League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

[Scubby]

Edited for accuracy. Hope that's okay

5 hours ago, Scubby said:

Many of the people who post the most have been here for a decade or more. They were 20-something, 30-something or even already old miserable ######## when they arrived. They have seen it all, they are close to giving up because the sport doesn't want to help itself - but want to be pedantic on here a bit more!

 

[Derwent Parker]

14 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Edited for accuracy. Hope that's okay

 

That's better - keep it real

[David Dockhouse Host]

Sorry for the delay, the latest episode discussing the restructure is here with former ref Ian Smith.

 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Because most of those ideas were either external (IE the RFL), someone else's problem (IE League 1 clubs voting in Toulouse and Toronto who would be gone from their league in a year) or were sold as a benefit to them/something that didn't impact them as much as it could (IE 13 home games a season or only 3 players per club max being picked for England mid season or perhaps most poignantly Toronto can come up but have no Sky money).

RL, when left solely to the clubs, is the story of Turkey's not voting for Christmas. 

Every development, be that financial support for the lower leagues and wider game, new expansion or overseas teams, or creating a mid season international window, seems like drawing blood from a stone. Clubs either have to be bribed or outright bypassed to get some major developments in place.

Just to clarify the opposition to these moves is almost never from a position of strategic differences, as it is almost always from a position of preserving their own position.

They have pretty much all had to be voted in by clubs though. 

We can't just claim they always take the greedy option and then dismiss examples where they don't do that. 

[redjonn]

23 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I don't think the trickle of young British players to the NRL will become a flood.

And in any case, there is an analogy with Welsh rugby union in the 70s, who kept losing many of their best players to Rugby League, but they were able to give opportunities to other players who turned out to be great stars in a golden period for them.

And in any case, if young British Rugby League players can land big contracts in Oz, that should be a selling point for persuading youngsters to play the game.

thanks for the reply.

Yep fair comment, although its a poorer spectacle and hence not so good from a sport selling point  perspective, if stuck to watching the up and coming and often the just out the academy players.

[del capo]

17 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I'm remembering a lecture I'd heard by a guru and was struck by something he said, which seems to resonate here.

He said (and I'm paraphrasing) ''Once you realise that half your lungs are growing out in the fields and in the woods, its obvious you can't cut down all the trees and expect to get off scott-free''.

You can't exist, in isolation.

Even the (Super?) SuperLeague clubs exist in an inter-dependent ecosystem.

The lower echelons depends on them to provide the glamour and to create incentives and they (SL) depend on the lower levels to provide the players and fanbase (cash) they need.

The overarching modus-operandi in the RL ''family'' is dog eat dog, short term, amoral, existentialism.

The democratic, one club, one vote system is no protection, if the majority are willing to vote the minority into oblivion.

Give the Admin guys at the RFL all those years ago some credit. Check out Rugbyleague.com/governance/ about the rfl/ the RFL council. and the voting system.

Dog cannot simply eat dog. Even a pack of them can't get their own way which is maybe why the SL are moving back into the fold.

' Irrespective of the number of clubs in Super League the Championship and League 1 ( they all have to be UK based ) the votes of the Super League clubs ( on the one hand ) and  the votes of the Championship and League 1 clubs ( on the other hand ) carry equal weight. In addition any resolution must be passed by at least 4 Super League members and at least 4 Championship or League 1 members .

On top of that the Community game have 7 fairly influential votes to caste.

So whilst it definitely is not a democratic one member / one vote system the balances are in place to secure overall consensus.

Often though makes Westminster politics look like a piece of cake......

[fighting irish]

14 hours ago, Spidey said:

It used to be SL 3 Votes Championship 2 and League One 1

well thats even worse, isn't it

[Martyn Sadler]

14 hours ago, JM2010 said:

Do you think the NRL has reached its ceiling regarding TV deals?

I'm not sure how much more money the NRL can generate due to Australia's isolated position and the relatively small population. 

The UK and Europe has much more potential to generate big income for RL competitions but unfortunately it's a minority sport here

The changing broadcasting landscape means that the NRL might have reached a financial ceiling with conventional broadcasters.

It does have alternatives, but those generally would tend to rely on getting more money from its existing supporters, rather than widening its supporter base, which it still needs to do.

[fighting irish]

5 minutes ago, del capo said:

Give the Admin guys at the RFL all those years ago some credit. Check out Rugbyleague.com/governance/ about the rfl/ the RFL council. and the voting system.

Dog cannot simply eat dog. Even a pack of them can't get their own way which is maybe why the SL are moving back into the fold.

' Irrespective of the number of clubs in Super League the Championship and League 1 ( they all have to be UK based ) the votes of the Super League clubs ( on the one hand ) and  the votes of the Championship and League 1 clubs ( on the other hand ) carry equal weight. In addition any resolution must be passed by at least 4 Super League members and at least 4 Championship or League 1 members .

On top of that the Community game have 7 fairly influential votes to caste.

So whilst it definitely is not a democratic one member / one vote system the balances are in place to secure overall consensus.

Often though makes Westminster politics look like a piece of cake......

You seem very well informed.

I assume you must have been involved in the administration of RFL or BARLA somewhere along the line.

I'd like to find out more about the  story of BARLA and how they got from where they were when I met Maurice Oldroyd and Tom Keaveney (a long time ago) to where they are now?

If you could (privately, if you like) give me a potted history, I'd really appreciate it?

Regarding your comments about the voting rights of the respective clubs, it occurs to me that the SL clubs, plus (enough, of) the championship clubs can outvote the rest, and the SL1, SL2 idea would give them a majority. That was the point I was making.

I've been on the dirty end of a Union decision, where ''the management'' created the majority by declaring they wanted to make just under half of us redundant, and the ''chosen 55%'' voted the ''unwanted 45%'' out of the door.

''All for one, and one for all!'' 

I'm not naive, I know the game faces some tough decisions but I'd like to see a well thought out strategy for the long term.

[Scubby]

8 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

The changing broadcasting landscape means that the NRL might have reached a financial ceiling with conventional broadcasters.

It does have alternatives, but those generally would tend to rely on getting more money from its existing supporters, rather than widening its supporter base, which it still needs to do.

They have locked up a TV deal until 2027 which is some nice security to have.

SL are on 24-month notice at significantly reduced rates from Sky. The answer is to get 36 restructure ideas from club plus anyone who wants to throw their thesis in. This without actually confirming a structure or promotion/relegation for a competition that is already 80% completed.

[Hela Wigmen]

Ah, well. Two tens was the way to go. We’ll now do the same thing over and over again, retaining shells of clubs through “loyalty” and “tradition” and get smaller and smaller. 

[The Rocket]

14 hours ago, JM2010 said:

Do you think the NRL has reached its ceiling regarding TV deals?

I'm not sure how much more money the NRL can generate due to Australia's isolated position and the relatively small population. 

The UK and Europe has much more potential to generate big income for RL competitions but unfortunately it's a minority sport here

 

5 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

The changing broadcasting landscape means that the NRL might have reached a financial ceiling with conventional broadcasters.

It does have alternatives, but those generally would tend to rely on getting more money from its existing supporters, rather than widening its supporter base, which it still needs to do.

It`s a good question and the answer is complicated, there is widespread agreement that both the two main codes over achieved in their 2017 broadcast deals, it`s part of the reason that the broadcasters were keen to claw some of that back when the pandemic gave them an excuse.

Sticking to League, probably the greatest challenge faced by the code in its` FTA on-going negotiations is that it has already bundled the streaming rights into the Foxtel package. Nine`s ratings have been down but there looks to have been a commensurate(if not more) rise in the Foxtel streaming service Kayo. I don`t think Nine help this situation by their bogan central broadcast team and a fear it seems to treat their League audience as if they have any intelligence at all. But that`s another story.

From what I`ve been hearing Nine want part of the streaming action for their sports subscriber challenged service Stan. It`s very unlikely that Foxtel will budge. But it would be worth gold to them if they could get it, I believe it`s averaging over 270 000 per match now on Kayo, and rising.

So obviously the next best way to increase or at least maintain the value of the FTA deal is expansion, and that`s why V`landy`s is pushing it so hard. Brisbane Broncos are the Leagues one truly big market team, that`s why generally no matter what their form they are on FTA every week. The business case would suggest that their is enough room for at least one more team in Brisbane to capture those fans who aren`t enamoured with the Broncos.

V`landy`s said recently that FTA is all about eyeballs and Foxtel would probably pay a motza for all the League rights, but with only ~30% of the population having Foxtel that could cut a lot of casual viewers out of the market, probably a very unwise move.

So I think presently the best chance that the NRL has of increasing their FTA deals is through an on-going program of expansion.

 

 

 

 

[Angelic Cynic]

18 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Ah, well. Two tens was the way to go. We’ll now do the same thing over and over again, retaining shells of clubs through “loyalty” and “tradition” and get smaller and smaller. 

How do you propose to prevent the ' shells of clubs ' from getting smaller and smaller when they are prevented from a slice of the broadcast deal monies,prevented from having reserve sides,and prevented Ted from having academies?

The clubs at the bottom of the 2 leagues of ten may very well haemmorage supporters,money,and stadium depreciation which will lead to them becoming a shell of a club.

Are clubs from your 2 leagues of 10 going to be included via application,on-field success,or because, in the past,they managed to acquire a stadium with sufficient shiny seats?

The sport needs an independent commission,not just an immediate,based on today,decision.

How will the clubs in your 2 leagues of 10 advance if Sky withdraw funding altogether?

[Hela Wigmen]

3 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

How do you propose to prevent the ' shells of clubs ' from getting smaller and smaller when they are prevented from a slice of the broadcast deal monies,prevented from having reserve sides,and prevented Ted from having academies?

The clubs at the bottom of the 2 leagues of ten may very well haemmorage supporters,money,and stadium depreciation which will lead to them becoming a shell of a club.

Are clubs from your 2 leagues of 10 going to be included via application,on-field success,or because, in the past,they managed to acquire a stadium with sufficient shiny seats?

The sport needs an independent commission,not just an immediate,based on today,decision.

How will the clubs in your 2 leagues of 10 advance if Sky withdraw funding altogether?

You move clubs that are clubs in name only, plenty are just a squad of twenty players and nothing more, no ground, no fans, no academy, no reserves, no pathways, no community work, to a level more befitting of their level and not just continue pumping money into them through a misguided sense of loyalty and tradition. 

[Dave T]

59 minutes ago, Scubby said:

They have locked up a TV deal until 2027 which is some nice security to have.

SL are on 24-month notice at significantly reduced rates from Sky. The answer is to get 36 restructure ideas from club plus anyone who wants to throw their thesis in. This without actually confirming a structure or promotion/relegation for a competition that is already 80% completed.

What do you need to know about this season?

[JM2010]

14 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

 

It`s a good question and the answer is complicated, there is widespread agreement that both the two main codes over achieved in their 2017 broadcast deals, it`s part of the reason that the broadcasters were keen to claw some of that back when the pandemic gave them an excuse.

Sticking to League, probably the greatest challenge faced by the code in its` FTA on-going negotiations is that it has already bundled the streaming rights into the Foxtel package. Nine`s ratings have been down but there looks to have been a commensurate(if not more) rise in the Foxtel streaming service Kayo. I don`t think Nine help this situation by their bogan central broadcast team and a fear it seems to treat their League audience as if they have any intelligence at all. But that`s another story.

From what I`ve been hearing Nine want part of the streaming action for their sports subscriber challenged service Stan. It`s very unlikely that Foxtel will budge. But it would be worth gold to them if they could get it, I believe it`s averaging over 270 000 per match now on Kayo, and rising.

So obviously the next best way to increase or at least maintain the value of the FTA deal is expansion, and that`s why V`landy`s is pushing it so hard. Brisbane Broncos are the Leagues one truly big market team, that`s why generally no matter what their form they are on FTA every week. The business case would suggest that their is enough room for at least one more team in Brisbane to capture those fans who aren`t enamoured with the Broncos.

V`landy`s said recently that FTA is all about eyeballs and Foxtel would probably pay a motza for all the League rights, but with only ~30% of the population having Foxtel that could cut a lot of casual viewers out of the market, probably a very unwise move.

So I think presently the best chance that the NRL has of increasing their FTA deals is through an on-going program of expansion.

 

 

 

 

They definitely need to open up new markets. Perth and NZ 2 would help with that I believe. 

The market overall is still a lot smaller than UK/Europe so still probably has a ceiling domestically. Would pushing the NRL into overseas markets have any impact regarding TV deals, sponsorship etc?

[Scubby]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What do you need to know about this season?

What the sides at the top of the Championship are playing for. How many promotion places are there? Will the bottom club in SL actually be relegated or not? That sort of thing.

[JM2010]

5 minutes ago, Scubby said:

What the sides at the top of the Championship are playing for. How many promotion places are there? Will the bottom club in SL actually be relegated or not? That sort of thing.

I don't think anything has changed so still 1 up 1 down this season.

Are they still doing the 2 x 10 thing in 2023? I'm not sure what they said about it

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Scubby said:

What the sides at the top of the Championship are playing for. How many promotion places are there? Will the bottom club in SL actually be relegated or not? That sort of thing.

We knew the competition rules at the start. 1 up 1 down.

Of course that could always change, a bit like the top division of RU did in Feb where they changed the rules.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, JM2010 said:

I don't think anything has changed so still 1 up 1 down this season.

Are they still doing the 2 x 10 thing in 2023? I'm not sure what they said about it

There has been no official announcement either way to my knowledge. They will probably wait until October as they did with Toronto.

[Scubby]

Just now, Dave T said:

We knew the competition rules at the start. 1 up 1 down.

Of course that could always change, a bit like the top division of RU did in Feb where they changed the rules.

So you don't know what I want to know then. I'm not even 100% sure the competition rules ever officially stated that before this season. Only that Leigh would be invited to join Super League.

[Griff]

6 minutes ago, Scubby said:

So you don't know what I want to know then. I'm not even 100% sure the competition rules ever officially stated that before this season. Only that Leigh would be invited to join Super League.

Ach - the final league tables have never been anything but a basis for negotiation in rugby league.

Lock Lane could be in $uperleague next year.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Scubby said:

So you don't know what I want to know then. I'm not even 100% sure the competition rules ever officially stated that before this season. Only that Leigh would be invited to join Super League.

We know the comp rules - if that changes it will be announced. As is literally always the case.

[audois]

30/07/21

RFL Chief Executive, Ralph Rimmer, says:

“We are all – Super League Europe, clubs and the RFL – focused on the future. All of us involved in these discussions today want the very best for their clubs, players, fans and the whole game. 

[sweaty craiq]

32 minutes ago, audois said:

30/07/21

RFL Chief Executive, Ralph Rimmer, says:

“We are all – Super League Europe, clubs and the RFL – focused on the future. All of us involved in these discussions today want the very best for their clubs, players, fans and the whole game. 

What a meaningless statement by the highest paid clerk in the world. If we are having 2 x 10 in 2023 clubs must know now so that they can budget according to ambition, ie Leigh would stay FT with P&R and build for SL 2023, which the recruitment has been so far but if 2023 will be the top 8 in the Championship plus the bottom 2 in SL then you dont stay FT and spend as little as you need to.

Has anyone seen anything about 2023 season?