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Can Bradford Bulls be a real force again?


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37 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

If Bulls by a miracle got bk into SL I would bet on 6k average first season and maybe grow from there. 

Just have to keep plugging away,  getting CC  runs for exposure and hope it comes together one year. 

The ownership of the club is pretty guarded but it does give the impression of live within your means. Whether that is enough to help Bradford grow (with the stadium costing so much) is a tricky question. The pitch turf haggling and pleading poverty is the new norm I think - although Kear is working well with a pretty decent squad.

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15 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Not everyone in Bradford is skint, there are still plenty of people with money to spend. And Bradford City are getting very good crowds from the same people.

This is something that has been bothering me for a while, I think it was our Canadian friend Big Picture, who seemed to delight in mentioning impoverished Northern towns and it does seem to get trotted out a lot.

Impoverishment or ` skint` is a relative term, being in the lower income brackets in a country like England, a first world economy, is a little different to being in the lower income brackets of second or third world countries.

Even less well off people in first-world countries usually have all the trappings, I`m talking mobile phones, mobile phone plans, internet, televisions and white goods, cars, etc. etc. etc .All the things that sponsors want to sell.

Over here Hi-Sense, a Chinese manufacturer of `cheaper` television and white goods is a sponsor of the NRL, they know their market and they know what they are watching. 

I had a look at the population figures of Bradford, I get two, one I gather is for Bradford city itself, ~290 000, and ~550 000 for what I gather is the wider area. These are not numbers to be sneezed at, lower income brackets or not.

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Whippet13 said:

Yes, they have huge and very realisable potential and SL needs them back as soon as possible - by which I mean when they have stable ownership and finances in place. As an outsider the club seems to be steadily going in the right direction in those regards and also building a steadily improving team on the pitch. SL is a poorer competition without them, I hope they get back soon.

Coming up to 5 years without a major financial event which is certainly a positive. Let's hope it continues. 

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1 hour ago, TrueBull said:

3,500 seems to be the hardcore "base". About 3k stopped coming to games when we dropped from SL to Championship. And we've lost about 1k per admin event over the last 7years. The last group of potential fans need to be able to trust the board before/if they return. The other group may just need SL standard games to return. Or they could be lost to professional RL for good. I know a fair few switched to watching amateur RL. A lot found other things to do on a Sunday afternoon. 

But, the potential is still there. Needs a period of stability. 

When HKR were languishing with us in NL1 in the early 00s their crowds were down to 1500/1800 , but it was always apparent if they made SL and stayed there their dormant support would return , Bradford are probably in a similar situation , although I doubt we'd ever see the 10K + we saw during Bullmania 

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

The larger number is the Bradford Metropolitan District, which includes areas not traditionally 'Bradford' but are governed by the council now. Either way it's a big city. Most of the millionaires have left that's true but even so, not everyone is potless. 

  About 530.000 in Bradford of which about 140.000 are Asian or British Asian.We cant seem to attract the Asian community into our game.Ikram Butt has tried with very limited success.If Bradford could attract only 3% of the Asian community to matches and involvement in the game that would be another 4000 spectators.However it is a difficult task.

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1 minute ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  About 530.000 in Bradford of which about 140.000 are Asian or British Asian.We cant seem to attract the Asian community into our game.Ikram Butt has tried with very limited success.If Bradford could attract only 3% of the Asian community to matches and involvement in the game that would be another 4000 spectators.However it is a difficult task.

What have Bradford done to attract the Asian community? Is there work done in the schools?

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14 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  About 530.000 in Bradford of which about 140.000 are Asian or British Asian.We cant seem to attract the Asian community into our game.Ikram Butt has tried with very limited success.If Bradford could attract only 3% of the Asian community to matches and involvement in the game that would be another 4000 spectators.However it is a difficult task.

In Sydney there are competitions run between teams that come solely out of the different Asian communities, they`re not going up against the often bigger and stronger other nationalities that mostly play Rugby League.

Also recently a team made up of Vietnamese Australians won a large Touch Football (Rugby League) tournament over here beating a much more highly fancied side from Tamworth in the final, I`ll bet they all follow the NRL.

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56 minutes ago, Damien said:

What have Bradford done to attract the Asian community? Is there work done in the schools?

Compare and contrast: Bangla Bantams: Bringing 'inclusivity' to the game - BBC News

with whatever Bradford Bulls may have done.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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3 hours ago, The Rocket said:

This is something that has been bothering me for a while, I think it was our Canadian friend Big Picture, who seemed to delight in mentioning impoverished Northern towns and it does seem to get trotted out a lot.

Impoverishment or ` skint` is a relative term, being in the lower income brackets in a country like England, a first world economy, is a little different to being in the lower income brackets of second or third world countries.

Even less well off people in first-world countries usually have all the trappings, I`m talking mobile phones, mobile phone plans, internet, televisions and white goods, cars, etc. etc. etc .All the things that sponsors want to sell.

Over here Hi-Sense, a Chinese manufacturer of `cheaper` television and white goods is a sponsor of the NRL, they know their market and they know what they are watching. 

I had a look at the population figures of Bradford, I get two, one I gather is for Bradford city itself, ~290 000, and ~550 000 for what I gather is the wider area. These are not numbers to be sneezed at, lower income brackets or not.

Absolutely, but you've then got to look at the market share and how cost effective a sponsorship is.

Looking at the regular RL market, how easy are they to reach in other (often cheaper) ways? What is the value of a sponsorship? Who else is wanting to sponsor these events/clubs/leagues? The big companies are reaching the people they want, they're just not choosing RL to do it through.

That's why we have Dacia, not Land Rover. We had Izuzu (until that went to Union too). Even then that is the league wide sponsors, its even smaller in scale from the clubs. We have a hyper local outlook in most cases and unlike Union or Cricket we just don't have the weight of support in the top boardrooms in the country who are happy to throw a bit of money at a team for a few corporate days. We're potentially a good platform for emerging brands to step onto before they start appearing with the top events and football clubs. 

We're 3rd or 4th division football level in a limited area of England. Comparing us with the NRL is apples and oranges. I know because the company you mention, Hisense, do sponsor a team in Leeds (and probably see the similar marketing reasons for doing so as with the NRL); but that team plays soccer.

We absolutely do not make enough of our predicament however. So many brands want to be attached with good news stories and social activism in poorer communities - which RL is firmly rooted in in the north of England. Take Wakefield, 3 amateur RL clubs near the centre; Stanley, Eastmoor and Crigglestone. Compared with the RU club in the city, Sandal. I'll let you work out which part of the city is where the Drs and Solicitors live and which are in the more deprived areas. Yet we don't seem to be able to engage these brands outside of the 2021 World Cup organisers. We absolutely have an excellent selling point about doing good in the community, but seem utterly unable to build on that.

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Just now, ShropshireBull said:

We don´t appear to be flashing money and actually players knowing they are going to get paid on time is a huge boost to rebuilding the club´s battered reputation. I´m looking forward to a play-off semi final this year and a good season ticket push for the season after. 

Has Odsal made a difference in getting some fans back?

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11 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

To be fair, despite footballs dominance, they still haven't made that many inroads. 

Agreed but they have made some and are trying to make more. I remember being told multiple times in the 90s that Asians only liked cricket and would never like football.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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2 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

Please elaborate.

Well the last time the club had a major financial event such as Admin/Liquidation was in 2017 so in Jan next year its 5 years. We had a wobble in 2019 which resulted in the club getting sold but nothing on the previous 3 Admins/Liquidation.

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32 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Agreed but they have made some and are trying to make more. I remember being told multiple times in the 90s that Asians only liked cricket and would never like football.

Depends on the city I think. 1 city with many different groups may see the sports club as a unifying factor. In reverse, somewhere like Bradford with basically 2 groups, British/Irish and Pakistani/Bangladeshi with little to unify them and a relatively unsuccessful club will probably struggle to do so.

Fwiw, Sport both as participants and fellow spectators, along with Education, is absolutely the best way to have solid intergration of migrant communities and is something which should be on the forefront. For various reasons it sadly often isn't. 

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16 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

Because they are sizeable, passionate and have stuck with the team through thick and thin. Many have put their hands in their own pockets to try to keep the club going. It's not their fault they've had a succession of dodgy owners who've not been transparent about what's really going on. 

Hardly thick and thin as their crowds are now at the level they were before their glory years, the ones who were there before are obviously still there, the missing 11,000 were obviously glory hunters, when the trophies stopped they did.

Yes, 4,000 is excellent for the championship but let's not kid ourselves that Bradfrod's crowds are anything remotely near what they had when winning trophies.

Percentage wise you will more than likely find the drop is much worse than other clubs who have 'fallen'.

Botton line is they have lost almost all their entire SL fan base in 10 years, that is not thick and thin to me it's called glory hunting.

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5 hours ago, Damien said:

What have Bradford done to attract the Asian community? Is there work done in the schools?

I recall seeing a very brightly adorned Elephant ( not a real one ) being towed around the stock car track prior to one game I attended at the ' big hole ' 😉

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3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Agreed but they have made some and are trying to make more. I remember being told multiple times in the 90s that Asians only liked cricket and would never like football.

They didn't , till the players started earning millions a year 

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19 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

Because they are sizeable, passionate and have stuck with the team through thick and thin. Many have put their hands in their own pockets to try to keep the club going. It's not their fault they've had a succession of dodgy owners who've not been transparent about what's really going on. 

You could say the same about Salford, Wakefield, Huddersfield etc but the fans of, and these clubs are constantly ridiculed, why are Bradford special?

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1 minute ago, meast said:

You could say the same about Salford, Wakefield, Huddersfield etc but the fans of, and these clubs are constantly ridiculed, why are Bradford special?

Probably because none of those teams got 20k crowds and averaged double figures in living memory. If ever.

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12 minutes ago, meast said:

Then that's probably an even bigger reason why Bradford's support base shouldn't be held in such high esteem, where are they now?

Exactly.

I'm not sure now is the best time to be judging attendances considering the state of attendances across the board. As far as I can see the attendances are okay for the Championship and compare okay with the Super League clubs you mention. This is particularly so after a decade of mismanagement. 

How many other clubs fans would have raised £500,000 a decade ago like the Bradford fans did? I don't think any of the clubs you mention would. What were Huddersfield Barracuda's attendances when they hit rock bottom? How would Salford go in League 1 and the Championship? I think we need to compare apples with apples and I think it would be churlish not to acknowledge their potential. Yes they may never reach the halcyon days again but I see no reason why they wouldn't average more than the clubs you mention if they were back in Super League.

 

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1 hour ago, meast said:

You could say the same about Salford, Wakefield, Huddersfield etc but the fans of, and these clubs are constantly ridiculed, why are Bradford special?

I never said Bradford were special, I gave my view on why I thought their fans deserved some success again

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I decided to stay back from this thread and wait for the usual bitter people and 'know nowt's' to pile in with their mixture of misconceptions, untruths and bile. 

And, boy, I haven't been disappointed 😁

Just a few observations.

There's obviously a whole narrative around the past decade that has been well-rehearsed on the forums - around a succession of hapless (and penniless) owners being appointed by the very person who now happens to own the club himself. The motives and long-term plans have yet to unfold on that as yet - but it certainly contributes to the sense of disconnect that myself and many, many others currently feel around the club.

Yet the Bulls can still pull in larger crowds that some so-called Super League clubs with all of their central funding and all the advantages that arise from exposure through Sky etc. FWIW I think it would be hard, if not impossible, to ever get back to the crowds of the late 90s again. Those days were a perfect storm of an incredible team, some equally incredible marketing from Peter Deakin (and others) and the shiny object syndrome of the brand new Super League brand that was (unlike some other clubs) fully embraced by the club.

That said, we pulled in 6500 for a League 1 play off, over 7000 for the (as it turned out, not so) 'final' game at Odsal and 10K+ for a Cup game against Leeds where season tickets didn't apply. Yes, bog-standard games are bumbling along at 4K or so, but I don't think there would be any problem with the club attracting around 7-8K in Super League, more if there was any actual 'success'. OK, not the same crowds as 1998, but certainly a healthy base.

This accusation of 'glory hunters' that gets thrown at the Bulls is clearly abject nonsense. Success, quite reasonably, will attract crowds - or it should do. Obviously not for Huddersfield or Salford - but they perhaps would be better employed trying to leverage success rather than being bitter about clubs that have done so?

Then, of course, we have the issues around the ground, the perennial elephant in the room. A millstone around the neck which means that it is unlikely that the Bulls will ever again be able to compete at the very top.

So, to cut to the chase with the question from the opening topic: Can the Bulls be a force again? No, not at the top level, unless a monied benefactor steps up, and if we've learned anything from the last decade, that's not happening. It's not as if that benefactor hasn't had plenty of opportunity!

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