Hurrell to Saints?

[Chris22]

33 minutes ago, M j M said:

Because he's never played there, and doesn't have the defensive discipline or fitness levels to play such a role.

I would question any coach who said he'd been signed to play there.

I don't think it's delusional to think we will sign Hurrell to play second row.

A fair argument to say it's delusional to think it's a good idea.

[GeordieSaint]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

Because he's never played there, and doesn't have the defensive discipline or fitness levels to play such a role.

A hallmark of Woolf’s tenure has been Saints defensive discipline and fitness levels. If Woolf is keen on Hurrell (I am not and wouldn’t sign him), clearly he thinks he can do something with him in those areas. 

[Dunbar]

24 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

That just isn't true about Percival's decision-making. Besides, a fair number of any wingers tries come off the halfback or fullback because of the shape teams run and how teams defend. Often they'll jam Lomax/Coote, the defending winger will follow the defender jamming in by picking up Percival, and Grace is the unmarked man and both defenders have turned in on Coote/Lomax and Percival. Grace is the obvious recipient here. 

On the other hand, often when Percival gets the ball early enough to run with and no defender visually in front of Grace, the defending team are often looking to slide off. Their hips and shoulders are facing out towards Grace so aren't actually committed to Percival, and passing to Grace will see often him bundled into touch even though a defender is not currently stood in front of him. However, because of this hip position, this defender is weak on their inside shoulder, especially if Percival throws a dummy. Not only does this mean Percival is more likely to break the tackle than Grace, but he's also in a better position to get a quick PTB, less likely to be put into touch and also in a better position for the remaining tackles in the set (as coming off a touchline basically burns the next tackle too). 

If Percival blew as many easy tries as Saints fans thought he wouldn't be rated as highly as he is.

Look at 1:56 here for an illustration of what I mean about a winger's hips being turned out already, while 2:18 will show him passing because a winger is half-turned in:

There's more than one way to play second row, so while a typical second rower may be expected to play long minutes that isn't always the case. If we were to compare Hurrell and Ben Murdoch-Masila's 2019 seasons for example, Hurrell made 3 fewer tackles per match and 8 more carries per match. However, Hurrell made 74m and 4 tackle busts more per match - BMM was then selected to play for Tonga on those performances. Centre and second row are arguably the most interchangeable positions on the pitch, particularly for a centre like Hurrell, so the fact he hasn't played there much isn't a strong concern. Centre is often the hardest place to play defensively too, so if his defensive reads are a concern that's less likely to be an issue at second row. 

Excellent post.

[fighting irish]

13 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

That just isn't true about Percival's decision-making. Besides, a fair number of any wingers tries come off the halfback or fullback because of the shape teams run and how teams defend. Often they'll jam Lomax/Coote, the defending winger will follow the defender jamming in by picking up Percival, and Grace is the unmarked man and both defenders have turned in on Coote/Lomax and Percival. Grace is the obvious recipient here. 

On the other hand, often when Percival gets the ball early enough to run with and no defender visually in front of Grace, the defending team are often looking to slide off. Their hips and shoulders are facing out towards Grace so aren't actually committed to Percival, and passing to Grace will see often him bundled into touch even though a defender is not currently stood in front of him. However, because of this hip position, this defender is weak on their inside shoulder, especially if Percival throws a dummy. Not only does this mean Percival is more likely to break the tackle than Grace, but he's also in a better position to get a quick PTB, less likely to be put into touch and also in a better position for the remaining tackles in the set (as coming off a touchline basically burns the next tackle too). 

If Percival blew as many easy tries as Saints fans thought he wouldn't be rated as highly as he is.

Look at 1:56 here for an illustration of what I mean about a winger's hips being turned out already, while 2:18 will show him passing because a winger is half-turned in:

There's more than one way to play second row, so while a typical second rower may be expected to play long minutes that isn't always the case. If we were to compare Hurrell and Ben Murdoch-Masila's 2019 seasons for example, Hurrell made 3 fewer tackles per match and 8 more carries per match. However, Hurrell made 74m and 4 tackle busts more per match - BMM was then selected to play for Tonga on those performances. Centre and second row are arguably the most interchangeable positions on the pitch, particularly for a centre like Hurrell, so the fact he hasn't played there much isn't a strong concern. Centre is often the hardest place to play defensively too, so if his defensive reads are a concern that's less likely to be an issue at second row. 

There are just as many, if not more examples, of my complaints about Percival as there are of your praise for him. Part of his job as a centre, is to tie in Grace's winger (turning their hips infield towards himself) and creating space for Grace, but he hardly ever does that, preferring to step and go on his own. Grace is a largely under-utilised striker. In the challenge cup final, he hardly had a pass. Saints are a great side, but they are squandering Grace's undoubted talents, by starving him of the ball. 

[BrisbaneRhino]

I'm a bit sad Hurrell's leaving Leeds. I said when we signed him that he wasn't the best centre ever but at least he provides entertainment, and that's still true.  I'd expect him to do better at Sts than he has at Leeds, who've ridiculously used him far too much in the 'pass it to the big lad' style hoping he'd smash through a wall of defenders, or as a battering ram coming out of defence.  If used right he's still an asset as the one thing he does is draw in tacklers due to his presence.

Second row is an interesting one. really depends on his fitness, unless in very short spells. His decision-making in defence will be less of an issue, the question will be around workrate. 

[fighting irish]

25 minutes ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

I'm a bit sad Hurrell's leaving Leeds. I said when we signed him that he wasn't the best centre ever but at least he provides entertainment, and that's still true.  I'd expect him to do better at Sts than he has at Leeds, who've ridiculously used him far too much in the 'pass it to the big lad' style hoping he'd smash through a wall of defenders, or as a battering ram coming out of defence.  If used right he's still an asset as the one thing he does is draw in tacklers due to his presence.

Second row is an interesting one. really depends on his fitness, unless in very short spells. His decision-making in defence will be less of an issue, the question will be around workrate. 

This supports my belief that Grace will prosper, playing outside Hurrell.

[DavidM]

9 hours ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

I said when we signed him that he wasn't the best centre ever but at least he provides entertainment,

I’m trying to work out if that’s complimentary 

[getdownmonkeyman]

Hurrell at second row will have both centres and backrowers coming at him. His lack of lateral movement allied to his decision making would make for very interesting viewing.

[Saint Toppy]

Not sure if this move will happen now given Saints have signed Curtis Sironen. You'd imagine the 1st choice 2nd row next year will be Sironen & Matat'utia with Batchelor, Wingfield & LMS as replacements.

They've also got quite a few really promising young back-rowers coming through in Lewis Baxter, Sam Royle Ben Davies & Matty Foster, so not sure where Hurrell would fit in ?

[Waynebennettswinger]

14 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not sure if this move will happen now given Saints have signed Curtis Sironen. You'd imagine the 1st choice 2nd row next year will be Sironen & Matat'utia with Batchelor, Wingfield & LMS as replacements.

They've also got quite a few really promising young back-rowers coming through in Lewis Baxter, Sam Royle Ben Davies & Matty Foster, so not sure where Hurrell would fit in ?

Yeah I’d agree with that, always thought it was a strange one but Hurrell has allegedly been telling people he’d signed.

The same paper that first highlighted the Sironen rumour also suggested Sio Siua Taukeiaho was on his way from the Roosters to Saints. I’d be very happy with that signing.

[EastLondonMike]

Decent Signing Sironen. Look forward to him being Interviewed by Barrie Mac on SKY!

Seem to recall a lighthearted video on youtube of Curtis talking about his dad's confrontation with Baz.

[M j M]

2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not sure if this move will happen now given Saints have signed Curtis Sironen. You'd imagine the 1st choice 2nd row next year will be Sironen & Matat'utia with Batchelor, Wingfield & LMS as replacements.

I'm not sure how many times we'll repeat this but

Hurrell

Isn't

A

Second

Row

[Dunbar]

11 minutes ago, M j M said:

I'm not sure how many times we'll repeat this but

Hurrell

Isn't

A

Second

Row

To be fair, neither is LMS but he is in the list above as well.

[Magic Superbeetle]

3 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

Having a second rower with impact to bring off the bench could push Matat'utia to loose when Knowles goes off for a rest so we keep that bit of ball movement and defensive intensity.

A player who can also play second rower and centre means Hopoate is better able to cover the halves and fullback too.

Don't forget we're losing two second rowers this year, we have only replaced one so far.

This. 
 

Hurrell has signed for Saints next year, with the intention of him playing in the second row. He either gets fit and gets in the team, or Batchelor keeps his place, and we convince a Koukash rich Leigh he would be a great signing for 2023.

4 senior second rowers in the team, good for competition with Wingfield and Forster putting more pressure on below.

Oh, and I think Baxter will come through as a prop eventually.

[Davo5]

11 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

Having a second rower with impact to bring off the bench could push Matat'utia to loose when Knowles goes off for a rest so we keep that bit of ball movement and defensive intensity.

A player who can also play second rower and centre means Hopoate is better able to cover the halves and fullback too.

Don't forget we're losing two second rowers this year, we have only replaced one so far.

A backrower from the Roosters is the rumour,

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

A backrower from the Roosters is the rumour,

Not a backrower, a prop in Taukeiaho. He's been told by the Roosters they wont stand in his way if he wants to leave. He's got a couple of NRL offers plus one from Saints. As a marquee player he'll earn the same here as he would in the NRL it just comes down to whether he wants to relocate his family half way round the world to England.

Woolf has been fairly tight lipped about it and when asked just said he's 'talking to players'. Fingers crossed Woolf can convince him to come over as he would be a great signing.

[Chrispmartha]

Officially announced Hurrell is leaving the Rhinos after turning down a deal

 

Rhyse Martin is staying for another year though

[M j M]

Shame to see him go but he was an expensive luxury, particularly with the quality of the players who will take his place.

Will be fascinated to see how this mysterious desire to turn him into a second row by supposedly one of the better coaches in the league turns out.

[Chrispmartha]

8 minutes ago, M j M said:

Shame to see him go but he was an expensive luxury, particularly with the quality of the players who will take his place.

Will be fascinated to see how this mysterious desire to turn him into a second row by supposedly one of the better coaches in the league turns out.

Think it’s just down to length of deal and Money, I would imagine we offered him a year on vastly reduced pay so it’s not surprising he chose to leave.

Id like to see Broadbent given the number 4 jersey, Him and Newman ate clearly the future for the Rhinos so give them the number to make their own.

 

Still don’t think the Saints fans will warm to him like the Rhinos fans, especially the first time someone waltzes past him to score! Or the first time he drops the ball! Hes copped quite a nasty injury and isn’t a lover of putting in the hard work off the field theyve got a job on getting him playing as a second rower!

[Moove]

Not sure why people are getting so worked up about where he plays.

There are a lot of personnel changes at Saints for next year but pretty much all of the signings offer some degree of flexibility to provide cover or switch players around if things aren't working.

With Hurrell he's not going to be first choice but adds to competition for places and cover for injuries alongside Bell, Simm, Wingfield etc. Ultimately he'll either get fit and play, or he won't get fit and won't play. If the coaching staff manage to work him into a second row spot then great, otherwise he's a decent level of cover for Pervical and Hopoate.

Bit of a luxury signing I guess in that respect. If it doesn't work out it's not going to make or break our season. If he does stay fit then clearly he'll offer something different to what we currently have though so it's just a wait and see for me.

How the Welsby, Lomax, Dodd combo at 1, 6 and 7 evolves is going to be far more important (and exciting) next year tbh.

[Chris22]

Looking increasingly likely that this is happening. Our 1 -5 next year will be:

Welsby
Makinson
Hopoate
Percival
Grace

Woolf has already stated Welsby will get the #1 jersey. If Hurrell cannot displace Hopoate in the Tongan national team from a centre role, I cannot see that he will do so at club level under the same coach.  Hurrell certainly is not going to displace Percival.

That leaves two options. Hurrell as a back up player to cover injuries (perhaps we are still concerned about Percival's hamstring), although a more cost-effective option would be to give more game time to Josh Simm. The other option is as an 'impact' second rower in the mould of Ben Murdoch-Masila. I have seen nothing to suggest that would be a good idea.

Whilst Hurrell is a decent player, I'm not sure that given the current position of our squad it is the most effective use of salary cap space. We'll see what happens.

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, M j M said:

Will be fascinated to see how this mysterious desire to turn him into a second row by supposedly one of the better coaches in the league turns out.

Supposedly ? Name a current SL Coach with a better record than Woolf (despite his style of play not being everyone's cup of tea) ?

He's won 2 major trophies in less than 2 seasons as a head coach and has his team in a really strong position to challenge for a 3rd this year. He's also coached the Tongan national team to a victory over Australia, something no recent England/GB coach has managed to do.

[redjonn]

25 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Supposedly ? Name a current SL Coach with a better record than Woolf (despite his style of play not being everyone's cup of tea) ?

He's won 2 major trophies in less than 2 seasons as a head coach and has his team in a really strong position to challenge for a 3rd this year. He's also coached the Tongan national team to a victory over Australia, something no recent England/GB coach has managed to do.

none... but then again what proportion of SL coaches given the team and squad he inherited would have achieved similar.

No doubt he is a excellent coach but surely you have to compare apples with apples.

 

[M j M]

39 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Supposedly ? Name a current SL Coach with a better record than Woolf (despite his style of play not being everyone's cup of tea) ?

He's won 2 major trophies in less than 2 seasons as a head coach and has his team in a really strong position to challenge for a 3rd this year. He's also coached the Tongan national team to a victory over Australia, something no recent England/GB coach has managed to do.

I'll judge a coach by how they improve a club. Coming into an already successful place where the predecessor has done an amazing turnaround job means there remain question marks. Sorry if that offends you.

In contrast take someone like Tony Smith who has materially if not fundamentally improved every club he has coached at.

Not Woolf's fault but it's harder to judge him.

[Saint Toppy]

28 minutes ago, M j M said:

I'll judge a coach by how they improve a club. Coming into an already successful place where the predecessor has done an amazing turnaround job means there remain question marks. Sorry if that offends you.

In contrast take someone like Tony Smith who has materially if not fundamentally improved every club he has coached at.

Not Woolf's fault but it's harder to judge him.

How can you improve a club thats already Champions other than win it again (which he did) and win something they haven't won for a while like the CC (which he did), and maintain the clubs record of never finishing  outside the play-off positions in the league (which he has). The only things he hasn't achieved so far is win the hubcap (which he would have done last year had he not played an academy team against Salford) and win the WCC (which he narrowly lost to the Roosters in 2020 and never got an opportunity to play for in in 2021)