Time to go back to the original Super League idea?

[GeordieSaint]

4 hours ago, M j M said:

What on earth does it have to do with Yorkshire, Saints fans seemed obsessed by this sort of stuff. Why don't the small towns of Wigan and St Helens merge?

You’ve jumped to a few conclusions there… what I said was the French decision showed plenty of pragmatism and strategic thinking; not that we should destroy what exists here by merging stuff. I don’t think we’d have the same minerals as the French decision-makers showed; even West of the Pennines! 

[barnyia]

To be fair if France never had a super League team the game would probably be dead now over here, 

[tms]

1 hour ago, Wigan Riversider said:

As I have posted previously, Rupert Murdoch had no interest in GB RL.

He proposed a summer Super League to fill a gap in his pay per view TV channel(s). His was a take it or leave it offer of £89m(?) for 5 years.

Am happy as always to be corrected.

That's all true it was a pure business model for murdoch that's why PSG and london were put in to try to sell more boxes 

[Robthegasman]

The only possible merger I see that might make sense is in Wales.Maybe just one club in Wales would make sense.

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, thebrewxi said:

Wests. They are the perfect example of a merger that was as good as you could get - where fans were up in arms, left, and then came back to see them win a GF When you listen to Michael Carbone's route through this himself you can see it can work in spite of all the history. Catalans are a good example too - two clubs with huge history, albeit they merged with a common purpose to move out of their league and into another, bigger league

Bad examples are Hull-Gateshead and Huddersfield-Sheffield. Maybe we just do them really badly in England. We shouldn't rush to merge if our standard is these.

Catalans are nothing like a merger , it should not be used as an example of what was suggested 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

You’ve jumped to a few conclusions there… what I said was the French decision showed plenty of pragmatism and strategic thinking; not that we should destroy what exists here by merging stuff. I don’t think we’d have the same minerals as the French decision-makers showed; even West of the Pennines! 

It wasn't anything of the sort , it was 2 existing businesses setting up another one to operate overseas 

[GUBRATS]

44 minutes ago, Robthegasman said:

The only possible merger I see that might make sense is in Wales.Maybe just one club in Wales would make sense.

Why ? 

[GeordieSaint]

7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It wasn't anything of the sort , it was 2 existing businesses setting up another one to operate overseas 

So a pragmatic and long term strategic decision. Sounds good to me; and it’s worked a treat.

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

So a pragmatic and long term strategic decision. Sounds good to me; and it’s worked a treat.

But not a merger , we were discussing mergers , as I put it's the equivalent of some UK based gridiron clubs putting team in the NFL 

[GeordieSaint]

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But not a merger , we were discussing mergers , as I put it's the equivalent of some UK based gridiron clubs putting team in the NFL 

I wasn’t discussing a merger. I said pragmatic and strategic decision making. Something I don’t think many areas/clubs are particularly good at in England. Maybe if some were, they could come up with such a decision as per the Catalan model, or something else? 

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I wasn’t discussing a merger. I said pragmatic and strategic decision making. Something I don’t think many areas/clubs are particularly good at in England. Maybe if some were, they could come up with such a decision as per the Catalan model, or something else? 

So what is the ' Catalan model ' ? , Except 2 existing clubs ( businesses ) setting up another business ( club ) to operate in an overseas market ?

You want Fev,CAS and Wakey to set up a team to play in the NRL ?

[thirteenthman]

2 hours ago, Wigan Riversider said:

As I have posted previously, Rupert Murdoch had no interest in GB RL.

He proposed a summer Super League to fill a gap in his pay per view TV channel(s). His was a take it or leave it offer of £89m(?) for 5 years.

Am happy as always to be corrected.

The original offer from Sky was purely designed to ensure the RFL threw its lot in with Super League and leave the ARL in Australia isolated. Some deft neogitiations from Maurice Lindsay got the money up from a rumoured £50m to a first offer of £77m and finally a deal signed for £87m. It does make you wonder what path the game in this country would have took had Murdoch not decided he wanted RL on his pay TV network in Australia back in 1995. 

[thebrewxi]

40 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Catalans are nothing like a merger , it should not be used as an example of what was suggested 

There were a lot of people in st estate and Catalan xiii that were opposed along with those that wanted UTC to go ahead. It certainly was, and still is  a successful merger. Andvtheyvwre very successful as UTC in the elite 1 for a few season as that merged club  let's not forget.

Both the original clubs have long and colourful histories, given up for progress, and currently writing their new history in their new era. 

[GUBRATS]

Just now, thebrewxi said:

There were a lot of people in st estate and Catalan xiii that were opposed along with those that wanted UTC to go ahead. It certainly was, and still is  a successful merger. 

It isn't a merger , it's a new different business , both At Esteve and Catalan xiii still exist 

[thebrewxi]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It isn't a merger , it's a new different business , both At Esteve and Catalan xiii still exist 

They merged to form UTC in the elite 1 competition. I think between us we are delving into semantics in terms of what we define a merger to be. I would say Wests Tigets are a merger,  but West Magpies still exist. 

[GUBRATS]

7 minutes ago, thebrewxi said:

They merged to form UTC in the elite 1 competition. I think between us we are delving into semantics in terms of what we define a merger to be. I would say Wests Tigets are a merger,  but West Magpies still exist. 

No idea about the Aussie mergers ,wether they worked or not , but thats in Australia , so nobody really cares 

[thebrewxi]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

No idea about the Aussie mergers ,wether they worked or not , but thats in Australia , so nobody really cares 

I suspect australians do. But you do agree the st esteve and catalan xiii merger has worked out well?

[EagleEyePie]

3 hours ago, Robthegasman said:

The only possible merger I see that might make sense is in Wales.Maybe just one club in Wales would make sense.

I don't see the logic in that. The two teams in Wales play at opposite ends of the country and both get barely any support. Play at just one location and you lose the entirety of the others small fan base. If mergers were to happen it should be to create a strong team, one that could potentially play in Super League. Neither Welsh club has that potential individually or combined.

[GUBRATS]

13 minutes ago, thebrewxi said:

I suspect australians do. But you do agree the st esteve and catalan xiii merger has worked out well?

Their investment in a new business venture abroad has IMO been a success , yes 

[Robthegasman]

7 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

I don't see the logic in that. The two teams in Wales play at opposite ends of the country and both get barely any support. Play at just one location and you lose the entirety of the others small fan base. If mergers were to happen it should be to create a strong team, one that could potentially play in Super League. Neither Welsh club has that potential individually or combined.

I get what you say to a point.Yes they are at opposite ends of Wales I agree. And I would agree that in an ideal world there should be a rugby league team in one of the major areas in South Wales such as Cardiff or Newport.But I think they have tried having clubs in the South Wales area and it simply has not worked sadly.Now if there was a pool of good players in those areas or even in say the Bristol or Gloucestershire area(Yes I know it is England)then yes maybe rugby league would do well there and be able to sustain a club be it Championship or Super League.

But my opinion is that it is probably better to have a Welsh club in North Wales because it is not far from a pool of players,again yes in NW England and with hopefully a good pool of young players in the North Wales area who could be good enough for North Wales Crusaders,at either Championship level or one day Super League level.

[thebrewxi]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Their investment in a new business venture abroad has IMO been a success , yes 

Sound. And to be fair they were pretty successful in the period post merger and before they were involved in the business venture abroad.

[Adelaide Tiger]

12 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Do you live in Australia ? 

Yep, although I was born and lived in Cas for 42 years till we emigrated to Adelaide in 2006.  Why?

[Hopping Mad]

16 hours ago, Damien said:

Fair enough, you'd know the situation better than me. I was just trying to think of how it could work because as I said in my original post I don't think the traditional Cumbria merger that gets spouted could work in the slightest, for all the reasons you suggest and then some. 

I can only really see Barrow ever having the size and population, being double the size of Workington or Whitehaven, to make a fist of Super League. Even at that they'd need a backer to get there. It would be far from a team representing the whole of Cumbria but there are surrounding places like Askam, Millom, Dalton in Furness and Ulverston who they could appeal to. Such an entity isn't going to appeal to people in Workington and Whitehaven who have their own allegiances. Carlisle isn't really RL territory.

In the 1980s, Carlisle wasn't RL territory to the extent it had a semi-pro club and a two-division amateur comp, in which a couple of ex-colleagues played. All chucked away. Typical rugby league.

Barrow RL already draw support from the Furness communities you mention - all of them tiny. Sadly, there is next to no interest in rugby league east of Ulverston or northeast of Furness.

For the first time since 1972, Barrow RL also now face competition from a Football League club on their doorstep.

Without a sugar daddy paying the bills, there's no chance of Barrow making Super League.

Another problem in Cumbria is the county doesn't have a single decent sports stadium. Not one.

[JM2010]

9 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

I don't see the logic in that. The two teams in Wales play at opposite ends of the country and both get barely any support. Play at just one location and you lose the entirety of the others small fan base. If mergers were to happen it should be to create a strong team, one that could potentially play in Super League. Neither Welsh club has that potential individually or combined.

I think a Welsh SL club should be based in Cardiff if it were ever to happen. I'd still keep the two existing clubs as part time clubs in League 1

[EagleEyePie]

9 hours ago, Robthegasman said:

I get what you say to a point.Yes they are at opposite ends of Wales I agree. And I would agree that in an ideal world there should be a rugby league team in one of the major areas in South Wales such as Cardiff or Newport.But I think they have tried having clubs in the South Wales area and it simply has not worked sadly.Now if there was a pool of good players in those areas or even in say the Bristol or Gloucestershire area(Yes I know it is England)then yes maybe rugby league would do well there and be able to sustain a club be it Championship or Super League.

But my opinion is that it is probably better to have a Welsh club in North Wales because it is not far from a pool of players,again yes in NW England and with hopefully a good pool of young players in the North Wales area who could be good enough for North Wales Crusaders,at either Championship level or one day Super League level.

I can understand the reasoning in terms of local talent from North West England but I think generating a talent pool in North Wales is a very optimistic. The same goes for trying to find a fan base with any real size. The Crusaders currently play in Colwyn Bay and pretty much the entirety of North Wales is a dead zone for professional sport. It's sparsely populated. It has an aging population. There's no real major sports teams there because it's not a place where one could thrive.

The two Welsh clubs as they are now are fine for semi-professional or amateur level. Should there ever be a desire for something bigger than that and another Super League presence in Wales then it would have to be in a bigger population centre.