Why rugby league needs a star like other sports

[The Rocket]

2 hours ago, Taniwha Warriors said:

That’s not true but keep on the crusade. 

The story I saw was that after being seen by one of his school teachers playing League he was convinced to have a run with the school union team, simple as that. 

That was from a movie about his life which I saw on television, it doesn`t surprise me that any League background has been completely overlooked in anything at all associated with union.

The sad bas-tards here in Oz (when they used to be a bit more cocky) used to say that anyone who plays union for a couple of years is a union player who used to play a bit of League. Their not so cocky any more, now their just glad to have any one who has been associated with League, like it gives them a bit of cred.

Don`t worry, you`re next, give us twenty years and you`ll be doing the same thing. Tin-pot little country like NZ won`t be able to compete with the money in NRL or Oz for that matter.

Funny how we get all these sad union trolls hanging around the League forums, I had a look at a union forum once, they seem to spend an awful lot of time talking about how good League is to watch compared to their game, I don`t think I have ever, once , heard that said on here about union.

[Mr Frisky]

4 hours ago, Taniwha Warriors said:

That’s not true but keep on the crusade. 

Well done getting to 100 posts - must have  been hard to bite your tongue.....

[Mr Frisky]

6 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

I think you make a very relevent point.

However. How is the game in England EVER going to produce a star again on such paltry wages?? As I commented on another thread, the "bums on seats" players will now inevitably be tempted away to the NRL ( or more likely.... to a "rival sport").

 

20 years ago was a different world..... A SuperLeague dream team made up of top quality players. Now.... The man of steal is a little fat hooker who nobody in the NRL has even heard of, never mind wants to sign!

Rugby League wages are low, Salary Caps are constrictive, and worst of all....budgets are pathetic at clubs for coaches, support staff, S&C etc etc.... What "star," is going to want to stay in English Rugby League on these circumstances??

Strange to see you have a go at SL or England son, not like you.

But your one sided comments are not really true though are they?  Some of the top players are on very good money - Tomkins been on about £300,000 a year for a long time.

Sinfield finished 2nd in SPOTY so we got a top player to national acclaime when we needed to.

Shame you have to abuse the current MOS, I take it you must be some superfit man/woman if you slate a top RL player kid for being fat! - keep your exercise up on your keyboard though..

Not sure why its important that people in the NRL know his name (i don't know who won their award last season) - but then again they think Hodgson is the best in the world in his position, but we all know he isn't even in the top 3 British players in that position and is infact behind the reigning MOS - As well as Clarke & Roby.

[The Frying Scotsman]

48 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

Strange to see you have a go at SL or England son, not like you.

But your one sided comments are not really true though are they?  Some of the top players are on very good money - Tomkins been on about £300,000 a year for a long time.

Sinfield finished 2nd in SPOTY so we got a top player to national acclaime when we needed to.

Shame you have to abuse the current MOS, I take it you must be some superfit man/woman if you slate a top RL player kid for being fat! - keep your exercise up on your keyboard though..

Not sure why its important that people in the NRL know his name (i don't know who won their award last season) - but then again they think Hodgson is the best in the world in his position, but we all know he isn't even in the top 3 British players in that position and is infact behind the reigning MOS - As well as Clarke & Roby.

Ignoring the patronising nature of your response "son", I will grant you that your point about Tomkins is relevant. If someone is on 300k a year, there is a reasonable chance he would stay in SuperLeague. (Although if he had genuine 'star' appeal, he might well be tempted by external offers). 300k though - would mean he would have to be a marquee player, off the cap, as it is about 1/7th of a whole squad's salary cap.

But are you really trying to tell me that the current MoS could EVER be considered a "star"?? That was the point of my comment. The league has regressed so far, that the so called best player, is not even being chased very hard by NRL teams. It is embarrassing.

[Mr Frisky]

 

12 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Ignoring the patronising nature of your response "son", I will grant you that your point about Tomkins is relevant. If someone is on 300k a year, there is a reasonable chance he would stay in SuperLeague. (Although if he had genuine 'star' appeal, he might well be tempted by external offers). 300k though - would mean he would have to be a marquee player, off the cap, as it is about 1/7th of a whole squad's salary cap.

But are you really trying to tell me that the current MoS could EVER be considered a "star"?? That was the point of my comment. The league has regressed so far, that the so called best player, is not even being chased very hard by NRL teams. It is embarrassing.

Depends on if your definition of a star is a really good player who was excellent last year (who isn't fat as you called him) or if the only thing you go off is acceptance from the NRL!

 

Edit to say - Tomkins and external offers... he is currently the RL player with the highest transfer fee in the world so he did use his star appeal to play NRL - 1st season he was excellent and 2nd season he was mostly injured so he did make use of his profile to cash in.

[Davo5]

17 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Ignoring the patronising nature of your response "son", I will grant you that your point about Tomkins is relevant. If someone is on 300k a year, there is a reasonable chance he would stay in SuperLeague. (Although if he had genuine 'star' appeal, he might well be tempted by external offers). 300k though - would mean he would have to be a marquee player, off the cap, as it is about 1/7th of a whole squad's salary cap.

But are you really trying to tell me that the current MoS could EVER be considered a "star"?? That was the point of my comment. The league has regressed so far, that the so called best player, is not even being chased very hard by NRL teams. It is embarrassing.

You do realise how the MOS voting works don’t you ?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

For me, the big issue is whether Super League retain any star players that it produces.

When I got in to rugby league, Ellery Hanley was a huge star, Martin Offiah switched from RU to become a huge star in league, and Jonathan Davies was already a star who switched from RU. Nowadays, Offiah and Davies would never have switched, and Hanley would likely have either gone to RU or the NRL. 

This issue of star players is inter-linked with issues such as the international calendar, salary cap, P&R/licencing - they're all inter-related IMO. Does the British game currently have attractive enough playing opportunities to retain any superstars that it produces, and/or can it pay them their market value?

An earlier poster mentioned strategy (or lack of). The powers-that-be need to thrash a long term plan for what they want the game to look like. And I'm not talking about just the domestic pro competition - there needs to be a plan for the entire game from grass roots to internationals. If they restructure the pro game but don't factor in the rest of the game, then in 3-5 years' time we're just going to be having the same restructure debate yet again, because these restructures are providing answers to the wrong questions.

[The Frying Scotsman]

11 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

This issue of star players is inter-linked with issues such as the international calendar, salary cap, P&R/licencing - they're all inter-related IMO. Does the British game currently have attractive enough playing opportunities to retain any superstars that it produces, and/or can it pay them their market value?

Exactly what I was saying above.

How on earth will the game in England ever produce/retain a star player in its current state? Financially, Superleague is not attractive to star athletes, and with the NRL and union offering far more money, visibility, international games, perks etc, I can't see a way out of it for English Rugby League.

Just an idea:   

Perhaps keep making players smaller? (IE: speed the game up more and more, as they are doing currently, with a view to the optimal athletes being too small for union?) It would not be my choice, and I would probably drift away from the game if that happened, but I am not the target market that RL needs to address.

[The Frying Scotsman]

37 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

You do realise how the MOS voting works don’t you ?

Aye.

Re-jig the voting any way you like. Paul McShane will still never, ever be a "star" player.

[Mr Frisky]

7 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Aye.

Re-jig the voting any way you like. Paul McShane will still never, ever be a "star" player.

Is that because you call him fat so you don't class him as a star - do you want it named - the thin man of steel??

You lost your remaining credibility when you resorted to personal abuse of one of the sports top players and after seeing your previous posts its probably because he is English and plays in SL - the worst combination according to you.

With that attitude if a young Sam Tomkins came along you would never give him a chance......

[Scubby]

1 hour ago, Mr Frisky said:

Strange to see you have a go at SL or England son, not like you.

But your one sided comments are not really true though are they?  Some of the top players are on very good money - Tomkins been on about £300,000 a year for a long time.

Sinfield finished 2nd in SPOTY so we got a top player to national acclaime when we needed to.

Shame you have to abuse the current MOS, I take it you must be some superfit man/woman if you slate a top RL player kid for being fat! - keep your exercise up on your keyboard though..

Not sure why its important that people in the NRL know his name (i don't know who won their award last season) - but then again they think Hodgson is the best in the world in his position, but we all know he isn't even in the top 3 British players in that position and is infact behind the reigning MOS - As well as Clarke & Roby.

I get what you are saying but it is relative to an extent. The good money Tomkins is on is A$250,000 less than he was earning 7 years ago at the Warriors. Bateman will have taken a huge hit too (and is playing like that value atm sadly). 

It's not all SL's fault - the exchange rate for the last decade is also a huge factor. 15 years ago £200k in SL was A$520k in Australia. Now it is A$360k.

[The Frying Scotsman]

5 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

Is that because you call him fat so you don't class him as a star - do you want it named - the thin man of steel??

No.

[Mr Frisky]

2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I get what you are saying but it is relative to an extent. The good money Tomkins is on is A$250,000 less than he was earning 7 years ago at the Warriors. Bateman will have taken a huge hit too (and is playing like that value atm sadly). 

It's not all SL's fault - the exchange rate for the last decade is also a huge factor. 15 years ago £200k in SL was A$520k in Australia. Now it is A$360k.

Agree, the exchange rate has been a big factor - Aussies used to earn a lot more in SL 15 years ago.

No top SL players went to the NRL 20 years ago as they earned a lot more in the UK. Morley took a huge pay drop to play NRL and it common knowledge that under the cap on SL, some Aussies wife's were paid ( as an example) £100,000 to work in the club gift shop or the alleged brown paper bags were given out to beat the cap.

[Mr Frisky]

1 minute ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

No.

So you didn't abuse the SL man of Steel with a personal insult?

 

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Aye.

Re-jig the voting any way you like. Paul McShane will still never, ever be a "star" player.

But he was the most consistent for his club & hence garnered enough points to finish above players who have more “star” quality as you put it,so you obviously didn’t know how it works.

[The Frying Scotsman]

Just now, Davo5 said:

But he was the most consistent for his club & hence garnered enough points to finish above players who have more “star” quality as you put it,so you obviously didn’t know how it works.

Sure. I was using the MoS as an obvious example of a 'top' SuperLeague player who is in no way a 'star'. There are others too. It doesn't really matter who the "star" player is, the game just needs one. 

As it stands, we have none, and my point is that it looks very unlikely that we will ever have one going forward.

[DC77]

On 14/08/2021 at 01:09, The Rocket said:

Taken from the article posted by `JIm from Oz` in the French Competitions thread.

Chief among Catalans’ success stories is the highly talented Arthur Mourgue. Born in Saint-Etienne, the 22-year-old is the new pinup boy for French rugby league: something the sport across the Channel has badly lacked for some time. “We’ve now got kids wanting to be the next Arthur Mourgue – we haven’t had that for over a decade really,” McNamara says.

Benji did it for thousands and thousands of kids over here, you can`t underestimate the power of a star on kids.

Kids in the playground and after school imitating their heroes is a promoters heaven.

 

 

100%.

Having someone for kids to want to emulate and/or watch is vital for the health of any sport. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/may/08/world-cup-stunning-moments-25-ronaldo-france

Jacob Steinberg of The Guardian: “In 1998, no one was as ferociously talented as Ronaldo, whose supernatural mixture of power, pace and skill had made him the player every child in the playground wanted to be; at the age of 21, the hopes and dreams of a nation rested on his shoulders”

 

The amount of players who are now famous today, who cite Ronaldo as their idol, is incredible. This applies to a star from any sport. God knows how many picked up a golf club due to T.Woods. A star(s) is the ultimate way to grow a sport.

As I said previously having old stars is great..you can wheel them out on talk shows, have them doing punditry etc. but they won’t keep the game alive. A sport needs to constantly be reinvigorated with new names. 

[RigbyLuger]

2 minutes ago, DC77 said:

As I said previously having old stars is great..you can wheel them out on talk shows, have them doing punditry etc. but they won’t keep the game alive. A sport needs to constantly be reinvigorated with new names. 

Case in point: The RFL social media still digging out videos of Rangi Chase from 10 years ago instead of finding new talent to promote.

[Dallas Mead]

11 hours ago, Taniwha Warriors said:

That’s not true but keep on the crusade. 

You saying Lomu didn’t play league as a kid mate?

[DC77]

4 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Exactly what I was saying above.

How on earth will the game in England ever produce/retain a star player in its current state? Financially, Superleague is not attractive to star athletes, and with the NRL and union offering far more money, visibility, international games, perks etc, I can't see a way out of it for English Rugby League.

Just an idea:   

Perhaps keep making players smaller? (IE: speed the game up more and more, as they are doing currently, with a view to the optimal athletes being too small for union?) It would not be my choice, and I would probably drift away from the game if that happened, but I am not the target market that RL needs to address.

I think your last line is especially pertinent. RL as it is currently played caters to a small market. If the sport wants to grow (and it evidently does) then it can no longer just cater to to its current market. 

Regarding your initial point, while I can see your take on the financial state of the game I think it can produce star players (the eye catching players who grab public attention) by playing in a manner that previously created stars. I think the way the game is played today makes it exceptionally hard for such stars to be produced. RU has no issue in regards to income, yet it has zero stars now. It’s attritional, forward dominated game with backs now the size of what forwards used to be, makes it even harder than RL for individuals to stand out and become stars. Madame Tussaud’s in London, the Jonah Lomu sculpture has long since been removed (relates to a previous comment I made that while it’s great having stars (as Lomu was), there needs to be fresh stars that are relevant to to kids today). There’s absolutely no-one in RU now, and that’s not because the talent is not there, it is, just like RL, but the talent doesn’t get the same platform to shine on the field as stars once did.

Everything about RU relates to RL as they are so intertwined, and one of the reasons it’s now infinitely harder to excel as an individual in RU now is the influx of RL defensive coaches. Space is now at a premium. Gaps are far fewer. Players are now enormous. The field is far more congested, and defences are much tighter. All these factors have suffocated open, attacking play. Lomu could never do on the field today what he could do on the field during the time he became a star. He wouldn’t be allowed to, and thus he wouldn’t be a star today. Neither would Campese, and anyone else of similar ilk. While RL hasn’t exactly gone down the same attritional route as RU, it’s still much harder for attacking players to excel. The wrestle introduced from Australia, the tighter, better organised defensive structures (no turnstile defences), there isn’t the same gaps that were afforded to Hanley, Offiah, Robinson to make their eye catching plays. 

To be a star it has to be obvious to joe public. They have to do something that captures the attention of the casual, non hardcore supporter. After reading about him getting much praise on here Sam Tomkins I’ve watched previously to figure out what it is that he’s got. He’s obviously a very good player hence the praise, but whatever it is that he does it isn’t obvious. It could be what i’ve alluded to in that the game is that much harder than say Garry Schofield’s era, so it’s harder for him. But still, he went to the NRL and didn’t pull up any trees. 

Ultimately there is no rugby player (either code) who would be considered as an addition to Madame Tussaud’s today. 

 

[Padge]

You can't elevate a chippy meal to Micheline Star. A chippy with Micheline Star qualities could be found and given the famous Micheline Star status.

Another way to put it is , "you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear".

To be a star a player has to be doing something exceptional, that could be, as with Morgue, being young and skilled above your age would seem to be normal. It could be someone who scores exceptional tries consistently and we do have a couple of those. They do not need to be exceptionally media friendly, see Ellery Hanley*, massively articulate, see Shaun Edwards*, but they do need to be doing something that makes people sit up.

*I know that media has changed and the expectations of the press now is to be fed 'bites' they can use. 

[Scubby]

10 minutes ago, Padge said:

You can't elevate a chippy meal to Micheline Star. A chippy with Micheline Star qualities could be found and given the famous Micheline Star status.

Another way to put it is , "you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear".

To be a star a player has to be doing something exceptional, that could be, as with Morgue, being young and skilled above your age would seem to be normal. It could be someone who scores exceptional tries consistently and we do have a couple of those. They do not need to be exceptionally media friendly, see Ellery Hanley*, massively articulate, see Shaun Edwards*, but they do need to be doing something that makes people sit up.

*I know that media has changed and the expectations of the press now is to be fed 'bites' they can use. 

Exactly, the reason Sam Tomkins' star rose quickly was not just that he was a talented young player but he actually had quite a unique playing/running style. Sometimes it was like he was on a tiled floor in slippy socks and others he was mesmerising defences being totally unpredictable. Either way, he created lots of unique moments which gets fans, viewers and the media to sit up.

[DC77]

3 hours ago, Padge said:

You can't elevate a chippy meal to Micheline Star. A chippy with Micheline Star qualities could be found and given the famous Micheline Star status.

Another way to put it is , "you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear".

To be a star a player has to be doing something exceptional, that could be, as with Morgue, being young and skilled above your age would seem to be normal. It could be someone who scores exceptional tries consistently and we do have a couple of those. They do not need to be exceptionally media friendly, see Ellery Hanley*, massively articulate, see Shaun Edwards*, but they do need to be doing something that makes people sit up.

*I know that media has changed and the expectations of the press now is to be fed 'bites' they can use. 

Who are those? Concur with your previous sentiment.

3 hours ago, Scubby said:

Exactly, the reason Sam Tomkins' star rose quickly was not just that he was a talented young player but he actually had quite a unique playing/running style. Sometimes it was like he was on a tiled floor in slippy socks and others he was mesmerising defences being totally unpredictable. Either way, he created lots of unique moments which gets fans, viewers and the media to sit up.

He wasn’t a star though, a star in the sense of someone who grabs media attention and makes the general public sit up and take notice. Sam Tomkins spoke about being able to take the tube in London and be completely anonymous (he was also filmed doing so). I think he could walk around any city in the north of England bar Leeds and Hull and none would bat an eyelid. Not that it’s a requirement to excel in the NRL in order to be taken notice of in the UK, but the fact he didn’t stand out there would go a long way to explain why he didn’t do so among the public when he played here.

The RL player in England that I can think of who came closest to being that player in recent times was Rob Burrow. The try he scored in the Grand Final was as good as anything you will see in sport. It was a Hanley/Offiah/Robinson type score, but probably even more impressive given his stature. He certainly had the talent, but I think what maybe stopped him being a big name was his size in that he wasn’t able to dominate being up against pretty much everyone being bigger than him. He had an underdog label about him. 

The Aussies do produce such players. Papenhuyzen scoring four tries in a game a recent example of someone who would have grabbed attention beyond RL circles had he done so here. Hanley, Offiah and co. did what he did, and often. 

[RigbyLuger]

The only "stars" we have at the moment are Burrow and Masoe, and that's sadly not because of their on field talents.

[Mark S]

15 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

The only "stars" we have at the moment are Burrow and Masoe, and that's sadly not because of their on field talents.

It doesn’t always have to be about playing ability. It’s about the all round package, looks, personality, confidence on screen and general like ability. 

I mentioned Wilkin earlier, he is very good on camera and could be a tv personality. He just needs to tone down his comparing everything with Union.