Why rugby league needs a star like other sports

[Dave T]

12 hours ago, Eddie said:

My own eyes during that period, there were big articles about them in national newspapers, not the one paragraph a week that SL generates. 

I'm afraid that doesn't wash. In reality it was a modest sports story in the UK. It may have attracted some media coverage, but so did Folau, Inglis, Johns, Gareth Thomas and so on. 

I was a fan of plenty of what TWP did but let's not go overboard 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, DC77 said:

Google ‘famous rugby league players’. The results (from the UK) are all old players in the first row. The first two names are Hanley and Offiah (the marverick that was Garry Schofield also appears in there). I googled famous footballers (just to see that the first results weren’t just old players) and the results in the opening row were Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Neymar, Mbappé, Pogba, Beckham, Iniesta, Ronaldinho, Pele (so five current players).

It’s imperative for the health of a sport to have current stars. They enhance the profile of a sport as the media feeds off them, and the younger generation especially is inspired by them to play/watch the game. Old names are important, but their role is limited. Releasing merchandise (one example being the cover star on the latest video game), unless the name is relevant to kids today it won’t sell. 

Baseball is a sport that doesn't have a single household name today apparently. It looks more and more like a relic that belongs in a different era. There is nobody to sell shirts or for the media to gravitate to to drive up interest. Maybe baseball is just doomed due to it’s slow gameplay in a faster paced modern society. There’s no issues with the tempo of RL, but there is an issue with not allowing the equivalent of an Offiah, Hanley, Robinson or a maverick like Schofield. 

 

However do the same exercise with Union and you get Lomu, O'Driscoll, Johnson, Wilkinson etc. 

[The Rocket]

Taken from the article posted by `JIm from Oz` in the French Competitions thread.

Chief among Catalans’ success stories is the highly talented Arthur Mourgue. Born in Saint-Etienne, the 22-year-old is the new pinup boy for French rugby league: something the sport across the Channel has badly lacked for some time. “We’ve now got kids wanting to be the next Arthur Mourgue – we haven’t had that for over a decade really,” McNamara says.

Benji did it for thousands and thousands of kids over here, you can`t underestimate the power of a star on kids.

Kids in the playground and after school imitating their heroes is a promoters heaven.

 

 

[Dave T]

6 hours ago, Johnoco said:

I think you’re being pretty disingenuous here. Pretty much nobody outside the usual RL circles know who Inglis (or really Johns) is. Folau was a flurry of negative publicity and Gareth Thomas, whilst a good coup, was in the end negative publicity due to the incident at Castleford.

The overwhelming impression from Toronto was ‘wow, they have a Rugby League team in Canada’? I can’t produce a flip chart of evidence to satisfy you, but it was definitely mentioned in areas it never had been, nor is likely to be again. That it was allowed to fail is another argument.

I'm not being disingenuous in the slightest. SBW was big news, but let's not make out it was mainstream news here. It was a big story for RL, but it was still only a story on the likes of Sky Sports News and some sports pages, in just the same way John's, Inglis, Tomkins etc was. 

Toronto was a huge story in RL circles, but it was no bigger in the mainstream than the likes of the Pro14 having 2 South African teams in - I mean can you name much about those SA teams? 

I'd argue that Gareth Thomas was the biggest UK signing for SL - close to a genuine household name in the UK, as famous for off field stuff as on field. 

But in any case, once again, this whole point that I was challenging was purely around slagging off the existing game. 

Toronto coverage was great, and signing big names from Union is a tried and tested tactic to raise awareness, but we shouldn't use that to slag off other clubs, ignoring the positives that are there - I mean this is one of the key reasons I see resentment. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Johnoco said:

Not saying Toronto knocked Harry & Meghan off the front pages but they certainly got coverage beyond the usual RL places, I don't see anything similar since.

The comparison with the SA clubs isn't like for like either. Nobody is going to be that surprised that they have RU clubs in SA, whereas a RL club in Canada - and one in the top flight - made plenty of people do a double take. You'll also remember the Gareth Thomas signing was met with plenty of ridicule within RL too, so it's not like even that this was greeted with open arms either. 

I think you're forgetting that you are a keen follower of RL but outside that circle, RL is disappearing from view. Sadly, pretty much no-one outside RL could name a current player....if you think this situation amounts to 'slagging off the existing game', you're probably right. But it's not without justification. 

I agree there hasn't been anything since, SBW was a huge signing, and tbh I think the big story was that he was a worldwide RU star and an All Black. I applauded TWPs move to get him, signing big money RU players is a tried and tested way of getting coverage, you just then need to balance off whether you get that value for money on the field - it hasn't worked out with Burrell, SBW, Thomas and Eastmond for example, and Wire's non-conventional signing of Inglis also hasn't worked out. 

But it is the RU factor at play here - SBW and Burgess were huge RL players in that 2013 World Cup Semi Final, but a few years later they were far closer to being sporting household names after spells in Union. Similarly a lot of huge stars back in the 80s and 90s were from Union, signings like Offiah, Tuigamala, Gibbs, Davies etc. 

But I do think we need a dose of realism, we are all sports fans here, could we name the big signings that will light up the field in the RU Prem this year? Who is this years face of the comp? Who is likely to be top scorer? 

We often bemoan the lack of stars, but I think it is the nature of the sport a touch too. 100% agree more work to do (in a areas), I'm not 100% sure we will ever really create household names, and tbh I'm not 100% sure there is a pot of gold waiting if we do. 

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

You'll also remember the Gareth Thomas signing was met with plenty of ridicule within RL too, so it's not like even that this was greeted with open arms either. 

 

Just on this point, I don't think that's an issue in the slightest. It's perfectly normal for fans to question signings, it's happened with all those players we have named so far, but also happens with any signing each year. 

But Thomas was a huge story, it translated into a big crowd in Wrexham and plenty of interest, and he was used in the 2013 WC opening ceremony in Cardiff. 

[JohnM]

Wilkin is most definitely NOT a Star or role model, though as a pundit, he's fine. No one hears kids on the playing fields pretending to be Wilkin.

Hanley,Murphy, Robinson, Boston, Burrow, Farrell A, they are or were stars. 

 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

 I haven't mentioned SBW once, I'm talking about to the general reaction and articles in magazines that beforehand wouldn't have even considered RL. 

And it still doesn't change the fact that there are no recognised RL players today,  regardless of how much I know or not about other sports. 

It's natural this discussion will be based around SBW, its about star players and the main thing TWP did was sign a huge star player

But the point on Union is that a comp that has a very friendly media, national TV coverage, a LOT more money and all those other advantages also doesn't really trade on star names. They have delivered growth though, I don't think the star names is the biggest thing we need to focus on - as much as the likes of Eddie Hearn like to claim it is (they work in individual sports that need personalities). Growth can clearly be delivered without the huge individual names. 

I actually think growing profile of the actual clubs is more important, and that is a shame where TWP is a missed opportunity, I think a league with Toronto, Catalans and Toulouse in as big strong teams could have been a great narrative and really challenged some perceptions. 

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Yes....do something.....get publicity....get big crowd and publicity.

Exactly what isn't happening now.

I think it's a really challenging situation. Back when I started watching it was a completely different world.

RL could sign big names from Union who would make huge headlines. The likes of Jonathan Davies moving North were massive stories and got plenty of coverage. That has obviously died off as Union has gone openly pro and can afford to retain their players. 

We then used to have Aussie Test stars coming over for guest spells at clubs, but the season alignment put paid to that. It has killed off two prolific and high profile player pathways into our top division. 

We weren't better at marketing back then, we benefited from a different model. One that isn't really available to us now. We have tweaked rules to allow for big name signings, but ultimately you are competing with richer sports. 

As I say, I think club profile has gone down and I'd worry about that more. I don't think the likes of Wigan are seen nationally as this huge Rugby giant so much nowadays. 

[The Rocket]

1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

whereas a RL club in Canada - and one in the top flight - made plenty of people do a double take.

 

8 hours ago, Johnoco said:

The overwhelming impression from Toronto was ‘wow, they have a Rugby League team in Canada’?

Johnoco, certainly in our part of the world, and I`ll guarantee it was the same in NZ, never a truer word was spoken.

[EastLondonMike]

I don’t think we can currently have those ‘star’ players with an increased media profile. Those players will gravitate to that status when the profile of the game grows. 
Someone mentioned Lewis Hamilton in a previous post. The vast majority of Hamilton fans (fans being people who follow him on social media and follow him as a person of interest etc) are not Formula One fans. And don’t watch F1. They maybe take an interest based on their liking of Hamilton, but that’s where it ends.

Having a ‘star’ player with a large media profile doesn’t necessarily translate to greater interest in the sport.

If RL can ever get it’s back side in gear and build profile we will see a greater interest taken in the talented and interesting players we have.

I go back to the word I seem to use in every post these days. Strategy.

[EastLondonMike]

10 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I'd disagree with that. Maybe there are a percentage of LH fans based purely on him and his personality but the ones I know (not that many to be fair) are F1 crazy and pay stupid money to attend. 

Look at the cost of attending a F1 event - and it's still massively attended. It's obviously more glamorous than RL (no, seriously) but it also has plenty of critics but can ride this due to its size. 

But I do agree with your overall point though. 

Were your friends F1 fans first? Or Hamilton fans first?

[EastLondonMike]

6 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

F1 first and foremost. It's not something I get but the people into it, tend to be *really* into it. A bit like golf in my experience.

Maybe I didn’t fully understand the original post. But thought it was about having players with an increased profile, who by proxy raise the profile of the sport.

My point about Hamilton is that his profile, which has gained him many fans, hasn’t always translated to an increase in F1 fans. Even though it was F1 that initially gave him that profile.

In The case of RL, I think the sport needs to have the profile before the players can enjoy that kind of increased attention.

The likes of Lomu, Wilkinson etc all benefited off the back of   an existing media interest in their sport. Regular exposure kept those interest levels up.

[unapologetic pedant]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

But it is the RU factor at play here - SBW and Burgess were huge RL players in that 2013 World Cup Semi Final, but a few years later they were far closer to being sporting household names after spells in Union. Similarly a lot of huge stars back in the 80s and 90s were from Union, signings like Offiah, Tuigamala, Gibbs, Davies etc. 

In my view all the years of signing RU players partly explains why we struggle to create our own now. It embedded the idea that RU players were "stars" and RL players were nonentities. For about a hundred years our pro clubs relentlessly told the general public that RL was only interesting if RU "stars" were playing. Great promotion for RU, disastrously undermining for RL.

When the flow of "stars" dried up after 1995, what was RL left as in the media and popular mind? - A subservient off-shoot game played by nonentities. An irrelevance to everyone bar a few diehards now that all the real "Rugby stars" were playing the other code.

A sport dependent on another sport to produce its stars is on borrowed time, endlessly chasing fool`s gold. English RL`s inability to generate its own stars in the past two decades is inextricably linked to the previous long-standing addiction to the "stars" of another game.

[DC77]

1 hour ago, EastLondonMike said:

Maybe I didn’t fully understand the original post. But thought it was about having players with an increased profile, who by proxy raise the profile of the sport.

My point about Hamilton is that his profile, which has gained him many fans, hasn’t always translated to an increase in F1 fans. Even though it was F1 that initially gave him that profile.

In The case of RL, I think the sport needs to have the profile before the players can enjoy that kind of increased attention.

The likes of Lomu, Wilkinson etc all benefited off the back of   an existing media interest in their sport. Regular exposure kept those interest levels up.

I chucked in Hamilton as he is extremely well known and often fronts F1 advertising. But yes I agree that he hasn’t triggered interest in F1 in the manner of the stars of other sports I listed.

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

I agree there hasn't been anything since, SBW was a huge signing, and tbh I think the big story was that he was a worldwide RU star and an All Black. I applauded TWPs move to get him, signing big money RU players is a tried and tested way of getting coverage, you just then need to balance off whether you get that value for money on the field - it hasn't worked out with Burrell, SBW, Thomas and Eastmond for example, and Wire's non-conventional signing of Inglis also hasn't worked out. 

But it is the RU factor at play here - SBW and Burgess were huge RL players in that 2013 World Cup Semi Final, but a few years later they were far closer to being sporting household names after spells in Union. Similarly a lot of huge stars back in the 80s and 90s were from Union, signings like Offiah, Tuigamala, Gibbs, Davies etc. 

But I do think we need a dose of realism, we are all sports fans here, could we name the big signings that will light up the field in the RU Prem this year? Who is this years face of the comp? Who is likely to be top scorer? 

We often bemoan the lack of stars, but I think it is the nature of the sport a touch too. 100% agree more work to do (in a areas), I'm not 100% sure we will ever really create household names, and tbh I'm not 100% sure there is a pot of gold waiting if we do. 

I think you are overblowing SBW here..”worldwide RU star”. His name was not on the lips of the general public. The last bona fide worldwide RU star was Jonah Lomu. He made people tune in to watch RU. With all due respect to SBW but he was never anywhere near approaching that status nor that of the other people I listed. Maybe in close RL (and RU) circles he was big (although I doubt he was that big), but outside that he wasn’t. To give some data on this. In the last two years his page has generated 966k hits on Wikipedia (a time period which includes his move to the Wolfpack), that’s just 1.3k views per day. That is not someone who is moving the dial. He was a big powerful unit who was great at the offload, but he was never electrifying or someone the man on the street would know. 13 tries in 58 games for NZ. Lomu amassed 43 tries in circa 70 games, and did so while rampaging through half the opposition. Offiah was a version of Lomu (a much slimmer version) who electrified people with his runs. 

And on your point about being able to name a RU player. No, there’s no-one, as RU has just gone further down the road in making it much harder for individuals to stand out. It’s a gym dominated, attritional game now. This is why I named Lomu as the last RU star (you could argue J.Wilkinson is, but his is linked to a single moment in time, plus he never got people tuning in).

I did say RL (in England) needs a star, with the emphasis on England. There’s no issue with RL in Aus as the domestic game there is able to produce electrifying players. 

[Scubby]

3 minutes ago, DC77 said:

I chucked in Hamilton as he is extremely well known and often fronts F1 advertising. But yes I agree that he hasn’t triggered interest in F1 in the manner of the stars of other sports I listed.

I think you are overblowing SBW here..”worldwide RU star”. His name was not on the lips of the general public. The last bona fide worldwide RU star was Jonah Lomu. He made people tune in to watch RU. With all due respect to SBW but he was never anywhere near approaching that status nor that of the other people I listed. Maybe in close RL (and RU) circles he was big (although I doubt he was that big), but outside that he wasn’t. To give some data on this. In the last two years his page has generated 966k hits on Wikipedia (a time period which includes his move to the Wolfpack), that’s just 1.3k views per day. That is not someone who is moving the dial. He was a big powerful unit who was great at the offload, but he was never electrifying or someone the man on the street would know. 13 tries in 58 games for NZ. Lomu amassed 43 tries in circa 70 games, and did so while rampaging through half the opposition. Offiah was a version of Lomu (a much slimmer version) who electrified people with his runs. 

And on your point about being able to name a RU player. No, there’s no-one, as RU has just gone further down the road in making it much harder for individuals to stand out. It’s a gym dominated, attritional game now. This is why I named Lomu as the last RU star (you could argue J.Wilkinson is, but his is linked to a single moment in time, plus he never got people tuning in).

I did say RL (in England) needs a star, with the emphasis on England. There’s no issue with RL in Aus as the domestic game there is able to produce electrifying players. 

He was the biggest individual star to grace SL - perhaps in its 25-year history. So it was huge - relative to SL and got many times more coverage than SL usually gets pre season (which is a low bar admittedly). Normally you can count the reporters covering RL press conferences and games here on one hand.

[The Rocket]

1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

There's a lot in this. As a kid, we all played football pretending to be certain players (with running commentary during game...'Bremner....to Lorimer....beats one...beats two) Or maybe 'and it's Pele..' etc etc

Exciting players and stars get kids wanting to play, the French player could be a start. 

I was an only son who grew up on a farm so I spent a fair bit of time on my own , I had an old full-leather League ball and after school would spend hours kicking goals over the clothes line or mimicking Graeme Langlands punt kicking style, the one where his follow through with his leg would go right up with his shoulder level, I also spent a lot of time playing imaginary games between two teams where I`d be every player on the field, back and forth up and down the backyard, commentating the game as I went, I`m sure though some of my favourite players would have got the ball a lot more than others.

But my favourite was always Reddy, `The Rocket` I had a little A4 size picture on my bedroom wall ( next to my Eagles, the band, picture) right next to my bed of the Rocket striding out, he was my real hero.

 

[lucky 7]

15 hours ago, Eddie said:

I can see what you’re saying (tho on podcasts he’s too opinionated and it can get rather dull), but a commentator can’t be the face of English RL. 

I was referring to someone when we have press conferences and wouldn't mumble when asked a difficult question, and someone who the public could understand outside the M62 corridor

[Mr Frisky]

The problem we have with any new SL star player is that he will never be classed as a superstar as people in the UK will always say - he needs to play in the NRL to prove himself.... so by definition we will never have a star player to attract the sponsors in SL.

 

[Damien]

21 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

The problem we have with any new SL star player is that he will never be classed as a superstar as people in the UK will always say - he needs to play in the NRL to prove himself.... so by definition we will never have a star player to attract the sponsors in SL.

I don't think this is right. You can easily prove to be a star player and play in Super League by proving it on the international stage. Someone like Ryan Hall did this for many years, scoring some fantastic tries and proving himself against the best. Sam Burgess was a star long before he went to Australia based on what he did against the Aussies. I'd have someone like Clarke or Roby as being star hookers without playing in the NRL. Hodgson I certainly wouldnt despite the plaudits he gets in Australia. 

[Scubby]

12 minutes ago, Damien said:

I don't think this is right. You can easily prove to be a star player and play in Super League by proving it on the international stage. Someone like Ryan Hall did this for many years, scoring some fantastic tries and proving himself against the best. Sam Burgess was a star long before he went to Australia based on what he did against the Aussies. I'd have someone like Clarke or Roby as being star hookers without playing in the NRL. Hodgson I certainly wouldnt despite the plaudits he gets in Australia. 

Hodgson has been exposed in an England shirt both in attack and defence. Roby had he wanted to go the NRL would have set himself up for life. But he didn't want to. Would still pick him over Hodgson 10/10 now even though he is on his last legs.

[Mr Frisky]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

I don't think this is right. You can easily prove to be a star player and play in Super League by proving it on the international stage. Someone like Ryan Hall did this for many years, scoring some fantastic tries and proving himself against the best. Sam Burgess was a star long before he went to Australia based on what he did against the Aussies. I'd have someone like Clarke or Roby as being star hookers without playing in the NRL. Hodgson I certainly wouldnt despite the plaudits he gets in Australia. 

Totally agree with everything you say - just a lot of others don't.

Roby as good as Smith ever was but there is such an NRL love in over in the UK if the fans dont belive that why would the sponsors?

[DC77]

9 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

The problem we have with any new SL star player is that he will never be classed as a superstar as people in the UK will always say - he needs to play in the NRL to prove himself.... so by definition we will never have a star player to attract the sponsors in SL.

 

The general public in the UK (that’s those not confined to RL circles) couldn’t give a Scooby do about the NRL and know nothing about it. Rugby league within the UK is a much bigger deal in the UK than the Aus version, so in terms of RL name recognition here the like of Offiah, Hanley and Robinson dwarf anyone who comes from Aus. These old Aussie players, stars in Aus, they come over here and do interviews in community centres in front of a few diehard followers of the game. Wally Lewis for example to all intents and purposes means nothing to the general sports following public in the UK. Ditto Thurston. I remember watching the club World Cup game and the comm was really having to make a point about what a big name this fella is in Aus. The fella that came over this season to join Warrington, Greg Inglis, again he’s a complete unknown outside RL circles here. 

This is why I say RL (in England) needs a star name, because the stars in Aus (of which there are quite a few) have zero impact here. Zilch, nada, none, goose egg. It will take an eye catching player in the UK to grab attention here. Sam Burgess has been mentioned, but he is not in the same ilk as the three Brits I mentioned above. A big bruiser ain’t going to captivate the public. RL purists would appreciate such a player, none more so than Adrian Morley, but to captivate the wider public it has to be something more skilful/electrifying. In the case of RL (likewise RU) it’s the eye catching long runs while leaving opponents in their wake, and dummies galore. 

[The Frying Scotsman]

14 hours ago, DC77 said:

 

I did say RL (in England) needs a star, with the emphasis on England. There’s no issue with RL in Aus 

I think you make a very relevent point.

However. How is the game in England EVER going to produce a star again on such paltry wages?? As I commented on another thread, the "bums on seats" players will now inevitably be tempted away to the NRL ( or more likely.... to a "rival sport").

 

20 years ago was a different world..... A SuperLeague dream team made up of top quality players. Now.... The man of steal is a little fat hooker who nobody in the NRL has even heard of, never mind wants to sign!

Rugby League wages are low, Salary Caps are constrictive, and worst of all....budgets are pathetic at clubs for coaches, support staff, S&C etc etc.... What "star," is going to want to stay in English Rugby League on these circumstances??

[Taniwha Warriors]

On 13/08/2021 at 19:44, The Rocket said:

Jonah Lomu played League as a kid long before he played union, the fact that he is a union icon pains me no end.

That’s not true but keep on the crusade.