The Rocket Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Damien said: I hated the 8 team play off but that certainly isn't a fault of a 14 team league. I`m not a fan of the 8 team play off either, especially when the gap between the top few teams and the bottom of the eight is so glaring. However the current format of the play-offs down here ( assuming you have the same ) of separating the 8 into a top and bottom 4 makes the best of a bad lot. All the odds are stacked against a bottom four team progressing, and of course having an eight keeps the interest in the competition longer and can generate extra valuable income for those teams that do squeak into the finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 10 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said: I just don't see it that way. I've never watched a meaningless game of rugby, a player doesn't take the field not willing to give all, regardless of where they are in the league. Glad to read somebody else say this, far too many RL fans want less RL to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted August 14, 2021 Author Share Posted August 14, 2021 32 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: So not enough games to make enough money to pay the bills ? You said that, not me. There’s plenty of options beyond loop games or padding the season out with poorly prepared clubs to prevent loop fixtures. 1 hour ago, Angelic Cynic said: It is the wheels of economy,now,as you seize the zeitgeist. In decades gone by Swinton were ' good business' by being more successful than St Helens and Wigan,on the field. There was a period of time when Wigan sold Central Park and weren't in the best of health to evolve. Knowsley Road was suffering decrepitude. Some club owners have been unlucky,some have been negligent. That is not the fault of future,or current,coaches,players,staff and supporters. The clubs with money,or,with a purpose,have,since 1895,peaked and troughed. In soccer,a former Bank Of England club is now,for the 3rd season,in League 1.One of the oldest league clubs is in non-league soccer.It does go round. The governing body need to give all clubs 'a purpose'.It is no good looking at a few nice flower heads if all the roots are withering away. Does Football put Bishop Auckland into the higher levels of the sport because they attracted thousands in the 50’s? What about Richmond RU, are they playing top flight rugby based on history and sentiment? The roots of the game is the amateur game, that’s where players are born and bred, on fields at Thatto Heath, Siddal, Leigh Miners, Wigan St Pats etc, not at Hunslet, Swinton or Doncaster. That’s where money should be sent, not some of the clubs in the lower leagues. Yeah but what about example x, y or z? You mean the rare instances that players make it having had to go backwards and down the leagues before coming back up? Rarities and with proper minimum standards, there’s Academies and Reserve grade to give these players a proper shot, instead of the cliff edge they find themselves at, at 18/19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, fighting irish said: I'm keen to continue discussing (and thinking about) Martin's idea, the relative merits (and problems) of such a system. I'd hinted (a long time ago) at the idea of the Super League clubs visiting league one and championship clubs as novel, highlights in an otherwise dour league programme but Martin has given it a great deal more detailed thought and may have come up with a workable (and attractive) system. Some of the comments here have been scathing, which (in the age of Facebook, Twitter etc.) is not surprising but, as Martin pointed out, I think they were mostly spontaneous emotional reactions delivered without much consideration for the actual content of his proposal. Is there anyone, out there who'd care to comment on the merit of his idea? Are there any supporters for it (other than me)? I like the idea that a visit from a Senior club would brighten up the whole season for the lower clubs (and may generate bumper home crowds) and that it would also give the Senior club coaches the opportunity to rest players and try out younger lads to measure their progress. His plan also has the virtue of a ''whole game view''. The games that really matter, which decide end of season play off positions etc. would be just as important as ever (and fodder for SKY) and with healthier (rested) players would be more evenly matched, very keenly contested and provide great entertainment for fans. Given his lifelong experience in the game and his wide knowledge of sports in general, I'm unwilling to just write off his carefully considered opinion as the ravings of a crackpot. The Super 8s saw bigger teams like Warrington and Leeds visit smaller clubs and it had no impact at all. For a Super 8s fixture between Featherstone and Warrington if I recall it drew 1300 less than they got for their game with Toulouse (no away fans) a couple of weeks ago. For it to have an impact you have to make the biggest clubs the best they can possibly be, in the best facilities, with the best players and biggest crowds. That takes every penny, resource, motivation and focus we can possibly conjure up at the moment. Sky want exactly the same. There are very few real stars in SL that lower club fans can actually recognise these days. SL fans travel in smaller numbers than ever before. Martyn's idea would take the £300m the ECB was ploughing into the Hundred and then you are trying to make it work across 30 stakeholders in small towns across the M62 and Cumbria. Absolute pie in the sky stuff and completely the wrong conversation. The game here is not to use your prize assets to help Swinton get a gate of 1000 instead of 300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 6 minutes ago, Dave T said: Glad to read somebody else say this, far too many RL fans want less RL to watch. I want to watch less of Warrington under Steve Price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, Scubby said: I want to watch less of Warrington under Steve Price. At last, we agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 21 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said: Is the idea that Sky play games from SL1 and 2? Therefore being able to show 20 different teams not 10? It would be interesting to know exactly what Sky's criticism is. If they don't want to keep showing the same old clubs, then it'd be crazy to cut $uperleague down to ten clubs. But, if the criticism is that the games are too predictable with too many blow-out scores, then cutting to ten makes some sense, albeit that I thnk there'll still be blow-out scores and it won't be much of a solution. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 33 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said: Is the idea that Sky play games from SL1 and 2? Therefore being able to show 20 different teams not 10? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighting irish Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 18 minutes ago, Scubby said: The Super 8s saw bigger teams like Warrington and Leeds visit smaller clubs and it had no impact at all. For a Super 8s fixture between Featherstone and Warrington if I recall it drew 1300 less than they got for their game with Toulouse (no away fans) a couple of weeks ago. For it to have an impact you have to make the biggest clubs the best they can possibly be, in the best facilities, with the best players and biggest crowds. That takes every penny, resource, motivation and focus we can possibly conjure up at the moment. Sky want exactly the same. There are very few real stars in SL that lower club fans can actually recognise these days. SL fans travel in smaller numbers than ever before. Martyn's idea would take the £300m the ECB was ploughing into the Hundred and then you are trying to make it work across 30 stakeholders in small towns across the M62 and Cumbria. Absolute pie in the sky stuff and completely the wrong conversation. The game here is not to use your prize assets to help Swinton get a gate of 1000 instead of 300. I'm not going to argue with you, I'm grateful for your opinions, I'm hoping to generate more. Your mind seems to be made up. You've focused though, on only one aspect of the plan which you believe will not deliver the benefit claimed. Ok. Do you see any merit, any positives in Martin's plan? Are there any other opinions out there? Anyone think the plan is a good 'un? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: Yes. What's stopping them doing that now ? As pointed out earlier. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, Griff said: What's stopping them doing that now ? As pointed out earlier. I guess because they have a contract to show a certain number of games and they would rather show Super League games for the ratings. Super League has talked before about wanting to broaden their offering/packages to broadcasters. It may be the next deal includes SL2 as a separate package offered to other broadcasters, or there may be a Sky deal that includes a guaranteed number of SL2 games. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLANTISMAN Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 Any shake up can be very simple and I am certain would give the game a much needed lift * Pre season nines ( ALL super league clubs + 2 Championship + French Elite winners) 16 teams for a 7 day pre season tournament in Spain every year prior to the start of the SL season 2023 onwards. * Toulouse coming in will be a massive boost for SL and dont write London Broncos off * if the RLWC would have happened this year the Aussies would have come over in 2022 for a 3 match test series + club matches hopefully this will now happen in 2023 More to write but the wife is calling for me to take care of the kids:) Continue later Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 17 minutes ago, fighting irish said: I'm not going to argue with you, I'm grateful for your opinions, I'm hoping to generate more. Your mind seems to be made up. You've focused though, on only one aspect of the plan which you believe will not deliver the benefit claimed. Ok. Do you see any merit, any positives in Martin's plan? Are there any other opinions out there? Anyone think the plan is a good 'un? No I don't see anything in it. It is fantasy land. If RL was like football played in huge towns and cities all across the UK for decades then something like this could have basis for discussion. Sky have given the whole game £50m over 2 years for SL and said you are on notice. The Championship and League has secured £0 in TV money. Zilch, nothing, not a penny. The next offer could be £15m per season take it or leave it or even £10m. Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Scubby said: Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form? It might make sense if you think you could sell more rugby league newspapers in those places and others like Llanelli, Haringey, Coventry and Colwyn Bay… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Man of Kent said: It might make sense if you think you could sell more rugby league newspapers in those places and others like Llanelli, Haringey, Coventry and Colwyn Bay… Yep newspapers and 2021 - sums it up really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dockhouse Host Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 44 minutes ago, Griff said: It would be interesting to know exactly what Sky's criticism is. If they don't want to keep showing the same old clubs, then it'd be crazy to cut $uperleague down to ten clubs. But, if the criticism is that the games are too predictable with too many blow-out scores, then cutting to ten makes some sense, albeit that I thnk there'll still be blow-out scores and it won't be much of a solution. There's not too many blow out scores, I suspect they are not asking for ten, we are proposing it as we want to spread the money between fewer teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighting irish Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 35 minutes ago, Scubby said: No I don't see anything in it. It is fantasy land. If RL was like football played in huge towns and cities all across the UK for decades then something like this could have basis for discussion. Sky have given the whole game £50m over 2 years for SL and said you are on notice. The Championship and League has secured £0 in TV money. Zilch, nothing, not a penny. The next offer could be £15m per season take it or leave it or even £10m. Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form? Well I can't force you to think about it. If you believe it's so unlikely to be adopted, it doesn't warrant the time to think about it, then fair enough. Martin himself said that he didn't expect it to be taken up by the RFL, which doesn't mean he didn't believe in it himself. I take your point about the championship not being able to generate tv money, but all the ''attractive'' games that SKY relish would still take place with Martins plan, going on between teams of players who are better rested with less injuries (perhaps) and backed up with younger players, better prepared by being included in the (mismatched) games with lesser clubs. This might lead to higher quality games and an improvement in the spectacle provided by the top clubs, that SKY want. The system also provides more opportunities for rapidly developing clubs to climb the ladder faster. Sky may not want to televise games featuring Batley, Swinton....et al but they might be ideal fodder for the Our League format, which may generate additional revenues. Martins plan is alive with novelty, and opportunity for really ambitious clubs and loads for fans to get interested in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 17 minutes ago, fighting irish said: Well I can't force you to think about it. If you believe it's so unlikely to be adopted, it doesn't warrant the time to think about it, then fair enough. Martin himself said that he didn't expect it to be taken up by the RFL, which doesn't mean he didn't believe in it himself. I take your point about the championship not being able to generate tv money, but all the ''attractive'' games that SKY relish would still take place with Martins plan, going on between teams of players who are better rested with less injuries (perhaps) and backed up with younger players, better prepared by being included in the (mismatched) games with lesser clubs. This might lead to higher quality games and an improvement in the spectacle provided by the top clubs, that SKY want. The system also provides more opportunities for rapidly developing clubs to climb the ladder faster. Sky may not want to televise games featuring Batley, Swinton....et al but they might be ideal fodder for the Our League format, which may generate additional revenues. Martins plan is alive with novelty, and opportunity for really ambitious clubs and loads for fans to get interested in. I just don't agree. The game should be pretty ruthless at the moment. If the sport thinks there is potential in Newcastle, Coventry, Wales, Bradford and London then it should give them time and resources to be fast tracked to the elite competition within 3-5 years. It shouldn't create a convoluted system to try and get them fighting through the brambles because it will be fun and inclusive. If you want to look at how expansion and wealth is created then look more towards the AFL model than the League Express opinion columns. The equivalent AFL model in RL would be saying Coventry, Newcastle, London, Toulouse (or whoever) will be coming into the competition (and staying in) in 3 years time. Here is £5m each from central funding to build your infrastructure and you will have salary cap exemptions/weightings for the next 10 years (plus marketing help) to assist you to be competitive and recruit the best players you can. The AFL would have paid Toulouse and Toronto to be part of the competition - not kneecapped them to appease some corner shop traditionalists. That is why the AFL just signed a $2.5b TV deal even in the middle of Covid and the game in the UK has 20 months of the Sky egg timer left. The game here would think such a move preposterous and that is why we are skint and declining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 3 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said: There's not too many blow out scores, I suspect they are not asking for ten, we are proposing it as we want to spread the money between fewer teams I didn't suggest that Sky were asking for ten. Rather that $uperleague saw that as a solution. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 2 hours ago, Man of Kent said: I guess because they have a contract to show a certain number of games and they would rather show Super League games for the ratings. Super League has talked before about wanting to broaden their offering/packages to broadcasters. It may be the next deal includes SL2 as a separate package offered to other broadcasters, or there may be a Sky deal that includes a guaranteed number of SL2 games. Who knows? You're certainly presenting both sides of the argument with equal enthusiasm. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelic Cynic Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 2 hours ago, Scubby said: No I don't see anything in it. It is fantasy land. If RL was like football played in huge towns and cities all across the UK for decades then something like this could have basis for discussion. Sky have given the whole game £50m over 2 years for SL and said you are on notice. The Championship and League has secured £0 in TV money. Zilch, nothing, not a penny. The next offer could be £15m per season take it or leave it or even £10m. Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form? No one has ever seen a direct quote from any person,in authority,at Sky Television. If they are,' unhappy with the product ' - then that product is the performance of clubs that have been receiving the most funding:The Super League clubs. Sky television are quite content to pay astronomical amounts of money to a sport played all over the world.I really don't think their viewers in Asia and elsewhere are the slightest bit concerned or interested,that the wonderful Arsenal,West Ham,Tottenham,or a bus stop in Hounslow,Brentford,all play in less than salubrious parts of the capital city of this country. It is the sport that is important - not where it is played or the names associated with it. Why don't the elite club owners/governing body/ies inform the plebs what the god of money for the sport actually want before we are left to some very vivid imaginations? I have no doubt the rich will get richer and the not so rich will be ignored and left to rot. No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilderspoolmemories Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 Regarding the idea of SL 1 and 2, with both consisting of 10 teams. Can we honestly say as a sport we can afford to simply discard and forget about clubs who have history,fans,employees,etc simply because they aren't rated amongst the 20 top teams in the UK on the day the decision is made? A very sad state of affairs indeed should that ever become the case. 2009 Warrington 25 Hudderfield 16 2010 Warrington 30 Leeds 6 2011 League Leaders Shield Winners 2012 Warrington 35 Leeds 18 Challenge cups and league leaders shields everywhere! We need more silver polish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, Wilderspoolmemories said: Regarding the idea of SL 1 and 2, with both consisting of 10 teams. Can we honestly say as a sport we can afford to simply discard and forget about clubs who have history,fans,employees,etc simply because they aren't rated amongst the 20 top teams in the UK on the day the decision is made? A very sad state of affairs indeed should that ever become the case. Exactly, technically Barrow are in 25th position at the moment, flying high and are getting crowds comparable with Salford and Leigh atm never mind Batley, Sheffield and Dewsbury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 2 hours ago, Wilderspoolmemories said: Regarding the idea of SL 1 and 2, with both consisting of 10 teams. Can we honestly say as a sport we can afford to simply discard and forget about clubs who have history,fans,employees,etc simply because they aren't rated amongst the 20 top teams in the UK on the day the decision is made? A very sad state of affairs indeed should that ever become the case. 2 hours ago, Wilderspoolmemories said: Regarding the idea of SL 1 and 2, with both consisting of 10 teams. Can we honestly say as a sport we can afford to simply discard and forget about clubs who have history,fans,employees,etc simply because they aren't rated amongst the 20 top teams in the UK on the day the decision is made? A very sad state of affairs indeed should that ever become the case. Who is saying "discard and forget about clubs"? As far as I can see every club will still be part of the structure and will have the ability to work their way upwards. It's just that we can't continue to shower cash right down to the bottom of the league when our income's been cut by a third. Or give part time championship clubs half a million a year for that matter. Well run clubs will be able to survive such a restructuring and in fact those with a decent fanbases will find themselves quickly rising to the top of their tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 5 hours ago, Scubby said: No I don't see anything in it. It is fantasy land. If RL was like football played in huge towns and cities all across the UK for decades then something like this could have basis for discussion. Sky have given the whole game £50m over 2 years for SL and said you are on notice. The Championship and League has secured £0 in TV money. Zilch, nothing, not a penny. The next offer could be £15m per season take it or leave it or even £10m. Does anyone really believe the conversation to get that £25m per season to £75m per season in the next 5-10 years involves Batley, Swinton, Whitehaven, Keighley, Rochdale, Dewsbury etc. in any way shape or form? But if we were to look at the wider picture, we'd see that we factored in the whole game in increasing the tv deal for over 20 years to a record £40m per annum. I suppose it all depends on whether you believe that the 12 SL clubs can thrive as standalones or these lower teams in the pyramid contribute to the overall health of the game in the country which then strengthens SL. I certainly think the game is stronger with these clubs, so they absolutely are part of the discussions on strategy and structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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