Super League ready

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Leigh getting promotion this year (with exemption from relegation) could well have included some really exciting progressive signings for 2022+, longer term fan and commercial initiatives during the 2021 season which would have given fans hope to stick with it as the current crop are getting spanked each week. Relegation basically means thoughts turn to how interested is the owner in keeping going etc. 

Do me a favour Subbs, and give me your interpretation to the longish post a made an hour or so ago.

[Scubby]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do me a favour Subbs, and give me your interpretation to the longish post a made an hour or so ago.

I think your views on the integrity of P&R are clear but it doesn't hide the fact that the cupboard may be bare next year and players may leave and it is no given they will be top of the Championship next year. What you can't see being so close to a club is that this system basically cripples your club over time.

Less than 3000 turned up last night (for a marquee fixture against Leeds) largely because the home fans think they are going down. Honestly, what is the difference between 3,000 here and 3,000 for a meaningless end of year fixture with no relegation. 2,600 (excluding Leeds fans) is the same type of crowds Leigh were getting outside of SL when licensing was in. What is the actual benefit of being in the elite competition if you can't build? The game hurts itself with this insistence that we should mirror football. We are not football and we can't afford to pretend to be.

[GeordieSaint]

35 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

As at Wakefield and Castleford?

Both clubs would really struggle in their current guise if proper minimum standards were implemented; the former especially. 

And I genuinely agnostic of which English clubs should be in a minimum standards-based competition. 

[Scubby]

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

Both clubs would really struggle in their current guise if proper minimum standards were implemented; the former especially. 

And I genuinely agnostic of which English clubs should be in a minimum standards-based competition. 

The game is basically at such a low point at the moment it doesn't even want to have this conversation. Literally a couple of weeks ago people were saying a £10k fine could cripple Fev (who are pushing for SL). Last year we reduced what an elite SL player could be paid to under £15k pa - WTF?

A competition that had higher participant standards, salaries, TV income and crowds 5-10 years ago than it does now, is pretty devastating.

Yet we want to haggle over the crumbs as opposed to dealing with the real questions - fan experience, what makes a product valuable to Tv companies, sponsors and advertisers.

[ATLANTISMAN]

5 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Both clubs would really struggle in their current guise if proper minimum standards were implemented; the former especially. 

And I genuinely agnostic of which English clubs should be in a minimum standards-based competition. 

This is not a dig at Castleford and Wakefield fans so please take this the right way.

It seems to me that SKY will hardly cover any matches at these stadiums in future as they look awful on TV for sponsors and viewers its a complete turn off and is an embarrassment for the game.

 

Paul

 

 

[The Rocket]

5 minutes ago, Scubby said:

The game is basically at such a low point at the moment it doesn't even want to have this conversation. Literally a couple of weeks ago people were saying a £10k fine could cripple Fev (who are pushing for SL). Last year we reduced what an elite SL player could be paid to under £15pa - WTF?

A competition that had higher participant standards, salaries, TV income and crowds 5-10 years ago than it does now, is pretty devastating.

Yet we want to haggle over the crumbs as opposed to dealing with the real questions - fan experience, what makes a product valuable to Tv companies, sponsors and advertisers.

It seems to me that your argument with Stottle sums up the whole problem with the game in England, you arguing for a progressive way forward in a different world, him stuck in the past dragging the game not only downwards but backwards. I bet the clubs are full of blokes like that, just like the four blokes sitting at that table in the post by WMS.

[ATLANTISMAN]

Just now, ShropshireBull said:

And herein líes the problem.  Grounds are either not in a decent state or way too big.  

If we are being honest only Leeds Saints Wire, Catalan (who we cant watch) and KR look good on a regular weekly basis on tv. 

Yes Hull and Wigan might get a few good games but when half the teams in your comp look awful on telly, we have a problem. 

Its why I actually think Salford in a stadium half the size would be much better for them and the sport. It's why York would be a good addition because 5-6000 in a modern 8000 capacity looks 100 times better.

 

Totally agree we are between the devil and the deep blue sea on this one:(

I am of the opinion that some clubs simply will never grow and we have to accept that in reality we have 6 big clubs up north HULL FC/LEEDS/HULL KR/WARRINGTON/WIGAN/ST HELENS thats it you add CATALANS/TOULOUSE and then take your pick from the rest.

Sadly I dont see 12/14 teams with enough quality 2 more max.

SL 2 though (Championship) call it what you want would be a fantastic league no doubt about it.

 

 

 

Paul

 

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

18 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I think your views on the integrity of P&R are clear but it doesn't hide the fact that the cupboard may be bare next year and players may leave and it is no given they will be top of the Championship next year. What you can't see being so close to a club is that this system basically cripples your club over time.

Less than 3000 turned up last night (for a marquee fixture against Leeds) largely because the home fans think they are going down. Honestly, what is the difference between 3,000 here and 3,000 for a meaningless end of year fixture with no relegation. 2,600 (excluding Leeds fans) is the same type of crowds Leigh were getting outside of SL when licensing was in. What is the actual benefit of being in the elite competition if you can't build? The game hurts itself with this insistence that we should mirror football. We are not football and we can't afford to pretend to be.

I know the plight of Leigh, in the natural position of clubs Leigh sit somewhere around 10th to 15th it has always been that way, you have for some reason brought Leigh into this discussion when there has been no to referance to the club before.

Again the discussion is the views by yourself and others that French clubs should be ringfenced and excempt from relegation, I have given enough reasons why it would be totally abhorrent to subject all other clubs to relegation and excempt 2 clubs from it when playing in the same division for the same points to either win the gongs or win the security that playing in the SL brings by avoiding relegation.

I don't care whether Leigh would have to remain in the Championship perpetually as long as P&R remains in place to maintain the hope and ambition of achieving promotion, but I would be more than miffed if having acheived that status just like i would imagine any other supporter would be of a club that could be relegated by the actions off or finishing higher than a protected club.

I gave some examples of things were construed when relegation was a condition of the MPG, and how Saints leniency in the direction of London could have effected other teams, but you choose not to answer those.

[GeordieSaint]

37 minutes ago, Scubby said:

The game is basically at such a low point at the moment it doesn't even want to have this conversation.

A competition that had higher participant standards, salaries, TV income and crowds 5-10 years ago than it does now, is pretty devastating.

Yet we want to haggle over the crumbs as opposed to dealing with the real questions - fan experience, what makes a product valuable to Tv companies, sponsors and advertisers.

Leadership, leadership, leadership… 

… the game is crying out for some genuine leadership.

[Scubby]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

I know the plight of Leigh, in the natural position of clubs Leigh sit somewhere around 10th to 15th it has always been that way, you have for some reason brought Leigh into this discussion when there has been no to referance to the club before.

Again the discussion is the views by yourself and others that French clubs should be ringfenced and excempt from relegation, I have given enough reasons why it would be totally abhorrent to subject all other clubs to relegation and excempt 2 clubs from it when playing in the same division for the same points to either win the gongs or win the security that playing in the SL brings by avoiding relegation.

I don't care whether Leigh would have to remain in the Championship perpetually as long as P&R remains in place to maintain the hope and ambition of achieving promotion, but I would be more than miffed if having acheived that status just like i would imagine any other supporter would be of a club that could be relegated by the actions off or finishing higher than a protected club.

I gave some examples of things were construed when relegation was a condition of the MPG, and how Saints leniency in the direction of London could have effected other teams, but you choose not to answer those.

I used Leigh, I could have used Salford or Castleford or Halifax or Bradford or any club that has been relegated within the last 10-20 years. It financially cripples a club and in football you get 2 years and tens of millions of pounds in parachute payments. We did a parachute payment for 1 or 2 years and then binned it. The club who is relegated this year will get diddly squat which means redundancies in the squad and the front office - reverting to part time and getting a less luxurious coach company for away games. 

You do that to a club in France and make them have to play in the UK lower tiers again it is absolutely nuts. They can't go part-time, they can't fly Ryan Air - it is just not a level playing field. How would Featherstone fair playing in Elite 1 if they managed to get to SL this year and relegated the next? This drive to bring everything down to the lowest denominator has blighted the game for decades.

[Harry Stottle]

35 minutes ago, Scubby said:

A competition that had higher participant standards, salaries, TV income and crowds 5-10 years ago than it does now, is pretty devastating.

That is down to the product on the field, it has nose dived in quality to 10 years ago not surprised people are being put off.

I had this conversation with some supporters at last nights game (and no it had nothing to do with Leigh and how they are performing) but the number of people who said they can't be bothered watching televised games anymore, some even said they prefer watching the 100 cricket comp, something they would never have even contemplated not to long ago, if this trend continues all the discussions on this site will be in vain, Sky will be history and so will the game in the format we know it now, and it won't be for the better.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

That is down to the product on the field, it has nose dived in quality to 10 years ago not surprised people are being put off.

I had this conversation with some supporters at last nights game (and no it had nothing to do with Leigh and how they are performing) but the number of people who said they can't be bothered watching televised games anymore, some even said they prefer watching the 100 cricket comp, something they would never have even contemplated not to long ago, if this trend continues all the discussions on this site will be in vain, Sky will be history and so will the game in the format we know it now, and it won't be for the better.

Yes and the quality starts at the top yet all the discussion seems to be around who is the least #### and skint in positions 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. That is the wrong conversation.

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

37 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

It seems to me that your argument with Stottle sums up the whole problem with the game in England, you arguing for a progressive way forward in a different world, him stuck in the past dragging the game not only downwards but backwards. I bet the clubs are full of blokes like that, just like the four blokes sitting at that table in the post by WMS.

Stottle here Sprocket, 

I will value the opinion of someone that will make a difference to it either by being constructive or helping to finance it by sponsership or attendance, do you fall into either of those catagories, no, thought not.

You have simply no idea what you are talking about, I and many others like me are at the pointy end of the game in this country, there are a lot of suggestions that will turn people away from the game in numbers the game cannot afford to lose, if the sport decides to radicalise its approach fine, but it had better make sure any decisions work well and don't ever have to be reversed, they will find there is nowhere for it to go back to.

[Harry Stottle]

40 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I would not put kr in that list , they are doing great things but no bigger than Widnes . 

Really, give your head a wobble.

[Harry Stottle]

25 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I used Leigh, I could have used Salford or Castleford or Halifax or Bradford or any club that has been relegated within the last 10-20 years. It financially cripples a club and in football you get 2 years and tens of millions of pounds in parachute payments. We did a parachute payment for 1 or 2 years and then binned it. The club who is relegated this year will get diddly squat which means redundancies in the squad and the front office - reverting to part time and getting a less luxurious coach company for away games. 

You do that to a club in France and make them have to play in the UK lower tiers again it is absolutely nuts. They can't go part-time, they can't fly Ryan Air - it is just not a level playing field. How would Featherstone fair playing in Elite 1 if they managed to get to SL this year and relegated the next? This drive to bring everything down to the lowest denominator has blighted the game for decades.

So in a nutshell you are happy for English clubs to suffer diddly squas and loss of employment, as long as French clubs are protected, no charity begins at home for you Scubbs.

The French clubs applied to join our competition, and conditions were put in place for them to be accepted, but then some of us want the goalposts moving in their favour sorry Scubbs we will never agree on this.

[Harry Stottle]

28 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Yes and the quality starts at the top yet all the discussion seems to be around who is the least #### and skint in positions 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. That is the wrong conversation.

 

 

There is No top without a bottom.

If it doesn't matter so much why protect two clubs from being at the bottom?.

[Scubby]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So in a nutshell you are happy for English clubs to suffer diddly squas and loss of employment, as long as French clubs are protected, no charity begins at home for you Scubbs.

The French clubs applied to join our competition, and conditions were put in place for them to be accepted, but then some of us want the goalposts moving in their favour sorry Scubbs we will never agree on this.

The goalposts were moved when a Championship club was given a free place in SL 2021. That meant all previous goodwill around the pyramid and conditions were thrown out of the window. We are even in the middle of a high level debate whether we should relegate no one this year and 4 next year. This sport is turning into Poundland wars.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Scubby said:

The goalposts were moved when a Championship club was given a free place in SL 2021. That meant all previous goodwill around the pyramid and conditions were thrown out of the window. We are even in the middle of a high level debate whether we should relegate no one this year and 4 next year. This sport is turning into Poundland wars.

Go on then you have raised it twice now, why was a Championship club promoted?

The debate of what will happen next season has been resolved as from 3 days ago, one up one down and a 12 team SL. The moot point is what happens in 2023.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Go on then you have raised it twice now, why was a Championship club promoted?

The debate of what will happen next season has been resolved as from 3 days ago, one up one down and a 12 team SL. The moot point is what happens in 2023.

My point was they gave a club a place in SL for non-field performance. It was not promotion it was an invitation but it was also a precedent. This means that the integrity of win promotion on the field was compromised. To me that means all bets are off.

The structure hasn't been resolved officially - it was just speculative press reporting. 

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Scubby said:

My point was they gave a club a place in SL for non-field performance. It was not promotion it was an invitation but it was also a precedent. This means that the integrity of win promotion on the field was compromised. To me that means all bets are off.

The structure hasn't been resolved officially - it was just speculative press reporting. 

So no extraordinary circumstance that meant SL was required to be made up from 11 to 12, not even to appease the contract SL had with Sky?

To be a precedent that has to be continued, I know it won't, you know it won't, I will have a bet with you now considering you say all bets are off, The next club to go from the Championship to SL will be by gaining promotion on the field of play and not by invitation, even if you are doubting that the structure will be a SL of 14 with 2 from the Championship that will be the top 2 clubs which they will earned on the field of play.

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Scubby said:

I think your views on the integrity of P&R are clear but it doesn't hide the fact that the cupboard may be bare next year and players may leave and it is no given they will be top of the Championship next year. What you can't see being so close to a club is that this system basically cripples your club over time.

Less than 3000 turned up last night (for a marquee fixture against Leeds) largely because the home fans think they are going down. Honestly, what is the difference between 3,000 here and 3,000 for a meaningless end of year fixture with no relegation. 2,600 (excluding Leeds fans) is the same type of crowds Leigh were getting outside of SL when licensing was in. What is the actual benefit of being in the elite competition if you can't build? The game hurts itself with this insistence that we should mirror football. We are not football and we can't afford to pretend to be.

Very much covid affected at the moment with regards crowds 

Leigh were getting 1200/1400 at the end of licencing 

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, The Rocket said:

It seems to me that your argument with Stottle sums up the whole problem with the game in England, you arguing for a progressive way forward in a different world, him stuck in the past dragging the game not only downwards but backwards. I bet the clubs are full of blokes like that, just like the four blokes sitting at that table in the post by WMS.

So people who pay to go to watch live RL and want it to be a true on the pitch competition are the problem ? 

Be interesting to see where we'd end up without them 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Scubby said:

My point was they gave a club a place in SL for non-field performance. It was not promotion it was an invitation but it was also a precedent. This means that the integrity of win promotion on the field was compromised. To me that means all bets are off. 

The structure hasn't been resolved officially - it was just speculative press reporting. 

This is just dishonest Scubby. Really really dishonest positioning of what happened. 

We lost a club and needed a team to take spot 12. We were in a pandemic so it couldn't be decided on the field. It's a perfectly reasonable solution to an unprecedented situation. And we have also hand picked clubs before, quite a few times. Just this time it was Leigh so you don't like it. 

And you claim that it is press speculation about the structure being resolved, but it was press speculation that it was being changed in the first place. Why are you happy to accept one bit of press speculation, but not the other bit? 

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

This is just dishonest Scubby. Really really dishonest positioning of what happened. 

We lost a club and needed a team to take spot 12. We were in a pandemic so it couldn't be decided on the field. It's a perfectly reasonable solution to an unprecedented situation. And we have also hand picked clubs before, quite a few times. Just this time it was Leigh so you don't like it. 

And you claim that it is press speculation about the structure being resolved, but it was press speculation that it was being changed in the first place. Why are you happy to accept one bit of press speculation, but not the other bit? 

So it was taken away from the field and it set a precedent. There is nothing dishonest about that. They also set a precedent in 1999 inviting Gateshead (without being promoted) and giving them only 50% of the central distribution. They did it again in 2020 allowing Toronto to be promoted but on the condition of zero funding, and again in 2021 allowing Leigh in, only on 60% distribution.

There is nothing that states Toulouse will be allowed to enter SL if they win the Championship. And certainly nothing that they will get a seat on the SL board and share 1/12 of the central distribution. So, yes they are choosing when and where and how to reward performance on the field.

I am not happy with any press speculation. It just makes the game look what it is at present.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

So it was taken away from the field and it set a precedent. There is nothing dishonest about that. They also set a precedent in 1999 inviting Gateshead (without being promoted) and giving them only 50% of the central distribution. They did it again in 2020 allowing Toronto to be promoted but on the condition of zero funding, and again in 2021 allowing Leigh in, only on 60% distribution.

There is nothing that states Toulouse will be allowed to enter SL if they win the Championship. And certainly nothing that they will get a seat on the SL board and share 1/12 of the central distribution. So, yes they are choosing when and where and how to reward performance on the field.

I am not happy with any press speculation. It just makes the game look what it is at present.

I'm not sure what point you are making. There has always been the ability to hand pick clubs, offer them whatever deal and that goes right back to SL1. Even when they had P&R they declined some clubs. None of this is new. The precedent was set in SL One in 1996.

But the current agreement is 1 up 1 down P&R. 

Your last para makes no sense. Who are you moaning about, the press or the game?