League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, M j M said:

And stupid and lazy and selfish and ignorant. In my opinion of course.

Rugby League fans casually wishing for the death of Rugby League clubs and the betrayal and loss to the sport of diehard Rugby League fans sums up the attitude of some posters who think this is all some sort of simple zero sum game.

I honestly don't get the mentality that fewer clubs existing is a good thing for rugby league in the long run. It's an absolute nonsense.

[Derwent Parker]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I honestly don't get the mentality that fewer clubs existing is a good thing for rugby league in the long run. It's an absolute nonsense.

Fewer clubs means more cash for Super Greed

[fighting irish]

15 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

Fewer clubs means more cash for Super Greed

Also less fans at Wembley, and at the Magic Weekend and the Summer Bash and ultimately, at the Grand Final.

[Colin James]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

Have we reached the end of SL as we know it?

Will we be having a dartsesque split with a new, cashed up governing body embracing change with applications invited to join it - muted to be a TV funded two tens with £2m per club in tier1 and £1.5m in tier 2, containing on the road fixtures in the States and Canada plus Eastern Europe, 9's events and 'Magic' type weekends??

Leaving what is currently SL on 'our league' app or between DIY shows on Dave?

I assume from that post you have read Beaumont's piece in the paper (or are the man himself). I found his sneering attitude to Dave bizarre. I dare say a RL Raw type show would go down very well on Dave. It would reach an audience we don't currently reach being hidden away on subscription Sky Sports services. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Colin James said:

I assume from that post you have read Beaumont's piece in the paper (or are the man himself). I found his sneering attitude to Dave bizarre. I dare say a RL Raw type show would go down very well on Dave. It would reach an audience we don't currently reach being hidden away on subscription Sky Sports services. 

I also didn't really get what Beaumont's idea actually was. He said he would have it like darts. What does that mean? 

I understood two x 10's but what would actually be different that would be revolutionary. It was a terrible article. 

[sweaty craiq]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I also didn't really get what Beaumont's idea actually was. He said he would have it like darts. What does that mean? 

I understood two x 10's but what would actually be different that would be revolutionary. It was a terrible article. 

I read it as he refers to the split in darts in 1993 when the players were discontented by the game's big decline in television coverage and the BDO's (governing darts body) inability to reverse that decline, culminating in all the top players breaking away from the BDO to form their own organisation, the WDC.

Would a breakaway be supported by a tv deal for a min of £35m pa which is what he is proposing with the split in money? Would a TV company be that frustrated with the lack of vision currently in the sport that they would back a new vision? 

Personally £35m pa is a low figure if the sport is wanted and they believe it would be a true partner that would work hard for mutual benefit. IMO he must have been tipped off to go public with the proposal and the veiled threat within it, ie Darts path.

What he is 100% right with is that doing nothing now will result in a very poor bargaining position in 2022/3

[Toby Chopra]

3 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

Have we reached the end of SL as we know it?

Will we be having a dartsesque split with a new, cashed up governing body embracing change with applications invited to join it - muted to be a TV funded two tens with £2m per club in tier1 and £1.5m in tier 2, containing on the road fixtures in the States and Canada plus Eastern Europe, 9's events and 'Magic' type weekends??

Leaving what is currently SL on 'our league' app or between DIY shows on Dave?

None of that is going to happen. In fact things are going the other way. Superleague and the RFL are coming back together, all that's left to be decided is the voting rights, and the transitional structures. 

There's no white knight waiting to sweep in and start something new, instead it's back to the future. 

[Padge]

6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I honestly don't get the mentality that fewer clubs existing is a good thing for rugby league in the long run. It's an absolute nonsense.

Hang on, I think this is about clubs finding their level and not about killing off clubs. In the modern era Hunslet are never going to overtake Leeds, Hunslet's biggest ambition should be to survive and then to be the best at their level and not try and progress beyond what they are truly capable of.

Some clubs (and supporters) need a a serious reality check.

[gingerjon]

18 minutes ago, Padge said:

Hang on, I think this is about clubs finding their level and not about killing off clubs. In the modern era Hunslet are never going to overtake Leeds, Hunslet's biggest ambition should be to survive and then to be the best at their level and not try and progress beyond what they are truly capable of.

Some clubs (and supporters) need a a serious reality check.

I was responding to someone saying Brantley ceasing to exist was no loss at all and not would it be should the same happen to Hunslet.

That’s not finding a level.

[Padge]

27 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I was responding to someone saying Brantley ceasing to exist was no loss at all and not would it be should the same happen to Hunslet.

That’s not finding a level.

Brantley was no loss at all

 

[gingerjon]

9 minutes ago, Padge said:

Brantley was no loss at all

 

*stares in bizarre autocorrect*

[Padge]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

*stares in bizarre autocorrect*

It aprons a loft.

[Tommygilf]

48 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I was responding to someone saying Brantley ceasing to exist was no loss at all and not would it be should the same happen to Hunslet.

That’s not finding a level.

Bramley do exist, as Bramley Buffalos and to a certain extent as Stanningley.

Has the pro club's demise resulted in a collapse in either the professional or amateur game? Really?

I think we're reaching a very serious point in the Games history where a significant number of heartland clubs that exist as little more than glorified amateur clubs are going to be asked what they really are doing. Bearing in mind we have a distinct separation between semi pro and amateur clubs, there is logically going to be a similar discussion between pro and semi-pro, let alone whether a club is worthy of the latter.

The reality is that the mergers advocated by some in the 90s have already happened in some areas 'de facto'. Where they haven't and in the absence of a Super League presence (Newcastle, Cumbria, London, Midlands, some parts of West Yorks) its going to be difficult to argue why a club that averages less than 500 people through the gate in a place where the game is evidently strong should keep its place amongst the elite 36.

This is partly a problem of RL having a clear distinction between amateur and non amateur games. "Finding your level" is difficult in such a circumstance.

[Barley Mow]

18 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Bramley do exist, as Bramley Buffalos and to a certain extent as Stanningley.

Has the pro club's demise resulted in a collapse in either the professional or amateur game? Really?

I think we're reaching a very serious point in the Games history where a significant number of heartland clubs that exist as little more than glorified amateur clubs are going to be asked what they really are doing. Bearing in mind we have a distinct separation between semi pro and amateur clubs, there is logically going to be a similar discussion between pro and semi-pro, let alone whether a club is worthy of the latter.

The reality is that the mergers advocated by some in the 90s have already happened in some areas 'de facto'. Where they haven't and in the absence of a Super League presence (Newcastle, Cumbria, London, Midlands, some parts of West Yorks) its going to be difficult to argue why a club that averages less than 500 people through the gate in a place where the game is evidently strong should keep its place amongst the elite 36.

This is partly a problem of RL having a clear distinction between amateur and non amateur games. "Finding your level" is difficult in such a circumstance.

As much as I love community/recreational rugby (I do occasionally watch the Buffalos) I just don't see Bramley Buffalos as a continuation of the club in the same way as, for example, the reformed Bradford, Hunslet, Sheffield or York. I think that is primarily due to (as you say) the clear distinction that our sport makes between (semi-)professionals and amateurs.

Of course Bramley folding hasn't resulted in the collapse of the sport (even if you just look at West Leeds - Stanningley are a fantastic community club). But, as I noted in a previous post, each semi-pro club that folds means (to a greater of lesser degree) the loss of a number of fans to the game. That has to be seen as a real negative - even if just due to the loss of the money they spend on the game. The loss of a number of semi-pro clubs due to any restructuring would multiply that impact.

I disagree that even the smaller of our semi-pro clubs are little more than glorified amateur clubs. Other than perhaps Oldham when playing at Whitebank, attending Championship and League 1 matches at the grounds those clubs use has a completely different feel to attending a recreational rugby match at a field with a club house. The experience of a League 1 match is much closer to a Super League match than a NCL match in my opinion.

I have never been an advocate of licencing/franchising, but having seen a number of posts you have made on the subject, I'm now less sure of my position on that. I think the fact that we have the distinction between semi-pro and amateur does mean that we need to consider why there isn't a similar distinction between full time and semi-professional.

 That said, I would do whatever can be done to ensure those clubs which are semi-pro can continue to operate as such and that applications could be made to swap between amateur, semi-pro and full time competitions if such a distinction were to be made.

[LeeF]

On 29/08/2021 at 14:12, Dave T said:

I also didn't really get what Beaumont's idea actually was. He said he would have it like darts. What does that mean? 

I understood two x 10's but what would actually be different that would be revolutionary. It was a terrible article. 

First to score exactly 180 points wins the league?

[LeeF]

On 29/08/2021 at 14:58, Toby Chopra said:

None of that is going to happen. In fact things are going the other way. Superleague and the RFL are coming back together, all that's left to be decided is the voting rights, and the transitional structures. 

There's no white knight waiting to sweep in and start something new, instead it's back to the future. 

£35m pa TV funding on a £26m pa TV deal just about sums up DB’s “plan”

[DI Keith Fowler]

24 minutes ago, LeeF said:

£35m pa TV funding on a £26m pa TV deal just about sums up DB’s “plan”

It's not a plan is it? He's described the destination and not the journey.

To become a millionaire my plan is to simply become rich. 

[Scubby]

23 hours ago, Padge said:

Hang on, I think this is about clubs finding their level and not about killing off clubs. In the modern era Hunslet are never going to overtake Leeds, Hunslet's biggest ambition should be to survive and then to be the best at their level and not try and progress beyond what they are truly capable of.

Some clubs (and supporters) need a a serious reality check.

I don't think you have fully read and understood Martyn's proposal to save the game!

[The Daddy]

Why are club owners coming up with league structure proposals and why is a club owner (ken davy) still the competition chairman? The clubs have their fingers in all the pies and are not going to vote for anything good that doesn't serve their selfish interests even if it's for the good of the game 

[Scubby]

2 hours ago, LeeF said:

First to score exactly 180 points wins the league?

Featherstone experimented finishing games with a double during lockdown.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

As much as I love community/recreational rugby (I do occasionally watch the Buffalos) I just don't see Bramley Buffalos as a continuation of the club in the same way as, for example, the reformed Bradford, Hunslet, Sheffield or York. I think that is primarily due to (as you say) the clear distinction that our sport makes between (semi-)professionals and amateurs.

Of course Bramley folding hasn't resulted in the collapse of the sport (even if you just look at West Leeds - Stanningley are a fantastic community club). But, as I noted in a previous post, each semi-pro club that folds means (to a greater of lesser degree) the loss of a number of fans to the game. That has to be seen as a real negative - even if just due to the loss of the money they spend on the game. The loss of a number of semi-pro clubs due to any restructuring would multiply that impact.

I disagree that even the smaller of our semi-pro clubs are little more than glorified amateur clubs. Other than perhaps Oldham when playing at Whitebank, attending Championship and League 1 matches at the grounds those clubs use has a completely different feel to attending a recreational rugby match at a field with a club house. The experience of a League 1 match is much closer to a Super League match than a NCL match in my opinion.

I have never been an advocate of licencing/franchising, but having seen a number of posts you have made on the subject, I'm now less sure of my position on that. I think the fact that we have the distinction between semi-pro and amateur does mean that we need to consider why there isn't a similar distinction between full time and semi-professional.

 That said, I would do whatever can be done to ensure those clubs which are semi-pro can continue to operate as such and that applications could be made to swap between amateur, semi-pro and full time competitions if such a distinction were to be made.

I do get what you are saying, and I think my point refers to your latter paragraph mostly.

For all that the American sports model has been derided by many RL fans, its clear we are one of the leading British sports in adopting it as a model. Semi-Professional meant "professional" for near enough 100 years in RL - and you either were or you weren't. We've had licensing for decades, but only for a few years did we ever make a two tier system within that. Unlike even RU we have never had a pyramid from the top to bottom of the sport. This has impacted clubs abilities to "find their level" as they do in say football or RU, where formerly top division sides now have been 

As a system it has pros and cons of course. For example, it means that clearly professional sides who have collapsed and then reformed, like Bradford or Hunslet, or new clubs like Toronto or Coventry, can start as professional sides in the licensed elite rather than have to come through from level 7. 

That said, I think its important to recognise that one of its flaws is to make it seem that if the "(semi)professional" side does not continue in a small area as a side at that level then the sport is therefore dead there or something along those lines. Its profesional or oblivion.

With all due respect, I genuinely do not believe losing Bramley (as they were) or Hunslet (as they are) from the "professional ranks" would have a significant impact on the strength of RL in Leeds. And if we didn't have that distinction between the professional and amateur game then they would both have found their levels far more organically and we wouldn't be talking about "losing" Bramley or Hunslet at all. Just them operating at a lower level.

[Barley Mow]

6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I do get what you are saying, and I think my point refers to your latter paragraph mostly.

For all that the American sports model has been derided by many RL fans, its clear we are one of the leading British sports in adopting it as a model. Semi-Professional meant "professional" for near enough 100 years in RL - and you either were or you weren't. We've had licensing for decades, but only for a few years did we ever make a two tier system within that. Unlike even RU we have never had a pyramid from the top to bottom of the sport. This has impacted clubs abilities to "find their level" as they do in say football or RU, where formerly top division sides now have been 

As a system it has pros and cons of course. For example, it means that clearly professional sides who have collapsed and then reformed, like Bradford or Hunslet, or new clubs like Toronto or Coventry, can start as professional sides in the licensed elite rather than have to come through from level 7. 

That said, I think its important to recognise that one of its flaws is to make it seem that if the "(semi)professional" side does not continue in a small area as a side at that level then the sport is therefore dead there or something along those lines. Its profesional or oblivion.

With all due respect, I genuinely do not believe losing Bramley (as they were) or Hunslet (as they are) from the "professional ranks" would have a significant impact on the strength of RL in Leeds. And if we didn't have that distinction between the professional and amateur game then they would both have found their levels far more organically and we wouldn't be talking about "losing" Bramley or Hunslet at all. Just them operating at a lower level.

I don't disagree with much of what you say in your first few paragraphs, and I certainly don't think the sport is dead in west Leeds because Bramley folded. The community game there is still pretty strong and it isn't exactly inconvenient to go to Headingley if that's what you want.

Other semi-pro clubs who've folded and not reformed have tended to be in areas where the game isn't as strong (outside the heartlands) so that may be a different story.

I do however think that losing semi-pro clubs from an area can have a significant impact on the strength of the game (especially if it is the loss of a number of such clubs as is currently feared). Beyond the emotional/historical value of the clubs to their supporters (which I give a lot of weight to in itself) the semi-pro level is valuable in giving a stage and (part time) wage to those players who don't make it part time in a way that neither reserve grade rugby nor recreational sport do.

However great or small the impact of any individual club folding may be, we really don't want to lose any players, fans or volunteers from the game and so having as much spread/variety in types of club as possible gives as many different outlets as possible for people's passion for RL.

As I have posted, my own experience is that I haven't been able to find an outlet for that passion in either the local full time club (Leeds) or in community clubs in west Leeds in the same way I did at Bramley. The sport has had less of the benefits of my time and money for the last 20 years as a result.

[fighting irish]

6 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

I don't disagree with much of what you say in your first few paragraphs, and I certainly don't think the sport is dead in west Leeds because Bramley folded. The community game there is still pretty strong and it isn't exactly inconvenient to go to Headingley if that's what you want.

Other semi-pro clubs who've folded and not reformed have tended to be in areas where the game isn't as strong (outside the heartlands) so that may be a different story.

I do however think that losing semi-pro clubs from an area can have a significant impact on the strength of the game (especially if it is the loss of a number of such clubs as is currently feared). Beyond the emotional/historical value of the clubs to their supporters (which I give a lot of weight to in itself) the semi-pro level is valuable in giving a stage and (part time) wage to those players who don't make it part time in a way that neither reserve grade rugby nor recreational sport do.

However great or small the impact of any individual club folding may be, we really don't want to lose any players, fans or volunteers from the game and so having as much spread/variety in types of club as possible gives as many different outlets as possible for people's passion for RL.

As I have posted, my own experience is that I haven't been able to find an outlet for that passion in either the local full time club (Leeds) or in community clubs in west Leeds in the same way I did at Bramley. The sport has had less of the benefits of my time and money for the last 20 years as a result.

Of course mate. 

[Wakefield Ram]

The idea that Rugby League can be re-packaged like darts is a nonsense. Darts isn't a sport it's a TV show, a drinking event night out which is televised. Has there been a big increase in local darts leagues?

We need the game to be more exciting to watch. I watched 1994 Leeds v Wigan and it was fast , exciting, end to end stuff. Our game has mostly turned into a predictable, arm wrestle based on completion rates and avoiding errors.

Re-structure as a solution is just re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

[Tommygilf]

6 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

I don't disagree with much of what you say in your first few paragraphs, and I certainly don't think the sport is dead in west Leeds because Bramley folded. The community game there is still pretty strong and it isn't exactly inconvenient to go to Headingley if that's what you want.

Other semi-pro clubs who've folded and not reformed have tended to be in areas where the game isn't as strong (outside the heartlands) so that may be a different story.

I do however think that losing semi-pro clubs from an area can have a significant impact on the strength of the game (especially if it is the loss of a number of such clubs as is currently feared). Beyond the emotional/historical value of the clubs to their supporters (which I give a lot of weight to in itself) the semi-pro level is valuable in giving a stage and (part time) wage to those players who don't make it part time in a way that neither reserve grade rugby nor recreational sport do.

However great or small the impact of any individual club folding may be, we really don't want to lose any players, fans or volunteers from the game and so having as much spread/variety in types of club as possible gives as many different outlets as possible for people's passion for RL.

As I have posted, my own experience is that I haven't been able to find an outlet for that passion in either the local full time club (Leeds) or in community clubs in west Leeds in the same way I did at Bramley. The sport has had less of the benefits of my time and money for the last 20 years as a result.

I do think the game needs points of entry for as many people as possible. As other posters have pointed out its quite difficult to engage with and buy RL unless you live in spitting distance from the M62. And even then there's little variation for people with different tastes.

I do think there is a discernible difference between RL clubs in the immediate environs of other RL clubs and outpost clubs as you say. Losing a pro club in Bramley doesn't mean RL in West Leeds collapses, but losing Coventry or Newcastle would have a significant impact on the progress of the game in those areas. As I put previously, a lot of this is because some of the mergers proposed historically have happened de facto. 

Your inability to find something to replace Bramley is sad on a personal level but we must also recognise that its ultimately because there weren't enough people like you that Bramley ceased as a pro outfit. Sentiment vs finances and all that do clearly have an impact. This is one of the flaws of our cut and dry system between pro and amateur as Bramley in say football or RU would have just gone down the leagues to an appropriate level for their finances and could have come back up if they were able. We in RL insist that the lowest that level can be as a pro club is just 2 divisions away from Super League. 

You can see why the attitude for licensing was/is so prevalent, its hardwired into the sport.