League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

[Scubby]

16 minutes ago, Damien said:

Who would this be?

This kind of attitude is thoroughly depressing. 

But common in RL.

[steve oates]

15 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

This is the problem without long term stability offered by licensing. We still don't know if Toulouse will be in SL next season I'm not sure why any TV network would be busting a gut to make a deal with a sport that might only last one year. If there was a guaranteed 3-5 years, surely this would be a much more attractive proposition and easier to sell?

Yes I agree with this that French broadcasters who have been "on and off" on paying for rights to televise French SL club(s) may continue to be so even if SL had two French clubs next year because TO would probably be favourites to be relegated, and do the broadcasters want one year deals? 

But do English clubs want to restructure Superleague entry to be based on 3-5 five year guarantees so the French are protected from relegation?? You can't argue too much about what Catalans seem to now be bringing to the game (let's not however forget Israel Folau) but established English SL member clubs  won't want to give way to "guests" if a French TV deal can't be found??

[OriginalMrC]

46 minutes ago, Damien said:

Who would this be?

This kind of attitude is thoroughly depressing. 

The name begins with K. They'd like to portray they are a progressive club but they are very much in the this is a northern sport for northern people. Have to be said not all northern clubs are the same, there are some that support growth of the sport 

 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

44 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Yes I agree with this that French broadcasters who have been "on and off" on paying for rights to televise French SL club(s) may continue to be so even if SL had two French clubs next year because TO would probably be favourites to be relegated, and do the broadcasters want one year deals? 

But do English clubs want to restructure Superleague entry to be based on 3-5 five year guarantees so the French are protected from relegation?? You can't argue too much about what Catalans seem to now be bringing to the game (let's not however forget Israel Folau) but established English SL member clubs  won't want to give way to "guests" if a French TV deal can't be found??

I think this is a very fair point. I love having the French clubs involved, but it's important to quantify what value they add to the competition. I'm not sure that the RFL/SL ever considered what the 'end game' was by having them (and Toronto) involved in the British league structure. Did they ever consider the various strategic long term implications for the game, or did they just think "yeah, why not" and admit them?

If the powers-that-be want P&R, then I don't think that fits with having the French clubs in there personally. They're unable to plan long-term, and the chronic instability means that they're forever operating on a lack of foundations. I just can't see why any broadcaster would be interested in investing money and resources in to a sports comp where the 2 French clubs could feasibly not be involved in 2 years' time.

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, steve oates said:

I do recall it being said by Mr. McManus that SKY were not averse to the game expanding geographically, and had no wish to interfere with this. However Mr. McManus outlined that SKY did require a certain number of the clubs, in any form of Superleague, to be English clubs to attract English SKY subscribers and viewers. English Chairmen therefore were pushing the French to find their own paying TV deal....

Two French clubs probably doubles the chance of the French capturing a TV deal, and if Superleague has to provide SKY with 10 English clubs then this may be why Superleague are going for 12 SL clubs this next 2022 season and possibly cutting to 10 in 2023 if the French cannot in that time, find that deal especially if there are two French clubs.

Catalans produced one of SL's greatest games yesterday, but the handicap for the French is the lack of a TV deal and maybe but maybe the French Derbies next season (IF TO win promotion) could attract a lot of English viewers or better still convince French TV to show RL, with an French SL game on in France every week.....

No, two French clubs more than doubles the chances of a decent French TV deal.  Perpnignan is a little town and the Dragons have a Catalan identity rather than a French identity so Toulouse or another similar city being included would vastly improve the prospects of a decent TV deal.

 

1 hour ago, steve oates said:

Yes I agree with this that French broadcasters who have been "on and off" on paying for rights to televise French SL club(s) may continue to be so even if SL had two French clubs next year because TO would probably be favourites to be relegated, and do the broadcasters want one year deals? 

But do English clubs want to restructure Superleague entry to be based on 3-5 five year guarantees so the French are protected from relegation?? You can't argue too much about what Catalans seem to now be bringing to the game (let's not however forget Israel Folau) but established English SL member clubs  won't want to give way to "guests" if a French TV deal can't be found??

That's a definite concern, because with Perpnignan is a little town and the Dragons have a Catalan identity rather than a French identity, SL isn't worth anything to a French broadcaster without Toulouse.

[steve oates]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

No, two French clubs more than doubles the chances of a decent French TV deal.  Perpnignan is a little town and the Dragons have a Catalan identity rather than a French identity so Toulouse or another similar city being included would vastly improve the prospects of a decent TV deal.

Sorry, are you trying to say Catalans aren't attractive to French TV but two RL playing "French" cities would be?

[steve oates]

3 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I think this is a very fair point. I love having the French clubs involved, but it's important to quantify what value they add to the competition. I'm not sure that the RFL/SL ever considered what the 'end game' was by having them  involved in the British league structure. Did they ever consider the various strategic long term implications for the game, or did they just think "yeah, why not" and admit them?

In 1996 Superleague Europe was formed. IIRC Paris St.Germain got a nod over the excellent Toulouse then they promptly collapsed, this led to French clubs being held at arms length, even though Toulouse had been a bit of a no brainer. They even beat Widnes in the cup to remind Superleague they should have their chance.

Then along comes expansionist Richard Lewis who looks to include France and promptly forgets Toulouse and brings in Les Catalans instead. Toulouse deserve that break after a quarter of a century. Key SL bosses however want to see a paying French TV deal and French player production line at both clubs.

Maybe someone like Audois can tell us where French TV stand?

[PhilCarrington]

9 hours ago, steve oates said:

I can't see how 20 clubs may get together and "jettison" 16 fellow clubs to secure a situation where if your not a "Superleague one" club at least you will be a "superleague 2" club and one good season away from the top league.

In seeing a loss of clubs coming John Davidson predicted some casualties, but not 16.

As it stands the bottom 16 include Widnes, Newcastle, Dewsbury, Barrow, Haven, Workington and Keighley - can't see them going, and these are clubs that havehad  no central funding in past years and carried on I do conceded there are a few clubs that probably only really do survive on the handouts, and may only ever survive this way......

When did these clubs miss out on central funding and why did they miss out?

[newbe]

Not sure if this has been asked. When do the R/L  announce the new structure. 

[Griff]

10 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

The name begins with K.

Katalans? Kastleford?

[nadera78]

20 hours ago, steve oates said:

I can't see how 20 clubs may get together and "jettison" 16 fellow clubs to secure a situation where if your not a "Superleague one" club at least you will be a "superleague 2" club and one good season away from the top league.

In seeing a loss of clubs coming John Davidson predicted some casualties, but not 16.

As it stands the bottom 16 include Widnes, Newcastle, Dewsbury, Barrow, Haven, Workington and Keighley - can't see them going, and these are clubs that havehad  no central funding in past years and carried on I do conceded there are a few clubs that probably only really do survive on the handouts, and may only ever survive this way......

Have they written a list of 16 clubs they're prepared to kill off? No, of course not. Do they know that by withdrawing almost all their funding some clubs will cease to operate overnight and others will wither even further than they already have to the point of being zombie clubs playing in a 3rd tier that barely operates? Yes, yes they do. Are the perfectly comfortable with that if it means they secure themselves? Absolutely.

[Angelic Cynic]

17 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

The name begins with K. They'd like to portray they are a progressive club but they are very much in the this is a northern sport for northern people. Have to be said not all northern clubs are the same, there are some that support growth of the sport 

 

I think you may need to give some context.Was it not just a response to a proposal where all League 1 clubs were to be culled,anyway?

You may remember the response,many years ago,when Mr Hall reacted to the statement from Lenagan where only Super League clubs received money from the broadcast deal.Then Mr Hall appeared to take a vow of silence and later became RFL President/vice President.

Maybe the situation has already been resolved by the owners of the Super League clubs and the sport has been a victim of divide and rule.

[steve oates]

10 hours ago, PhilCarrington said:

When did these clubs miss out on central funding and why did they miss out?

Hi Phil....   The 1996 deal saw SKY pay 87 Million for the whole game, all matches.

Then come 1999 and SKY paid only £46M and they didn't want the Championship. The championship did try to get their own deals but best they could do was a deal with "Premier Sports" which got them on TV but no money. This current deal negotiated by the RFL finally got the Championship a decent amount of money, but of course SL were livid, declared it was a big waste of money, and elbowed the RFL out of the way. 

This is why I think a lack of TV money won't lead to the established Championship clubs facing hardship. They may claim it would but they did very well for many years without TV money.

[Scubby]

10 hours ago, newbe said:

Not sure if this has been asked. When do the R/L  announce the new structure. 

Just after the Queen's Christmas Day speech.

[nadera78]

11 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Hi Phil....   The 1996 deal saw SKY pay 87 Million for the whole game, all matches.

Then come 1999 and SKY paid only £46M and they didn't want the Championship. The championship did try to get their own deals but best they could do was a deal with "Premier Sports" which got them on TV but no money. This current deal negotiated by the RFL finally got the Championship a decent amount of money, but of course SL were livid, declared it was a big waste of money, and elbowed the RFL out of the way. 

This is why I think a lack of TV money won't lead to the established Championship clubs facing hardship. They may claim it would but they did very well for many years without TV money.

This is incorrect. The Northern Ford Premiership clubs wanted out of the contract and negotiated a fee to walk away from future payments. They were confident they would find a broadcaster elsewhere, which of course never happened. A good few years passed before Sky offered them a deal for Thursday night games, but paid only for production costs and no rights fees. Then Premier Sports came along. The Championship broadcast rights have never been worth a penny, and the figures Nigel Wood made public five years ago where for the distributions to each league not how much Sky were paying for each one.

[steve oates]

4 hours ago, nadera78 said:

Have they written a list of 16 clubs they're prepared to kill off? No, of course not. Do they know that by withdrawing almost all their funding some clubs will cease to operate overnight and others will wither even further than they already have to the point of being zombie clubs playing in a 3rd tier that barely operates? Yes, yes they are. Are the perfectly comfortable with that if it means they secure themselves? Absolutely.

Well having discussed this last night over a few beers I got shot down again on this issue and there seems to be a credible view that 2X12 is now on the table with the rest going, and this may well be agreed. Putting my point that I could not see clubs being so ruthless I got told, absolutely they will. So that's me told twice

[steve oates]

3 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

This is incorrect. The Northern Ford Premiership clubs wanted out of the contract and negotiated a fee to walk away from future payments. They were confident they would find a broadcaster elsewhere, which of course never happened. A good few years passed before Sky offered them a deal for Thursday night games, but paid only for production costs and no rights fees. Then Premier Sports came along. The Championship broadcast rights have never been worth a penny, and the figures Nigel Wood made public five years ago where for the distributions to each league not how much Sky were paying for each one.

Well I wasn't too far off, but I suppose the original point still is that Championship clubs have in the past survived without the SKY money so if they don't get much of it in Superleague two they will still manage.

So we may be going 2x12 with the lions share of the money to Superleague One. The other possibility is something Lenegan has said many times i.e. promotion & relegation every two years?

[cookey]

5 hours ago, nadera78 said:

Have they written a list of 16 clubs they're prepared to kill off? No, of course not. Do they know that by withdrawing almost all their funding some clubs will cease to operate overnight and others will wither even further than they already have to the point of being zombie clubs playing in a 3rd tier that barely operates? Yes, yes they do. Are the perfectly comfortable with that if it means they secure themselves? Absolutely.

So how do you propose to pay them?

There is less money available,yet you want all clubs to continue receiving money. Fine,so some clubs will receive less than otherwise.

There is less money available in RU,so clubs at tiers 3/4 no longer receive central funds,if they did,clubsat tiers 1 and 2 would be receiving less. Tier 2 clubs have already had their central funds cut in half. Cricket has cut funds to second tier counties,do you agree or would you prefer payments to continue,hence first class counties receiving less?

The Govt has spent hundreds of billions of pounds on the virus,most are in favour of the numerous grants,loans,furloughs etc,surprisingly,no one wants to pay increased taxes to repay the govt borrings - currently approx £100 bill/year. Everyone wants the Govt to cover care for the elderly,guesswhat,no one wants to pay for it. Etc,etc.

Unfortunately RL cant afford 36 'professional' clubs,particularly when a number of them offer the wider game absolutely nothing,beyond existing. It's simple, how thinly do you want to cut the cake. Unfortunately there are no simple answers,other than,yes I know,someone else should pay for it.

[Ackroman]

Brian Noble made a valid point about how few sports have a credible second tier. The second tier can only work if it is funded appropriately so that when P&R happens a good like for like replacement takes place. Hence why the premier league teams look nothing like the ones that made up he original league and why the football championship is such a good comp.

[Damien]

4 hours ago, cookey said:

Unfortunately RL cant afford 36 'professional' clubs,particularly when a number of them offer the wider game absolutely nothing,beyond existing. It's simple, how thinly do you want to cut the cake. Unfortunately there are no simple answers,other than,yes I know,someone else should pay for it.

RL can certainly afford to support 36 clubs and has done for some years. Even with the latest TV deal it can still do so. If it doesn't do that it's the sports choice to put funds elsewhere but it's certainly not because they have to. Giving 12 teams in league 1 £50k is £600k and peanuts in the context of a £25 million a year TV deal.

[OriginalMrC]

24 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

Brian Noble made a valid point about how few sports have a credible second tier. The second tier can only work if it is funded appropriately so that when P&R happens a good like for like replacement takes place. Hence why the premier league teams look nothing like the ones that made up he original league and why the football championship is such a good comp.

I've said this for years. A stronger pyramid makes a stronger top tier. Better players coming through, stronger clubs, more fans, bigger sponsors etc. The idea that Super League will get stronger by cutting adrift the rest of the game is ludicrous.

[OriginalMrC]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

RL can certainly afford to support 36 clubs and has done for some years. Even with the latest TV deal it can still do so. If it doesn't do that it's the sports choice to put funds elsewhere but it's certainly not because they have to. Giving 12 teams in league 1 £50k is £600k and peanuts in the context of a £25 million a year TV deal.

As you said RL can support all clubs or it can choose not to. The end game here is 20 pro/semi pro and everyone else amateur. The bottom half of the championship and L1 will see reductions of up to 80% without any transition at all. You mention 50k and that's what many L1 clubs feared they would be getting. Don't think anyone expected it to be reduced to less than 20k

[Damien]

1 minute ago, OriginalMrC said:

As you said RL can support all clubs or it can choose not to. The end game here is 20 pro/semi pro and everyone else amateur. The bottom half of the championship and L1 will see reductions of up to 80% without any transition at all. You mention 50k and that's what many L1 clubs feared they would be getting. Don't think anyone expected it to be reduced to less than 20k

I mentioned 50k because I think that's reasonable in the context of the fall in the TV deal if cuts need to be made. 20k just takes the urine and if a SL club can't forego 30k then there is something seriously wrong.

[Ackroman]

12 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

I've said this for years. A stronger pyramid makes a stronger top tier. Better players coming through, stronger clubs, more fans, bigger sponsors etc. The idea that Super League will get stronger by cutting adrift the rest of the game is ludicrous.

I totally agree.

[JonM]

5 hours ago, Scubby said:

Just after the Queen's Christmas Day speech.

Don't be hasty. Plenty of time to sort it out in the week before the season starts.