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League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)


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3 minutes ago, Damien said:

I agree on the income streams but it wasn't really the point. The point was that it is possible to make improvements if you want to.

Both Batley and Fev have done very well , with next to nothing to spend , should CAS/Wakey have done ' something ' similar ? , Probably yes , in fact I do believe it would be in their own interests to do exactly that , if either was to end up in Leigh's position of no income from their facility , I do believe they will end up outside SL 

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On 15/08/2021 at 19:05, Padge said:

for the last few years the 'elite' clubs have had little faith in the leadership at the top of the RFL and have reverted to we know best

But as things have turned out, quite clearly the elite clubs were wrong with the state the game is in both on and off the field.

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15 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Because it is fluffy nonsense which dumbs the elite game down to its lowest denominator.

You would pitch this proposal to Sky with a straight face and ask them to part with significantly more than the £25m pa (£15m down on previous deal)? A company that has shown little or no interest in paying for and showing Championship level games even when they held the rights to every regular league fixture. 

Is it possible to explain anything to you in a way that you will understand?

No one would expect Sky to broadcast Championship level fixtures and I am not proposing that they do.

Every week there will be lots of fixtures between the leading clubs to choose from, just as there was this weekend.

What my proposal does, however, is give other clubs the chance to become leading clubs too and it gives the supporters of all the clubs the incentive to take out subscriptions to whichever broadcaster has the TV rights.

It would also make it easier for the RFL to raise external finance to support the competition, which I have explained earlier in this thread.

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7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Both Batley and Fev have done very well , with next to nothing to spend , should CAS/Wakey have done ' something ' similar ? , Probably yes , in fact I do believe it would be in their own interests to do exactly that , if either was to end up in Leigh's position of no income from their facility , I do believe they will end up outside SL 

There is no denying that a lot of clubs thought that all paid for all seater stadia were the promised land with little thought of the consequences of not owning your own home. I know some clubs didn't have a choice but I think for many clubs they would be better off in a more basic ground on a smaller scale that they own than playing in a rented all seater ground.

Someone like Salford would have undoubtedly been better staying put. My own club certainly would have been if they hadn't have sold Central Park. I would be intrigued to see a financial comparison between Hull FC and Hull KR to see the difference. Hull FC on paper are the bigger club with bigger attendances but I'd love to see how that compares with Hull KR and them owning their own ground and all the income streams that entails.

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21 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Any franchise must have an academy and reserve team, and ground grading must come into the equation as well

So by that the RFL in deciding which club's can or cannot run an academy have decided who can have a franchise, you do talk a load of garbage.

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5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But as things have turned out, quite clearly the elite clubs were wrong with the state the game is in both on and off the field.

It wasn't a statement of who is right and who is wrong, its a statement of how the sport reacts and how it has always reacted.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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5 minutes ago, Damien said:

Someone like Salford would have undoubtedly been better staying put. 

Not really because the costs of just getting the Willows safe each year were getting to be beyond them.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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21 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

I was talking to a bloke heavily involved in next years American SL the other night - they will take all our best players until they can grow their own which wont take too long.

Average salary is over $250k with some elite targets that the NRL couldn't defend against. 6 clubs based in Major city's cashed up to hell and a tv deal to die for

It wouldn't be Eric Perez would it?

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1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Unfortunately I don't think the RFL, Super League and many of the clubs yet have the foresight to understand what I'm trying to achieve with this proposal.

I hope, however, that it doesn't take them too long to appreciate its merits.

Have you had any feedback from the RFL that suggests your plan is under consideration? Your last line suggests that they are thinking about it. I tried with a series of posts to draw others into a serious discussion about the pro's (and cons) of your scheme but sadly only Scubby responded. I'm not convinced that he spent much time thinking about it, but rather dismissed it from the outset. 

 

31 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Because it is fluffy nonsense which dumbs the elite game down to its lowest denominator.

You would pitch this proposal to Sky with a straight face and ask them to part with significantly more than the £25m pa (£15m down on previous deal)? A company that has shown little or no interest in paying for and showing Championship level games even when they held the rights to every regular league fixture. 

They (SKY) wouldn't be obliged to show championship or league 1 class games in Martin's plan.

They can focus on the strongest clubs only, for their televised schedules.

They may well appreciate the medium to long term benefits of a plan which encourages and enables clubs to grow through the system without the high risk, promotion or bust recklessness, the existing structure engenders.

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5 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Your question was predicated on the premise that Wakefield promised to / were told to upgrade their stadium as a prerequisite of remaining in SL.

The premise is invalid, the question is moot.

To answer your question anyway, the plans are going well, just waiting for the enabling development to progress and when funding is available, work will begin, just like all other SL stadium developments.

A new roof on the clubhouse and 3 new floodlights have already been done (£400k). The 4th new floodlight will be fitted at the end of the season as access is via the playing surface. 

The club have given up on the multitude of plans for a new purpose built stadium being built after decades of effort to make this happen. For the first time since the 70s, the focus is now on developing and refurbishing the current site in a number of stages. 

Hi WT, wasn't there a Trinity fan a while ago saying that has demographics have evolved in the fair city of Wakefield, that Belle Vue is situated in the most unsuitable place it could be for all manner of reasons?

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10 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Not really because the costs of just getting the Willows safe each year were getting to be beyond them.

As opposed to losing money on every home game and not even being able to afford the rent at the AJ Bell. That is even when getting nearly £1 million more a season in TV money than they got at the Willows

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22 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Is it possible to explain anything to you in a way that you will understand?

No one would expect Sky to broadcast Championship level fixtures and I am not proposing that they do.

Every week there will be lots of fixtures between the leading clubs to choose from, just as there was this weekend.

What my proposal does, however, is give other clubs the chance to become leading clubs too and it gives the supporters of all the clubs the incentive to take out subscriptions to whichever broadcaster has the TV rights.

It would also make it easier for the RFL to raise external finance to support the competition, which I have explained earlier in this thread.

How does it make it easier to raise external finance? Genuinely interested. 

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1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Is it possible to explain anything to you in a way that you will understand?

No one would expect Sky to broadcast Championship level fixtures and I am not proposing that they do.

Every week there will be lots of fixtures between the leading clubs to choose from, just as there was this weekend.

What my proposal does, however, is give other clubs the chance to become leading clubs too and it gives the supporters of all the clubs the incentive to take out subscriptions to whichever broadcaster has the TV rights.

It would also make it easier for the RFL to raise external finance to support the competition, which I have explained earlier in this thread.

You wrote a thesis, I read it. I thought it was fluffy utopian nonsense based around an artificial collaboration of 36 self serving clubs - the top ones who are currently paying some squad players under £15k a year, and the bottom ones tiny towns and villages along the M62 getting gates of 100-300 and paying pocket money to players to turn out. You singularly fail to mention where the commercial attractiveness would be from Year 1 before the game runs out of money. 

It if was brought in during the next 1-2 years it would result in the whole sport pretty much reverting to part-time.

It's called a review. 1 star

Note: I often like articles you write, but this is so far off it cannot be described in any other terms.

Edited by Scubby
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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi WT, wasn't there a Trinity fan a while ago saying that has demographics have evolved in the fair city of Wakefield, that Belle Vue is situated in the most unsuitable place it could be for all manner of reasons?

I wouldn’t say so, it’s probably one of the most deprived areas of Wakefield but that’s why the community elements of the planned upgrade are so important.  
No access problems, new link road and not as landlocked as people think.

 Up the Trin 

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

There is no denying that a lot of clubs thought that all paid for all seater stadia were the promised land with little thought of the consequences of not owning your own home. I know some clubs didn't have a choice but I think for many clubs they would be better off in a more basic ground on a smaller scale that they own than playing in a rented all seater ground.

Someone like Salford would have undoubtedly been better staying put. My own club certainly would have been if they hadn't have sold Central Park. I would be intrigued to see a financial comparison between Hull FC and Hull KR to see the difference. Hull FC on paper are the bigger club with bigger attendances but I'd love to see how that compares with Hull KR and them owning their own ground and all the income streams that entails.

At Leigh , we had no choice , the council gave us an ultimatum , sign to move to the LSV or the safety certificate at Hilton Park gets reduced to 1000 capacity 

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9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

At Leigh , we had no choice , the council gave us an ultimatum , sign to move to the LSV or the safety certificate at Hilton Park gets reduced to 1000 capacity 

To be fair 1,000 was being generous considering the state of Hilton Park*

 

*and yes I do know CP was a dump and I have posted that I thought it was many times on here.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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23 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

I was talking to a bloke heavily involved in next years American SL the other night - they will take all our best players until they can grow their own which wont take too long.

Average salary is over $250k with some elite targets that the NRL couldn't defend against. 6 clubs based in Major city's cashed up to hell and a tv deal to die for

What "American SL" are you talking about?  A quick search for that term only finds some gridiron concepts and the Superliga Americana de Rugby.

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14 minutes ago, Padge said:

To be fair 1,000 was being generous considering the state of Hilton Park*

 

*and yes I do know CP was a dump and I have posted that I thought it was many times on here.

It was nothing to do with the condition of Hilton Park , but the lack of space around it , essentially the Hilton Park area included 12 feet outside the perimeter wall , meaning no parking , no access for the emergency services , it was sign up or have nowhere to play outside League 1 

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1 hour ago, Scubby said:

You wrote a thesis, I read it. I thought it was fluffy utopian nonsense based around an artificial collaboration of 36 self serving clubs - the top ones who are currently paying some squad players under £15k a year, and the bottom ones tiny towns and villages along the M62 getting gates of 100-300 and paying pocket money to players to turn out. You singularly fail to mention where the commercial attractiveness would be from Year 1 before the game runs out of money. 

It if was brought in during the next 1-2 years it would result in the whole sport pretty much reverting to part-time.

It's called a review. 1 star

Note: I often like articles you write, but this is so far off it cannot be described in any other terms.

Often the problem with many grand ideas or suggestion is the practical or pragmatic getting from current to the all singing vision/idea without the whole edifice collapsing.

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

It was nothing to do with the condition of Hilton Park , but the lack of space around it , essentially the Hilton Park area included 12 feet outside the perimeter wall , meaning no parking , no access for the emergency services , it was sign up or have nowhere to play outside League 1 

I take it you never entered the actual stadium then.

Edited by Padge
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Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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5 hours ago, redjonn said:

Often the problem with many grand ideas or suggestion is the practical or pragmatic getting from current to the all singing vision/idea without the whole edifice collapsing.

Have you read the proposal?

If so, (I did ask previously) where are the practical stumbling blocks (that you see) to implementing this structure?

I'm eager to elicit some thoughtful argument about the plan, from anyone willing to contribute.

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4 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Have you read the proposal?

If so, (I did ask previously) where are the practical stumbling blocks (that you see) to implementing this structure?

I'm eager to elicit some thoughtful argument about the plan, from anyone willing to contribute.

I'm not sure why you keep posting this and want people to repeat what they said dozens of pages back. It has been discussed and plenty had their say about the plan and the stumbling blocks. The very small minority/handful of people that seem to think it's a good idea just don't want to listen to those reasons.

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Has there been any sort of noise around a parachute payment for Leigh (assuming it is them) if they have to go down? Regardless of what happens in SL - you would think it is the right thing to go to a club SL basically handicapped at short notice so they could fulfil the fixtures and obligations to Sky.

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10 minutes ago, Damien said:

I'm not sure why you keep posting this and want people to repeat what they said dozens of pages back. It has been discussed and plenty had their say about the plan and the stumbling blocks. The very small minority/handful of people that seem to think it's a good idea just don't want to listen to those reasons.

I haven't seen any real arguments in favour of it and so I was trying to elicit those (if they exist). 

Also, most of the negative comments were superficial, mainly ridiculing the ideas without any real depth (to justify) their rapid dismissal. They were more typical of mindless trolling.

Comments like ''has Martin lost his mind?'' ''It'll never work'', ''What makes him think SKY want to broadcast Batley, West Wales et al?'' are not indicative of serious consideration of his plan.

Indeed the last comment, (something similar to which cropped up quite a few times) indicates a basic misunderstanding of Martin's proposal.

So I'm just urging anyone who will make the effort, to really argue/debate, for or against the proposal with some serious rational argument, after reading and understanding how Martin claims it would work.

This process, would help to further illuminate the idea and permit a genuine appraisal of the plan. I'd much rather that than see posters distance themselves from the argument and merely hurling poorly thought out and unsubstantiated insults. 

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  • John Drake changed the title to League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

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