teams out to be annihilated and place players in the way of potential harm through being set up against full time athletes and internationals. I’m sorry but it’s just not a good idea. I get the calls for change and the calls for doing something different but this is not it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 Just now, Damien said: Well standards aren't going to get any better when they get a fraction of the funding, £80k v £1.28m, and when some of these clubs play at glorified park grounds. You can foresee the future! As I said in the paper, the distribution I've instanced is just one potential model. One of the problems for smaller clubs right now is that they can't attract investors because there is no clear pathway to reach the top other than by gambling on gaining an uncertain promotion. With this structure there would at least be a clear vision of how they can attain success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 6 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: You obviously prefer posting on here to reading and understanding. And it appears that you prefer throwing insults around because people think your idea is not very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said: It’s comically bad. I actually laughed out loud when I read 'Three Nations Conference' and its proposed constituents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: That's the point. We've been heading down a road marked 'failure' for too long. And the RFL's proposal doubles down on that, while saying to many clubs that they serve little purpose. I value all the clubs. But if we carry on as we are, we're getting far too close to the point of no return. I don't think it's remotely a good plan *but* if you really wanted to make it work then you'd do two things differently. Firstly, the RFL (or an entity such as Rugby League EuroCorp) would be the owner of all the clubs involved. Because there isn't room for issues caused by dodgy or inattentive (or just short of cash) ownership. You could then also force a spread of players to improve competitiveness. Secondly, and linked, you wouldn't have such a wide disparity between top and bottom in a single conference. One team getting £80,000 versus another getting millions is ridiculous and unsustainable. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 Wouldn’t be a bad idea if it was for Championship & L1 clubs but having Superleague clubs involved is just plain daft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 Just now, Martyn Sadler said: You can foresee the future! As I said in the paper, the distribution I've instanced is just one potential model. One of the problems for smaller clubs right now is that they can't attract investors because there is no clear pathway to reach the top other than by gambling on gaining an uncertain promotion. With this structure there would at least be a clear vision of how they can attain success. Its common sense. You don't need to be Nostradamus to see its a terrible idea that is flawed beyond belief. And as I've said whatever funding model you choose it wont work. Going to the other extreme splitting diminishing TV revenue evenly 32 ways results in only a few full time clubs. This means poor games and terrible standards. Even at that you still have vast inequalities due to the size of clubs and we will still have very one sided games. We see that now in Super League with 12 clubs getting the same and running full time clubs. All of those issues are compounded many times over when 32 teams get only something like £600,000 each. With your structure clubs still have to gamble to compete or they are perennial whipping boys. Nothing changes that. Its fantasy stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 I find the idea of home and away league fixtures between Catalans Dragons and West Wales Raiders so preposterous I can't believe Martyn is serious. It would be like putting Liverpool and Southport or Sale Sharks and Sale RFC in the same division. Absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blues Ox Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said: I keep banging the same drum but nobody is listening! All community clubs want to see their best players reach their full potential whether that's in the pro game or international amateurs, but these coaches/officials know the majority of the lads going to the academies won't make it as professionals as they aren't good enough and a lot of those rejected players don't go back to their original amateur club when their pro contract ends. Put simply, we can't afford to lose players at that age year on year. Let's open discussions with the community clubs and get their take on things as opposed to the subservient relationship that's there now We are preaching from the same hymn book. There needs to be a way to stop the SL teams coming in to all amateur teams and just signing everyone up simply because they are playing the percentages and know that 2 or 3 out of maybe 50 or so will be good enough to play in SL. Eventually the other 47 a few will filter down in to the Championship but most will go back to amateur or simply leave the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 48 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: I know you're trying to make a comment to sound clever, but I would have hoped you could have done better than that. No Martyn, from someone who lives outside the heartlands and works with people outside the heartlands I am trying to show you how ridiculous and corner shop this whole situation (not just your article) looks. My colleague who I sometimes talk about RL to (not a RL fan) explained to me the other day. Wigan and Leeds and Hull and Catalans and St Helens are like big clubs I've heard of. Why isn't the game concentrated solely on trying to create more of those, more big crowds, big revenues and big TV audiences. He has little or no interest anything other than that. I would assume he is not alone. Now that is radical. Moving the deck chairs is avoiding the conversation. Without that thinking there would be no Melbourne Storm, no NZ Warriors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 We have a hard division between amateur and Semi Professional clubs and players, why wouldn't we have one between Semi-Pro and Full Time Professionals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve oates Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Chris22 said: A lot of thought and work has gone into that, clearly, so I don't want to just pan it. Especially as so many have complaints but few put forward solutions. But I struggle to see fans of Super League clubs paying to watch walkovers against part time players. I also don't see Sky wanting to broadcast it. Then there are player welfare concerns arising from so many mismatches. And the question of where the funding comes from. No Chris, I certainly don't want to just pan it either.... I have a feeling that the clubs don't want "licensing" and want to open up the chance for any club to make a bid for Superleague via winning a promotion spot in the 14 club league. If clubs have the ambition and money to back themselves for SL then they will spend it and strengthen. Leigh were one club that didn't have time to strengthen, their owner didn't have time to spend his money. I guess for next season he will spend it in spades. I guess championship clubs have the chance unlike Leigh who came into SL last minute to strengthen now and maybe go full time 2022. I guess if any championship club doesn't want to go professional they won't be made to play in the 14 club competition. They can give way. As for 2023 I guess that most of the 2x10 will be professional with some makeweights at the bottom end of SL2. This seems to be about the owners, it's kind of "get your money out lads" time!! There will be a third division of 16 clubs with no funding for the "Part timers" but having said that, will it turn out to be 16 clubs?? There is your league of mismatches perhaps Chris.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris22 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 54 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: Sky will of course not broadcast the matches that are likely to be one-sided, but that will be a minority of games. What I've tried to do is create a system that gives all clubs an incentive to improve organically. Do appreciate that but would also have a degree of player welfare concerns with part time players being consistently put up against some of the best professional players in the country. Like I said before, it is easy to criticise and far harder to put forward solutions. Whilst I don't think any structure change will resolve the issues we face, it certainly helps to have won open discussion about the best way to progress the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerrumonside ref Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 There just aren’t enough rich people with dreams of owning a rugby league club to make Martyn’s scheme work. If there were than a franchise and conference system would make sense. As it is, there aren’t so it doesn’t make sense and could be dangerous for player welfare as others have mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 58 minutes ago, del capo said: Has Martyn totally lost the plot ? Even the NCL are struggling with some mismatches following a conference type system enforced by Covid. Apart from anything else what's left of the fan base will vote with their feet if ever such a plan came to fruition. Whatever happened to Little Mo's ' Framing the Future ' all those years ago ? Out of respect for Martyn I decided to read his vision again. The latter parts of his plan have some merit in that fans MAY get the opportunity of seeing new opponents to those at present. But I still can't get past the problem of a likely total collapse of gates at SL level for the first 10 weeks of the season St Helens get Warrington and that quite frankly is it - Will the thousands turn up at Wigan for Swinton , Oldham or Rochdale ? they've just stuck 50 on Leigh..... if that should happen the whole of RL becomes terminal half way through the season. Income is absolutely key to everything. The proposed funding re distribution is inequitable and will not work - and perversely it is the top clubs that need it the most to remain competitive within the general public's eye as a sport worthy of more than a casual glance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 On 02/08/2021 at 16:30, Griff said: Spend full cap on whom? Easy, if the cap is raised the very same player's get a rise, nothing more nothing less, there are no other player's to sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve oates Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 10 minutes ago, Chris22 said: Do appreciate that but would also have a degree of player welfare concerns with part time players being consistently put up against some of the best professional players in the country.Like I said before, it is easy to criticise and far harder to put forward solutions. Whilst I don't think any structure change will resolve the issues we face, it certainly helps to have won open discussion about the best way to progress the game. OH I do apologise, you were talking about this:- Conference 1 (Western Conference) St Helens.v.Workington Conference 2 (Greater Manchester Conference) Wigan Warriors.v.Rochdale Conference 3 (Pennine Conference) Huddersfield Giants.v.Keighley Cougars Conference 4 (North East Conference) Leeds Rhinos.v.Hunslet Conference 5 (Eastern Conference) Hull FC.v.Coventry Bears Conference 6 (Three Nations Conference) Catalans Dragons.v.West Wales Raiders Point entirely taken. It's not going to happen anyway..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 Just now, Davo5 said: Wouldn’t be a bad idea if it was for Championship & L1 clubs but having Superleague clubs involved is just plain daft. That’s a more sensible idea than part time teams on 80k against teams on £1m+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve oates Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Easy, if the cap is raised the very same player's get a rise, nothing more nothing less, there are no other player's to sign. Leigh are apparently "closing in" on two NRL players and players may come on the market between now and next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakefield Ram Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 5 hours ago, MattSantos said: Yes, fewer players is the answer! Jesus wept From memory there's 10 academy sides, so 200-250 players of whom maybe 30-40 get signed. Many players are signed who have little / no prospect of making it, but are signed to make up the numbers. If you need 4 props in a squad, the best 4 props get signed regardless of whether they have any chance of making pro. Taking 200-250 of the best juniors damages the community game by making it harder for them to field teams. Many of the Academy players who does not make pro, quit the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Tommygilf said: Only 2 of the u17s at Leeds are being paid a penny this year to play. 1 has already played for the first team multiple times and the other can't be far behind. The rest, including those in the academy origin clash, are playing for free. I know you’ve mentioned this before Tom. I don’t really know how wide spread it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Lowdesert said: I know you’ve mentioned this before Tom. I don’t really know how wide spread it is. I can't say I know for certain either with anyone else, it would be interesting to see how other clubs have managed it. I know in the recent past some academy players doing virtually full time training were on something like £60 a week at othet clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said: I keep banging the same drum but nobody is listening! All community clubs want to see their best players reach their full potential whether that's in the pro game or international amateurs, but these coaches/officials know the majority of the lads going to the academies won't make it as professionals as they aren't good enough and a lot of those rejected players don't go back to their original amateur club when their pro contract ends. Put simply, we can't afford to lose players at that age year on year. Let's open discussions with the community clubs and get their take on things as opposed to the subservient relationship that's there now Not sure if that’s referring to me or not but I an totally for the Community game as well as totally for having Academies. But, I will repeat, the answer is not just ‘get rid of academies’, the same as it’s not to ‘decimate the Community clubs’. There has to be a balance which I referred to some while ago together with the HKR/Bastion approach where they took a full team out of Skirkaugh. We have to accept that some good Community players will not make it, neither will some bad ones. How they are dealt with at the Pro Clubs absolutely has a lot to do with it and players leaving the game altogether. This is where the focus should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: I can't say I know for certain either with anyone else, it would be interesting to see how other clubs have managed it. I know in the recent past some academy players doing virtually full time training were on something like £60 a week at othet clubs. Yes, that is a general figure and a good few we’re on that when I was involved. Strangely enough, some that got poached by Leeds from Hull were on a lot more! Times have changed. Some Leeds lads did ok today though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 53 minutes ago, Scubby said: No Martyn, from someone who lives outside the heartlands and works with people outside the heartlands I am trying to show you how ridiculous and corner shop this whole situation (not just your article) looks. My colleague who I sometimes talk about RL to (not a RL fan) explained to me the other day. Wigan and Leeds and Hull and Catalans and St Helens are like big clubs I've heard of. Why isn't the game concentrated solely on trying to create more of those, more big crowds, big revenues and big TV audiences. He has little or no interest anything other than that. What does that actually mean? A five team league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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