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Time to go back to the original Super League idea?


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On 22/08/2021 at 09:53, EagleEyePie said:

I can understand the reasoning in terms of local talent from North West England but I think generating a talent pool in North Wales is a very optimistic. The same goes for trying to find a fan base with any real size. The Crusaders currently play in Colwyn Bay and pretty much the entirety of North Wales is a dead zone for professional sport. It's sparsely populated. It has an aging population. There's no real major sports teams there because it's not a place where one could thrive.

The two Welsh clubs as they are now are fine for semi-professional or amateur level. Should there ever be a desire for something bigger than that and another Super League presence in Wales then it would have to be in a bigger population centre.

There has been talk of RU moving a team there, clearly feel it is an untapped market. Crusaders did fine even with a joke of an owner and an oversized stadium last time. Some big companies based out of north wales. Potential is there. 

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55 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

There has been talk of RU moving a team there, clearly feel it is an untapped market. Crusaders did fine even with a joke of an owner and an oversized stadium last time. Some big companies based out of north wales. Potential is there. 

Deffo, Wrexham has a footy team in a Rugby country. There is potential for fans & players.

We also got more coverage on BBC with Crusaders always the game of choice for BBC. Maybe as some of BBC wales funding went towards production?

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58 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

There has been talk of RU moving a team there, clearly feel it is an untapped market. Crusaders did fine even with a joke of an owner and an oversized stadium last time. Some big companies based out of north wales. Potential is there. 

I thought the idea was RGC replacing an existing region rather than an existing one being moved north? Either way, club rugby pretty much isn't sustainable anywhere in Wales. Few, if any, teams make profits and they are kept afloat by income from the international game. Commercial partners are brought in by the international game. The potential is there for rugby union because it's all about improving the talent pool for the national team.

The problem for a rugby league team is they would have to stand on their own two feet. The clubs themselves have to be the money makers because the international game is a mess. I'd love to be proven wrong though. In fact I'd love to see Crusaders make their way back up to Super League but I think the odds are stacked against them. For me, the shambles that is the international game is what makes Welsh expansion unlikely.

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10 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

So you want all the English clubs to merge to form 'regions' but you want to keep 2 small town French clubs 🤣 🤣

Two small towns.

Toulouse is the capital of Occitane (5 million). The central City of Toulouse has five hundred thousand surrounded by other small satellite cities that make up the region.

Catalan is based out of Perpignan (130 thousand) but is a REGIONAL team with ethnic focus representing EIGHT MILLION French and Spanish Catalans. It's foray into Barcelona drawing over THIRTY THOUSAND shows the potential. 

There are only a handful of teams in the Super League that come even vaguely close to these teams representation and potential. Leeds? Bradford (which everyone knows is a sleeping Giant) 

The Potential of RL hotbeds bringing together their strength for short periods in a Super comp where crowds under ten thousand are shameful is not impossible. We need to shake off our near sighted affiliations and support our game. 

Few are suggesting closing ANY teams but maybe it is time for the realisation, not all teams can compete at the top level and joint regional teams could be hugely beneficial.

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5 minutes ago, Izmir Zaferi said:

Two small towns.

Toulouse is the capital of Occitane (5 million). The central City of Toulouse has five hundred thousand surrounded by other small satellite cities that make up the region.

Catalan is based out of Perpignan (130 thousand) but is a REGIONAL team with ethnic focus representing EIGHT MILLION French and Spanish Catalans. It's foray into Barcelona drawing over THIRTY THOUSAND shows the potential. 

There are only a handful of teams in the Super League that come even vaguely close to these teams representation and potential. Leeds? Bradford (which everyone knows is a sleeping Giant) 

The Potential of RL hotbeds bringing together their strength for short periods in a Super comp where crowds under ten thousand are shameful is not impossible. We need to shake off our near sighted affiliations and support our game. 

Few are suggesting closing ANY teams but maybe it is time for the realisation, not all teams can compete at the top level and joint regional teams could be hugely beneficial.

You either have ALL new teams ( like the 100 ) or you have none , it really is that simple 

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1 hour ago, EagleEyePie said:

I thought the idea was RGC replacing an existing region rather than an existing one being moved north? Either way, club rugby pretty much isn't sustainable anywhere in Wales. Few, if any, teams make profits and they are kept afloat by income from the international game. Commercial partners are brought in by the international game. The potential is there for rugby union because it's all about improving the talent pool for the national team.

The problem for a rugby league team is they would have to stand on their own two feet. The clubs themselves have to be the money makers because the international game is a mess. I'd love to be proven wrong though. In fact I'd love to see Crusaders make their way back up to Super League but I think the odds are stacked against them. For me, the shambles that is the international game is what makes Welsh expansion unlikely.

But that would be moving one of their franchises north. Any Welsh club has to be seen as an incubator for a Welsh national team with England committed to an annual game.  

Only with a club and country packaged together could it generate enough commercial income. 

Short term.  NWC in Champ with 1500 gates would be excellent. 

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3 hours ago, Hopping Mad said:

The problem at Barrow, unlike at some of the sugar daddy-assisted Super League clubs, is they don't have a decent stadium (or access to one) and - realistically - their potential support is limited to Furness (a large town, a small town and a few villages). In the absence of a very wealthy benefactor, the best Barrow can hope for is stability at Championship level (very much like Batley).

Unlike cas and wakey stadia and Salford’s support

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sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward

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Just for conversation sake and taking Barrow and the Furness area as an example of RL interest it seems that of the 24 non-Super League clubs, l5 will never be big enough to join the top table; six have already been there - leaving just three currently fashionable names - Newcastle, York and Toulouse - who will be considered capable of making the grade.

 

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45 minutes ago, Rowan said:

Just for conversation sake and taking Barrow and the Furness area as an example of RL interest it seems that of the 24 non-Super League clubs, l5 will never be big enough to join the top table; six have already been there - leaving just three currently fashionable names - Newcastle, York and Toulouse - who will be considered capable of making the grade.

 

Absolute tosh. Besides Newcastle have already been there under a different name and we’re shared to save a “ big” club

sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward

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On 21/08/2021 at 13:14, sweaty craiq said:

Imagine you are sitting down to write a strategy and business plan for your business, thats been around for over 125 years.

You begin your S.W.O.T analysis -you realise 90% of your direct customers are based in the North which accounts for 15% of the population, yet within that 15% huge pockets contain virtually zero clients. You have an existing distribution centre in London but its reach is to a miniscule % of population despite many exiled RL folk being located here and traditionally a huge swell of descendants of Convicts sent from these shores in centuries past.

As you are absorbing this, Jonny Newbuoy bursts through the door - fresh from his business/marketing degree at a former Poly now Uni - I have the solution he shouts loudly ''let's luvv off all our existing customers by closing their local branch, and open up a new one where richer people live, they'll still travel to the nearest branch because the have loved us for 125 years and know nothing else. We have a great product that all these Rich new customers dont use yet but I am sure they will buy into if we throw all the money we have saved from isolating our loyal clients into the hope of finding new ones''

Company A  - they sack Mr Newbuoy, questioning the validity of his degree and notifying the local asylum of his last abode. Engage in a controlled expansion based upon a strategy of engaging and maximising their low hanging fruit whilst supporting the seed that has fallen further from the tree to create the opportunity for growth

Company B - they promote Mr Newbuoy to CEO with a £300k basic and 2 year notice period, but the gain of new customers is dwarfed by the loss of existing who find alternate products to spend their hard earned on. Mr N decides that a more radical policy is needed and closes even more local branches to create the cash to fund the expansion into the new Gold laden areas which have so far not engaged in the dream - all of a sudden the company runs out of cash because it has no more loyal customers and Mr N takes his 2 year pay off whilst he can.

 

WRU gets significantly more income than RL despite being a fraction of its size.

 

What is WRU please?

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15 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

I thought the idea was RGC replacing an existing region rather than an existing one being moved north? Either way, club rugby pretty much isn't sustainable anywhere in Wales. Few, if any, teams make profits and they are kept afloat by income from the international game. Commercial partners are brought in by the international game. The potential is there for rugby union because it's all about improving the talent pool for the national team.

The problem for a rugby league team is they would have to stand on their own two feet. The clubs themselves have to be the money makers because the international game is a mess. I'd love to be proven wrong though. In fact I'd love to see Crusaders make their way back up to Super League but I think the odds are stacked against them. For me, the shambles that is the international game is what makes Welsh expansion unlikely.

The welsh RFU know that the internationals make money and this only happens with a pro league to produce the international players.

Its in everyones interest to keep the system going.

Its a shame RL cannot see the benefits of this

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13 hours ago, Rowan said:

Just for conversation sake and taking Barrow and the Furness area as an example of RL interest it seems that of the 24 non-Super League clubs, l5 will never be big enough to join the top table; six have already been there - leaving just three currently fashionable names - Newcastle, York and Toulouse - who will be considered capable of making the grade.

 

Barrow could be a SL club.

Could host a Cumbrian academy, has a local league much like Hull. Has a history of RL.

Fan base is there and their previous championship wins demonstrate they cpuld be at least as big as wakey, cas, salford, widnes,leigh but with the advantage of a seperate player pool.

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Despite talking "absolute tosh" according to Deano I was merely commenting on the Hoping Mad view that Barrow don't have the population, don't have a suitable stadium (even though they are one of the few who own their ground)and don't have a sugar daddy or TV money to make it into Super League. So how far does that make them from being a viable member of the elite.  And, as for the others most of League One are hanging on by their fingertips and relying on good will and hard working volunteers.   Super League's grab-the-lot for themselves may not kill them off but it won't be through want of trying. 

Gateshead and Sheffield were swallowed up to save two other SL clubs, Heaping all the blame on the the owner for uupaid debts couldn't hide the fact that Toronto weren't wanted, there are constant moans about Catalans, Celtic Crusaders died a quick death and Bradford Bulls - the one club who really embraced the idea of summer rugby under the late Peter Deakin went bust.   Paris St Germain was an example of putting a RL team where nobody really wanted one.

And despite going full-time and using up the bulk of the cash on wages we are no closer to realising Maurice Lindsay's dream of thumping the Aussies.  So what's so super about Super League anyway?

 

 

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19 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

There has been talk of RU moving a team there, clearly feel it is an untapped market. Crusaders did fine even with a joke of an owner and an oversized stadium last time. Some big companies based out of north wales. Potential is there. 

that's the plan that the welsh RU board want, that is merge two clubs and create another North Wales - but its causing lots of opposition.

Gosh imagine if RFL did that... that is if they had the all consuming power that many want them to have and then them deciding what they think is the best interest.

 

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21 hours ago, yipyee said:

Deffo, Wrexham has a footy team in a Rugby country. There is potential for fans & players.

We also got more coverage on BBC with Crusaders always the game of choice for BBC. Maybe as some of BBC wales funding went towards production?

Wales ain’t a “rugby country”. It’s about even with football and RU in regards to participation and viewership. The only difference is the national RU team garners a higher profile as it’s competitive being in a very small competitive field. Prior to 2016 the Wales football team hadn’t qualified for a major tournament since 1958 (John Charles era), and in that time they’ve had world class players like Ian Rush, Mark Hughes, Ryan Giggs, Neville Southall. The RU team meanwhile doesn’t have to do any qualifying, and in the tournament itself they are already in the quarters (unless they are the odd man out and get the group with 3 good teams). Win your first competitive game in the quarters and you find yourself in the semi. This can give the illusion of an imbalance between RU and football, the reality is different.

It’s certainly a RU country, which is why I think RL will only ever be feeding on crumbs there, which is more than South Africa. RL is banjaxed in countries where RU is embedded into the national consciousness (and vice versa). NZ is the only country where there is some overlap, although it’s still very heavily weighted towards RU.

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22 hours ago, yipyee said:

Deffo, Wrexham has a footy team in a Rugby country. There is potential for fans & players.

We also got more coverage on BBC with Crusaders always the game of choice for BBC. Maybe as some of BBC wales funding went towards production?

Wales like everywhere is a football country, North Wales and Wrexham in particular. 

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4 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

That´s a stretch in reality, Newcastle and Gateshead have nothing in common with each other. 

Honestly thought Gateshead reformed after been shafted. Carried on playing as Gateshead until they moved grounds and re branded as Newcastle 

sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward

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1 minute ago, DEANO said:

Honestly thought Gateshead reformed after been shafted. Carried on playing as Gateshead until they moved grounds and re branded as Newcastle 

Yeah they did but to compare Gateshead with the ownership and infrastructure of Newcastle as if they are the same I don´t think works. 

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On 21/08/2021 at 19:14, POR said:

That's all true it was a pure business model for murdoch that's why PSG and london were put in to try to sell more boxes 

Its not though, the clubs were about to vote through Summer Rugby before Murdoch stepped in. 

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7 hours ago, Rowan said:

Despite talking "absolute tosh" according to Deano I was merely commenting on the Hoping Mad view that Barrow don't have the population, don't have a suitable stadium (even though they are one of the few who own their ground)and don't have a sugar daddy or TV money to make it into Super League. So how far does that make them from being a viable member of the elite.  And, as for the others most of League One are hanging on by their fingertips and relying on good will and hard working volunteers.   Super League's grab-the-lot for themselves may not kill them off but it won't be through want of trying. 

Gateshead and Sheffield were swallowed up to save two other SL clubs, Heaping all the blame on the the owner for uupaid debts couldn't hide the fact that Toronto weren't wanted, there are constant moans about Catalans, Celtic Crusaders died a quick death and Bradford Bulls - the one club who really embraced the idea of summer rugby under the late Peter Deakin went bust.   Paris St Germain was an example of putting a RL team where nobody really wanted one.

And despite going full-time and using up the bulk of the cash on wages we are no closer to realising Maurice Lindsay's dream of thumping the Aussies.  So what's so super about Super League anyway?

 

 

SL money is for SL 

If the lower leagues want hand outs it should be via the RFL

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