League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

[Scubby]

3 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

As you said RL can support all clubs or it can choose not to. The end game here is 20 pro/semi pro and everyone else amateur. The bottom half of the championship and L1 will see reductions of up to 80% without any transition at all. You mention 50k and that's what many L1 clubs feared they would be getting. Don't think anyone expected it to be reduced to less than 20k

The Queensland Cup and NSW Cup are strong in Australia but they are cut adrift from the NRL. However, the NRL having a A$2b TV deal allows that money to flow and help those competitions prosper. We cannot sustain P&R in this country with part time clubs and full time clubs. Look at what has happened to Leigh with a lot of their players on 1 year contracts. No one is planning properly for growth.

[OriginalMrC]

10 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I think you may need to give some context.Was it not just a response to a proposal where all League 1 clubs were to be culled,anyway?

You may remember the response,many years ago,when Mr Hall reacted to the statement from Lenagan where only Super League clubs received money from the broadcast deal.Then Mr Hall appeared to take a vow of silence and later became RFL President/vice President.

Maybe the situation has already been resolved by the owners of the Super League clubs and the sport has been a victim of divide and rule.

No, was because they are aparently perennial lower league clubs. Technically correct but glass houses and all that.... 

[OriginalMrC]

At last someone has said it..... 

 

[Angelic Cynic]

1 hour ago, OriginalMrC said:

At last someone has said it..... 

 

Good that a club is connecting with their supporters.

Perhaps the governing body should do likewise - with those still interested.

[Ray Cashmere]

There are two different issues here following the new TV deal:

i) Can we support 36 clubs within a structure

ii) Can we support the existing structure 

 

For me, the answer to i) is yes, absolutely. However the answer to ii) is evidently not.

 

We have to make a decision as a sport about the role of the 36 clubs within our game. Some are fantastic, semi-professional community clubs which can continue to thrive in a competitive League 1 and Championship, investing most of their energy in supporting grassroots RL in their local communities rather than chasing a SL pipe-dream.

Others are either established SL clubs or Championship clubs with the ambition, resources, potential and commercial value to benefit Super League as full-time clubs without the cliff edge of relegation threatening their progress. 

 

This is not to say it is my ideal scenario but, unfortunately, it is reality. Failure to accept it will damage clubs of all sizes imo.

[fighting irish]

2 hours ago, Ray Cashmere said:

There are two different issues here following the new TV deal:

i) Can we support 36 clubs within a structure

ii) Can we support the existing structure 

 

For me, the answer to i) is yes, absolutely. However the answer to ii) is evidently not.

 

We have to make a decision as a sport about the role of the 36 clubs within our game. Some are fantastic, semi-professional community clubs which can continue to thrive in a competitive League 1 and Championship, investing most of their energy in supporting grassroots RL in their local communities rather than chasing a SL pipe-dream.

Others are either established SL clubs or Championship clubs with the ambition, resources, potential and commercial value to benefit Super League as full-time clubs without the cliff edge of relegation threatening their progress. 

 

This is not to say it is my ideal scenario but, unfortunately, it is reality. Failure to accept it will damage clubs of all sizes imo.

When are they announcing the decision?

 

[Gooleboy]

26 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

When are they announcing the decision?

 

31st February.

[nadera78]

17 hours ago, cookey said:

So how do you propose to pay them?

There is less money available,yet you want all clubs to continue receiving money. Fine,so some clubs will receive less than otherwise.

There is less money available in RU,so clubs at tiers 3/4 no longer receive central funds,if they did,clubsat tiers 1 and 2 would be receiving less. Tier 2 clubs have already had their central funds cut in half. Cricket has cut funds to second tier counties,do you agree or would you prefer payments to continue,hence first class counties receiving less?

The Govt has spent hundreds of billions of pounds on the virus,most are in favour of the numerous grants,loans,furloughs etc,surprisingly,no one wants to pay increased taxes to repay the govt borrings - currently approx £100 bill/year. Everyone wants the Govt to cover care for the elderly,guesswhat,no one wants to pay for it. Etc,etc.

Unfortunately RL cant afford 36 'professional' clubs,particularly when a number of them offer the wider game absolutely nothing,beyond existing. It's simple, how thinly do you want to cut the cake. Unfortunately there are no simple answers,other than,yes I know,someone else should pay for it.

I was discussing with another poster why the 20 clubs are so keen on this change to 2x10s, I didn't say anything about the pros/cons of funding lower league teams.

For what it's worth, and I'm not sure your aggressive tone deserves any response but here goes, I've said elsewhere on here that our meagre resources should be focussed on funding an elite SL and the community game.

[Ackroman]

You can't just oil the big cogs for many, many reasons.

Elite is elite by comparison to those who are not elite, used to be elite, aspire to be elite and maybe never will be elite.

Too many SL clubs are far from Elite. That is fact.

IMHO after listening to many, many podcasts in the last few weeks, I think there is a growing opinion that only the vision of the 90's (FTF) will work but to try and implement that when clubs in Non-Elite Super League can veto changes is nigh on impossible.

 

[Damien]

46 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

You can't just oil the big cogs for many, many reasons.

Elite is elite by comparison to those who are not elite, used to be elite, aspire to be elite and maybe never will be elite.

Too many SL clubs are far from Elite. That is fact.

IMHO after listening to many, many podcasts in the last few weeks, I think there is a growing opinion that only the vision of the 90's (FFTF) will work but to try and implement that when clubs in Non-Elite Super League can veto changes is nigh on impossible.

 

FFTF?

[Ackroman]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

FFTF?

edited for effin extra F's

[Damien]

29 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

edited for effin extra F's

Sorry I'm still lost what FTF means!

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

Sorry I'm still lost what FTF means!

Framing the Future

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Framing the Future

Of course, cheers!

Framing the future does show how long the sport has been wrestling with these kind of issues with little progress really.

[Ackroman]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Sorry I'm still lost what FTF means!

Framing the future. 

[Derwent Parker]

23 hours ago, Ackroman said:

You can't just oil the big cogs for many, many reasons.

Elite is elite by comparison to those who are not elite, used to be elite, aspire to be elite and maybe never will be elite.

Too many SL clubs are far from Elite. That is fact.

IMHO after listening to many, many podcasts in the last few weeks, I think there is a growing opinion that only the vision of the 90's (FTF) will work but to try and implement that when clubs in Non-Elite Super League can veto changes is nigh on impossible.

 

The teams calling themselves elite teams are only elite because of SKY money.

For example in an hypothetical situation - give all teams only 20k - but give West Wales 2 million every season [only used WW as example because currently bottom of tree]. In a few year who will be the elite??

[Derwent Parker]

On 07/09/2021 at 09:13, steve oates said:

Well I wasn't too far off, but I suppose the original point still is that Championship clubs have in the past survived without the SKY money so if they don't get much of it in Superleague two they will still manage.

So we may be going 2x12 with the lions share of the money to Superleague One. The other possibility is something Lenegan has said many times i.e. promotion & relegation every two years?

That's the stupidest thing I've heard - so a team finished top possibly unbeaten one year and doesn't get promoted but the following year someone else can get promoted???

[Damien]

15 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

That's the stupidest thing I've heard - so a team finished top possibly unbeaten one year and doesn't get promoted but the following year someone else can get promoted???

Yes that's why I don't agree with it and why I think its unworkable in practice.

[Scubby]

On 08/09/2021 at 16:36, Damien said:

Of course, cheers!

Framing the future does show how long the sport has been wrestling with these kind of issues with little progress really.

Mostly with Wakefield and Castleford TBF  

[Scubby]

On 08/09/2021 at 17:21, Ackroman said:

Framing the future. 

Or #### That For (a game of soldiers) as Wakefield often referred to it.

[wiganermike]

4 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

That's the stupidest thing I've heard - so a team finished top possibly unbeaten one year and doesn't get promoted but the following year someone else can get promoted???

IIRC what Ian Lenegan suggested was that promoted teams were given a year's grace from relegation but that promotion would happen each year. So if the promoted team finish bottom in year 1 then the team one place above them would go down. He suggested it during the restructure discussions that ended with the 3 8s system being brought in. It was a suggested way of overcoming the issue that promoted clubs face when recruiting only after the season is done with no players left on the market.

[GUBRATS]

11 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

IIRC what Ian Lenegan suggested was that promoted teams were given a year's grace from relegation but that promotion would happen each year. So if the promoted team finish bottom in year 1 then the team one place above them would go down. He suggested it during the restructure discussions that ended with the 3 8s system being brought in. It was a suggested way of overcoming the issue that promoted clubs face when recruiting only after the season is done with no players left on the market.

That'll work

[Tommygilf]

5 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

The teams calling themselves elite teams are only elite because of SKY money.

For example in an hypothetical situation - give all teams only 20k - but give West Wales 2 million every season [only used WW as example because currently bottom of tree]. In a few year who will be the elite??

To answer your question, Leeds, Saints, Wigan and Warrington... Leeds alone turn over 8 figure sums and only dropped to just below 9 million with Covid.

Your point is valid for Wakefield, Salford, Castleford and Leigh. As clubs they are pretty much interchangeable with various Championship clubs like Halifax, Widnes, Fev, York, Bradford etc., though there are outliers at the top and bottom. Cas, Salford and Bradford have all appeared in Grand Finals and Cup Finals (the latter having won a fair few too). York, Salford, Leigh and Widnes all play in modern stadia (though they do not own their ground).

[Dave T]

40 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

To answer your question, Leeds, Saints, Wigan and Warrington... Leeds alone turn over 8 figure sums and only dropped to just below 9 million with Covid.

Your point is valid for Wakefield, Salford, Castleford and Leigh. As clubs they are pretty much interchangeable with various Championship clubs like Halifax, Widnes, Fev, York, Bradford etc., though there are outliers at the top and bottom. Cas, Salford and Bradford have all appeared in Grand Finals and Cup Finals (the latter having won a fair few too). York, Salford, Leigh and Widnes all play in modern stadia (though they do not own their ground).

I think sometimes we are too harsh on SL clubs. Many clubs have had a chance at SL and fallen by the wayside over the last 25 years including some of those you name. 

If it was just so easy to take the central funding and crack on, then surely the likea of Bradford who once had some of the highest crowds in British Rugby would never have hit hard times. 

 

[Dave T]

Framing the future has been mentioned a couple of times on here, does anybody have a link to the doc? I seem to recall it knocking about a few years back. 

The articles I could see referred to things like modernising, playing in summer, improving facilities, stopping overspend on players. The biggie that we haven't addressed is the tight geographical area RL is big in. 

What other things were in there?