Academy products

[David Dockhouse Host]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

I did put spending money first for a reason...

On top of that creative thinking could mean looking where others aren't for playing talent.

Equally, assessing what really makes a good youth player to increase value in each signing. Plenty of "top youth talent" gets signed by big clubs, but very few "make it" with those clubs. Basically look at the moneyball tactics of say a Brentford in football rather than just signing the big lads at younger ages because they look good.

Many of the players in the championship come through the same few SL academies, so that already happens. So the top academies service a lot of the professional players 

Same few academies get to select the top 90% of talent with the other academies get to pick from the final 10%. Some of these do make it but your always working against the odds.

[David Dockhouse Host]

3 hours ago, Davo5 said:

I thought there was a limit on the number of the players in scholarship/academies.

As for the likes of Wigan/Saints hoovering up the best talent,isn’t it more of a case that those clubs put in the hard work identifying that talent,no matter where it’s comes from whilst others are content to pop down to their local amateur clubs.

No limits no.

It's not really that hard to spot talent, scouts go to games, spot the best players and make an offer, only so many youth teams, there's multiple scouts at the same games. All teams send scouts across the country, it's having the best select your team and not the same few teams.

Give me the pick of all the best players and I'm pretty sure I would have a great academy teams and develop more into the 1st grade than I would even if I tripled the investment, resources and staff but didn't have the first pick of talent.

It's less about your investment and more to do with selection than would first appear.

Also if you get to pick the best your happy to invest more into them and the staff.

That's why I feel this is a circular issue, it won't change unless the system is changed.

Maybe we are happy with the current approach? But we shouldn't assume academies are successful purely because of that's clubs system, or unsuccessful for that matter. You can see why some clubs lack motivation with their own academy, if they struggle to attract the best talent but spending the same money as another club it's probably better business wise not to run one and to pick up talent let go from other clubs.

That said there are some very good staff and academies, not their fault they work in the rules and select the best talent. Some also punch above their weight. Saints take their academy to Australia every two years, that's amazing and should be applauded.

Like the old saying, don't blame the players blame the game.

I'm not sure if the solution, just feel the odds are not always even.

[Saint Toppy]

53 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

No limits no.

It's not really that hard to spot talent, scouts go to games, spot the best players and make an offer, only so many youth teams, there's multiple scouts at the same games. All teams send scouts across the country, it's having the best select your team and not the same few teams.

Give me the pick of all the best players and I'm pretty sure I would have a great academy teams and develop more into the 1st grade than I would even if I tripled the investment, resources and staff but didn't have the first pick of talent.

It's less about your investment and more to do with selection than would first appear.

Also if you get to pick the best your happy to invest more into them and the staff.

That's why I feel this is a circular issue, it won't change unless the system is changed.

Maybe we are happy with the current approach? But we shouldn't assume academies are successful purely because of that's clubs system, or unsuccessful for that matter. You can see why some clubs lack motivation with their own academy, if they struggle to attract the best talent but spending the same money as another club it's probably better business wise not to run one and to pick up talent let go from other clubs.

That said there are some very good staff and academies, not their fault they work in the rules and select the best talent. Some also punch above their weight. Saints take their academy to Australia every two years, that's amazing and should be applauded.

Like the old saying, don't blame the players blame the game.

I'm not sure if the solution, just feel the odds are not always even.

Its not just the clubs hoovering up the best talent, the players themselves choose the clubs. Clubs like Saints are a big draw for youngsters for a couple of reasons - they offer a tour to Aus. and that must be a dream for a youngster to play overseas and test themselves against the best of the NRL.

Saints & Wigan also have a long history of bringing youngsters through and giving them a chance to establish themselves in the 1st team. So for a youngster you'd choose a club like this over one who doesn't promote their own youngsters and instead just buys in, thus blocking the progress of their own.

[The Blues Ox]

4 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Its not just the clubs hoovering up the best talent, the players themselves choose the clubs. 

 

That's not the problem, the problem in my opinion is they are signing players they have a good idea will not be good enough but sign them so no other team can take them. I know this because they have been doing it to my local club for years but when you get a player not in the top 6 or 7 players at the club and Wigan come calling, parents and player are always going to go for them rather than what might be seen as a less fashionable but ultimatley better prospects at a lesser club. We get to see them come back to the community club when they get to 21 or so which is good for the standard of the amateur game.

[David Dockhouse Host]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Its not just the clubs hoovering up the best talent, the players themselves choose the clubs. Clubs like Saints are a big draw for youngsters for a couple of reasons - they offer a tour to Aus. and that must be a dream for a youngster to play overseas and test themselves against the best of the NRL.

Saints & Wigan also have a long history of bringing youngsters through and giving them a chance to establish themselves in the 1st team. So for a youngster you'd choose a club like this over one who doesn't promote their own youngsters and instead just buys in, thus blocking the progress of their own.

I know the youngster chooses that was my point, it's self perpetuating. Best players chose best club, they are the best club b cause th best players select them.

The other clubs without the talent have little choice, why pay out the same money to run an academy as another club who gets to work with eh best youth? It's better business to just buy in talent, it could find 3 more players a year, Widnes dropped theirs last year and they were very good IMO

[Davo5]

2 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

No limits no.

It's not really that hard to spot talent, scouts go to games, spot the best players and make an offer, only so many youth teams, there's multiple scouts at the same games. All teams send scouts across the country, it's having the best select your team and not the same few teams.

Give me the pick of all the best players and I'm pretty sure I would have a great academy teams and develop more into the 1st grade than I would even if I tripled the investment, resources and staff but didn't have the first pick of talent.

It's less about your investment and more to do with selection than would first appear.

Also if you get to pick the best your happy to invest more into them and the staff.

That's why I feel this is a circular issue, it won't change unless the system is changed.

Maybe we are happy with the current approach? But we shouldn't assume academies are successful purely because of that's clubs system, or unsuccessful for that matter. You can see why some clubs lack motivation with their own academy, if they struggle to attract the best talent but spending the same money as another club it's probably better business wise not to run one and to pick up talent let go from other clubs.

That said there are some very good staff and academies, not their fault they work in the rules and select the best talent. Some also punch above their weight. Saints take their academy to Australia every two years, that's amazing and should be applauded.

Like the old saying, don't blame the players blame the game.

I'm not sure if the solution, just feel the odds are not always even.

I’ve seen Wigan,Warrington,Leeds & Saints running coaching camps for youngsters up here in West Cumbria,my own son spent time in Warrington’s youth setup after being identified in one such camp,I’ve yet to see Wakey,Cas,Salford etc do the same.

Take youth development seriously & you reap the benefits.

[dboy]

3 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

I’ve seen Wigan,Warrington,Leeds & Saints running coaching camps for youngsters up here in West Cumbria,my own son spent time in Warrington’s youth setup after being identified in one such camp,I’ve yet to see Wakey,Cas,Salford etc do the same.

Take youth development seriously & you reap the benefits.

And have you looked to see if these clubs run camps, or are you just creating another, unfounded urban myth?

FYI Wakefield certainly run camps - perhaps not in Cumbria.

[Davo5]

1 minute ago, dboy said:

And have you looked to see if these clubs run camps, or are you just creating another, unfounded urban myth?

FYI Wakefield certainly run camps - perhaps not in Cumbria.

If they do they are very good at keeping it quiet.

[David Dockhouse Host]

3 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

I’ve seen Wigan,Warrington,Leeds & Saints running coaching camps for youngsters up here in West Cumbria,my own son spent time in Warrington’s youth setup after being identified in one such camp,I’ve yet to see Wakey,Cas,Salford etc do the same.

Take youth development seriously & you reap the benefits.

Not if all the best youth go to the same clubs each year. If it was as easy as just running some extra training camps and all the best youth would come to Widnes, Salford or any less fashionable club they would definitely do it. They could run 1,000 of them and the best youth would still select Wigan, Saints or Leeds (primarily) 

[David Dockhouse Host]

Just now, Davo5 said:

If they do they are very good at keeping it quiet.

A few years ago when my lad was at that age group every team with a scholarship ran them 

[dboy]

Just now, Davo5 said:

If they do they are very good at keeping it quiet.

I haven't heard anything about the camps run by Rhinos - do they even exist?

Or is it because I haven't looked?

FWIW - Wakefield's academy is fantastically well run and would be top of the league, if a league table had been run this year.

[Davo5]

1 minute ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Not if all the best youth go to the same clubs each year. If it was as easy as just running some extra training camps and all the best youth would come to Widnes, Salford or any less fashionable club they would definitely do it. They could run 1,000 of them and the best youth would still select Wigan, Saints or Leeds (primarily) 

Sorry but that’s just a cop out,there is plenty of talent out there,especially away from clubs own backyard,you just have to put in the effort to find it.

[GeordieSaint]

19 hours ago, yipyee said:

A drop off no, there are saints academy products all the way through SL

Hull: Savelio, Swift

Cas: Richardson,

NRL: Thompson,

Hudds: Jones, gaskell, greenwood

Leeds: Eastmond (start of season)

Leigh: Eaves, Foster

Salford: Costello

Jack Ashworth is one of ours. Oh, and Jamie Ellis. Plenty in the Championship/League 1 too.

[dboy]

https://wakefieldtrinity.com/news/

Wakefield have just signed 7 on.

Lewis Magson – West Bowling

Charlie Tetley – Oulton/Heworth

Oli Pratt – Heworth

Eli Saul – Featherstone Lions

Ethan Wood – Emley/ Featherstone lions

Blake Colton – Bentley ARLFC

Jake Camplin – Normanton Knights

Lennie Jackson – Emley/ Wakefield Hawks

Harry Hartley – Dewsbury Moor

[Tommygilf]

4 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Many of the players in the championship come through the same few SL academies, so that already happens. So the top academies service a lot of the professional players 

Same few academies get to select the top 90% of talent with the other academies get to pick from the final 10%. Some of these do make it but your always working against the odds.

Quite, when working against the odds in any scenario the two best things to have are money and creativity.

[Marauder]

22 hours ago, yipyee said:

The title of the thread is academy products, I think a few on here need to stop being so pedantic. 

If lads are from Wakey Halifax etc then why are these lads not playing for their academys thats the question for their clubs to answer

Depends on what mammy and daddy got offered in the brown envelop 

[David Dockhouse Host]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Sorry but that’s just a cop out,there is plenty of talent out there,especially away from clubs own backyard,you just have to put in the effort to find it.

Finding it is easy, everyone knows who the talent is, the problem is as I keep saying that the same clubs will be selected by the best in players.

Umyla Hanley for example, a stand out player, every team wanted him, Wigan will get him, there are numerous others every year. I've spoken with people at less fashionable clubs and they will say we only get the ones Leeds don't want for example. You can watch as many games as you like Leeds and Wakefield offer you a scholarship Leeds get the signature. Saints and Widnes offer a scholarship Saints get the signature. 

Widnes ran a very good Academy, good facilities but it doesn't matter, parents will want their child at Wigan because they won 9 from 11 Grand Finals. If people believe that a 14 year old will think, hang on Widnes have a nice 3g pitch and great youth set up i'll select them over Wigan,. Saints or Leeds they are mistaken.

I don't think the system runs as people think it does.

 

[David Dockhouse Host]

48 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Quite, when working against the odds in any scenario the two best things to have are money and creativity.

You can be as creative as you like you will still lose out, most the time, to the bigger clubs 

[yipyee]

9 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I think there's a circular problem though. Wigan promote youth, therefore deemed to have best academy, therefore best youth want to go there, meaning they have a better chance of having youth with the ability to progress.  It's no surprise they promote more and win more if they have the selection in the first place.

Unless there's restrictions somehow on clubs or something like regional academies this will continue.

If you have regional academys that are not regionally ran you could be failing some kids

[yipyee]

37 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Depends on what mammy and daddy got offered in the brown envelop 

Or maybe lack of opportunity? What future can Halifax offer a kid compared to say Huddersfield

[The Blues Ox]

7 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Or maybe lack of opportunity? What future can Halifax offer a kid compared to say Huddersfield

Regular game time at a level around the standard that some of them are? In the case of the best players though I do agree they need that SL environment. The main problem is that they do not only sign the best players they sign the what if's and its those players that are usually lost to the game when they could probably have played at a decent Championship level. 

[yipyee]

34 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Regular game time at a level around the standard that some of them are? In the case of the best players though I do agree they need that SL environment. The main problem is that they do not only sign the best players they sign the what if's and its those players that are usually lost to the game when they could probably have played at a decent Championship level. 

Its too embeded in the current format but a system like americas draft system would be ideal

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

You can be as creative as you like you will still lose out, most the time, to the bigger clubs 

Which is why I have always maintained that investing more money is the other side of that.

[David Dockhouse Host]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Which is why I have always maintained that investing more money is the other side of that.

I agree more money would make a difference. More community officers, more training camps, more academy tours, better facilities etc. Would all improve an individual clubs offer.

I think the problem is, all this is expensive, you can save yourself the trouble and just sign a couple of players from other teams academy and let them do all the work.

I wish I had the cash myself and I'd love to apt all of this

[The Blues Ox]

Amir Borough signs for Salford. Been involved with Wigan since he were 14 and thrown on the RL scrap heap at Salford at just 20 years old. As we have seen at Halifax this season, a quality player who should have been playing regular Championship rugby for at least the last couple of years.