League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

[Big Picture]

27 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Many of the teams in the NFL at the time were located in what might be termed their own version of the M62 corridor.

This is not remotely true.  In 1960 only four out of thirteen NFL teams were in the Midwest states where the league began: Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland and Green Bay.

27 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

And I would suggest that Green Bay was hardly a major population centre at the time.

Green Bay survived by expanding their catchment area to take in all of Wisconsin and becoming Wisconsin's team rather than just Green Bay's team.  They achieved that by initiatives such as moving two home matches a year (at a time when the season was only 12 rounds so they only had six home matches total) to Milwaukee.

That is clearly not something any of the traditional RL clubs in England could ever do; hemmed in as they are by other clubs in close proximity they're all stuck with very small catchment areas.

[Man of Kent]

NFL! Has Martyn been at the cheese again? 

[Liverpool Rover]

57 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

This is not remotely true.  In 1960 only four out of thirteen NFL teams were in the Midwest states where the league began: Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland and Green Bay.

Green Bay survived by expanding their catchment area to take in all of Wisconsin and becoming Wisconsin's team rather than just Green Bay's team.  They achieved that by initiatives such as moving two home matches a year (at a time when the season was only 12 rounds so they only had six home matches total) to Milwaukee.

That is clearly not something any of the traditional RL clubs in England could ever do; hemmed in as they are by other clubs in close proximity they're all stuck with very small catchment areas.

The Hull clubs have the whole of East Yorkshire to themselves but I don't think it would work because if they did try to market themselves as East Yorkshires clubs, the majority of people from Withernsea, Bridlington, Hornsea, Driffield etc would say "No you're not you're Hulls teams."

[GeordieSaint]

8 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

One of the problems we have at the moment is not that St Helens would beat Workington easily, but that they are likely to beat most of the other teams in Super League easily also.

There’s a world of difference between putting 30-40pts on Wakefield/Salford to 80-100pts on Workington. That’s  no disrespect to latter.

I am genuinely shocked by you on this thread. You have some influence in this game due to what you do. Write something sensible and addresses the core issues the sport faces; governance, investment, self regulation, club power, community development, lack of infrastructure at all levels etc etc. Just my opinion, but structures are not THE solution to the game’s ills.

[Martyn Sadler]

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

There’s a world of difference between putting 30-40pts on Wakefield/Salford to 80-100pts on Workington. That’s  no disrespect to latter.

Not if the former happens in a supposedly elite 10-team league that is supposed to deliver an equal standard of competition.

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

I am genuinely shocked by you on this thread.

What a curious thing to write! You need to lie down.

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

You have some influence in this game due to what you do. Write something sensible and addresses the core issues the sport faces; governance, investment, self regulation, club power, community development, lack of infrastructure at all levels etc etc. Just my opinion, but structures are not THE solution to the game’s ills.

What a patronising character you clearly are!

Competition structures aren't the only solution to the game's problems, and I've never claimed that they are, but the constant changes over the years suggest that they are highly significant.

The other issues you mention are topics I've written about endlessly over many years, as in some of the more recent examples below.

Here's one on governance.

Here's one on investment.

Here's one on the community game.

Here's one on the power of the clubs.

 

 

[Martyn Sadler]

10 hours ago, Big Picture said:

This is not remotely true.  In 1960 only four out of thirteen NFL teams were in the Midwest states where the league began: Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland and Green Bay.

I didn't equate the M62 corridor with the Midwest.

[GeordieSaint]

6 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

What a patronising character you clearly are!

Competition structures aren't the only solution to the game's problems, and I've never claimed that they are, but the constant changes over the years suggest that they are highly significant.

The other issues you mention are topics I've written about endlessly over many years, as in some of the more recent examples below.

Here's one on governance.

Here's one on investment.

Here's one on the community game.

Here's one on the power of the clubs.

I’ll ignore that insult…

The constant changes to structures suggest the game’s hierarchy don’t have a clue how to solve the game’s issues; not that structures are highly significant. Otherwise it would have been solved years ago. 

Write more and more and more and more. You are in a real position of influence; you can have an effect, which people like I can’t less not spending money at the clubs. 

[Wakefield Ram]

Anyone know what the structure is for the clubs outside the SL and Championship? Or dont those clubs count any more?

BTW stop pretending it's "Super League 2", it's not, it's still the Championship, just smaller as our great game decides the best policy is to keep shrinking the game rather than address the real problems.

[The Future is League]

9 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I’ll ignore that insult…

The constant changes to structures suggest the game’s hierarchy don’t have a clue how to solve the game’s issues; not that structures are highly significant. Otherwise it would have been solved years ago. 

Write more and more and more and more. You are in a real position of influence; you can have an effect, which people like I can’t less not spending money at the clubs. 

To say that the hierarchy don't have a clue is an understatement. You are being very kind to them. How clueless will be defined by me and many others IFToulouse win the Championship grand final and there is no P & R

[Gerrumonside ref]

9 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Anyone know what the structure is for the clubs outside the SL and Championship? Or dont those clubs count any more?

BTW stop pretending it's "Super League 2", it's not, it's still the Championship, just smaller as our great game decides the best policy is to keep shrinking the game rather than address the real problems.

Remember Scott of Antarctic?

I think the plan for many of the lower division clubs as resources dwindle is a bit like the heroic sacrifice of Captain Oates on the frozen wastes.

”I’m just going outside and may be sometime…”

[Scubby]

18 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I’ll ignore that insult…

The constant changes to structures suggest the game’s hierarchy don’t have a clue how to solve the game’s issues; not that structures are highly significant. Otherwise it would have been solved years ago. 

Write more and more and more and more. You are in a real position of influence; you can have an effect, which people like I can’t less not spending money at the clubs. 

The problem with this game is that the same unambitious, self serving individuals are (a decade+ on) still sat around the table basically sharing out pizza that went from a 20" to 18" to 14" to 10". Now they are stuck with a 10" pizza and they think jiggling around the toppings will stop it going to an 8" pizza. They seem to have written off ever achieving a 24" pizza in the future.

The fact that in 2021 the likes of Rimmer, Carter, Thewliss (Hudds CEO), Hetherington, Lenegan, Wood, Beaumont, Pearson, Hudgell still have the reins - basically the guys that had the 20" pizza 5-10 years ago and wasted it - is the real problem facing the game.

If RL in this country had changed for the better then new names, sponsors, owners, partnerships, initiatives would be announced. These deals would be record deals because the game was growing etc.

I really don't know why new exciting ambitious clubs like Toulouse stick with it when the game is hell bent on trying to suppress and make it difficult for them to be part of the growth that is so badly needed. They are certainly not welcome to a slice of the ever decreasing pizza.

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

One thing I have problems understanding is why dominance by a few clubs is so detrimental to RL. Last Sunday 'The Observer' published it's annual PL predictions from supporters of the clubs and all bar one had the top four in various orders as the two Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Liverpool ( the exception was the Leicester supporter who put his own club there instead of Man U). This could have been the result for a number of seasons but doesn't lessen people's interest or have Sky screaming about an uncompetitive structure.

[The Blues Ox]

31 minutes ago, Scubby said:

The problem with this game is that the same unambitious, self serving individuals are (a decade+ on) still sat around the table basically sharing out pizza that went from a 20" to 18" to 14" to 10". Now they are stuck with a 10" pizza and they think jiggling around the toppings will stop it going to an 8" pizza. They seem to have written off ever achieving a 24" pizza in the future.

The fact that in 2021 the likes of Rimmer, Carter, Thewliss (Hudds CEO), Hetherington, Lenegan, Wood, Beaumont, Pearson, Hudgell still have the reins - basically the guys that had the 20" pizza 5-10 years ago and wasted it - is the real problem facing the game.

If RL in this country had changed for the better then new names, sponsors, owners, partnerships, initiatives would be announced. These deals would be record deals because the game was growing etc.

I really don't know why new exciting ambitious clubs like Toulouse stick with it when the game is hell bent on trying to suppress and make it difficult for them to be part of the growth that is so badly needed. They are certainly not welcome to a slice of the ever decreasing pizza.

Spot on.

[David Dockhouse Host]

33 minutes ago, Scubby said:

The problem with this game is that the same unambitious, self serving individuals are (a decade+ on) still sat around the table basically sharing out pizza that went from a 20" to 18" to 14" to 10". Now they are stuck with a 10" pizza and they think jiggling around the toppings will stop it going to an 8" pizza. They seem to have written off ever achieving a 24" pizza in the future.

The fact that in 2021 the likes of Rimmer, Carter, Thewliss (Hudds CEO), Hetherington, Lenegan, Wood, Beaumont, Pearson, Hudgell still have the reins - basically the guys that had the 20" pizza 5-10 years ago and wasted it - is the real problem facing the game.

If RL in this country had changed for the better then new names, sponsors, owners, partnerships, initiatives would be announced. These deals would be record deals because the game was growing etc.

I really don't know why new exciting ambitious clubs like Toulouse stick with it when the game is hell bent on trying to suppress and make it difficult for them to be part of the growth that is so badly needed. They are certainly not welcome to a slice of the ever decreasing pizza.

Same clubs want a bigger slice of a smaller pizza, not realising their larger slice of a smaller pizza is worth less than a small slice of a big pizza

[Damien]

36 minutes ago, Scubby said:

The problem with this game is that the same unambitious, self serving individuals are (a decade+ on) still sat around the table basically sharing out pizza that went from a 20" to 18" to 14" to 10". Now they are stuck with a 10" pizza and they think jiggling around the toppings will stop it going to an 8" pizza. They seem to have written off ever achieving a 24" pizza in the future.

The fact that in 2021 the likes of Rimmer, Carter, Thewliss (Hudds CEO), Hetherington, Lenegan, Wood, Beaumont, Pearson, Hudgell still have the reins - basically the guys that had the 20" pizza 5-10 years ago and wasted it - is the real problem facing the game.

If RL in this country had changed for the better then new names, sponsors, owners, partnerships, initiatives would be announced. These deals would be record deals because the game was growing etc.

I really don't know why new exciting ambitious clubs like Toulouse stick with it when the game is hell bent on trying to suppress and make it difficult for them to be part of the growth that is so badly needed. They are certainly not welcome to a slice of the ever decreasing pizza.

Great post.

[Derwent Parker]

46 minutes ago, Scubby said:

The problem with this game is that the same unambitious, self serving individuals are (a decade+ on) still sat around the table basically sharing out pizza that went from a 20" to 18" to 14" to 10". Now they are stuck with a 10" pizza and they think jiggling around the toppings will stop it going to an 8" pizza. They seem to have written off ever achieving a 24" pizza in the future.

The fact that in 2021 the likes of Rimmer, Carter, Thewliss (Hudds CEO), Hetherington, Lenegan, Wood, Beaumont, Pearson, Hudgell still have the reins - basically the guys that had the 20" pizza 5-10 years ago and wasted it - is the real problem facing the game.

If RL in this country had changed for the better then new names, sponsors, owners, partnerships, initiatives would be announced. These deals would be record deals because the game was growing etc.

I really don't know why new exciting ambitious clubs like Toulouse stick with it when the game is hell bent on trying to suppress and make it difficult for them to be part of the growth that is so badly needed. They are certainly not welcome to a slice of the ever decreasing pizza.

Doesn't matter how big Pizza is if you are only going to cut into 10 or 12 slices and let everybody else starve!

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

Doesn't matter how big Pizza is if you are only going to cut into 10 or 12 slices and let everybody else starve!

Maybe everybody else should focus on buying their own pizza and not just expect to steal a huge slice of someone else's.

[Scubby]

11 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

Doesn't matter how big Pizza is if you are only going to cut into 10 or 12 slices and let everybody else starve!

The 20" pizza from a few years ago saw League 1 clubs get a bigger slice than at any point in its history. Also, it allowed the SL clubs to get a share that was as close to the baseline salary cap than at any point in SL history. Rather than build on this they pssed about with the format yet again and dumbed down the pinnacle by making the middle 8s the focus of the end of the season.

Surprise surprise the top got neglected and the pizza started shrinking. Result - 5 years on we are talking about no central funding for L1 clubs at all and a SL club on £1m. There is a commercial ceiling on anything that isn't seen as the best of the best. Hence, why the Championship can't get a £ to broadcast it's fixtures (no matter how exciting the games are).

[Wakefield Ram]

38 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

One thing I have problems understanding is why dominance by a few clubs is so detrimental to RL. Last Sunday 'The Observer' published it's annual PL predictions from supporters of the clubs and all bar one had the top four in various orders as the two Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Liverpool ( the exception was the Leicester supporter who put his own club there instead of Man U). This could have been the result for a number of seasons but doesn't lessen people's interest or have Sky screaming about an uncompetitive structure.

Soccer is UKs number 1 sport and the PL is the best league in the world with many of the world's best players. England has a successful international team and even the lesser clubs can aspire to Europa League as well as Champions League. And on their day it is possible to draw with or beat the best teams as never happens in RL.

[redjonn]

16 hours ago, Scubby said:

Did they base their NFL growth plans around small towns and villages scattered either side of a highway? Some with populations of 10-20k.

Or did they expand to big population cities in a country of 300 million people.

but they didn't just one day decide to expand into other area's. They created a market of high demand that meant they could chose to move franchises/clubs to suit or able to attract fans from a wider geographical footprint than previous.

On this forum its like a magic formula that suddenly we should expand or create clubs in cities.   First we have to create that demand - that takes time.

We need a pragmatic solution that enables us to take those choices if wanted in the longer term.  Until then we may have to prune to create that chance - I haven't seen anything better proposed than some sort of pruning as a first step. as in prune with regards to money allocation to less clubs.

[Griff]

I blame getting paid in pizzas.

There was always enough to go around when we had a pie to share.

[Scubby]

Just now, Griff said:

I blame getting paid in pizzas.

There was always enough to go around when we had a pie to share.

You want your cake and eat it I can see!

[Griff]

4 minutes ago, Scubby said:

You want your cake and eat it I can see!

Cakes were good too.

Pizzas are definitely the problem.

[Scubby]

7 minutes ago, Griff said:

Cakes were good too.

Pizzas are definitely the problem.

I blame this guy 

[gazza77]

Tbf, didn't we reach peak pizza in 2020?

https://insidersport-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/insidersport.com/2020/08/19/super-league-delivers-papa-johns-partnership-for-post-game-boost/?amp=&amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=16286808412838&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Finsidersport.com%2F2020%2F08%2F19%2Fsuper-league-delivers-papa-johns-partnership-for-post-game-boost%2F