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Best Ref performance of season?


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Hull derby. 
Cracking game - credit to both teams - and Hull as a city. Take note with any talk of mergers.

Credit must also go to the Ref - hardly saw him, let the game flow. This was TGG at its very best.

 

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41 minutes ago, dkw said:

He was excellent, handled the game really well. It helped that the majority of the time the players just wanted to play rugby though.

Your last sentence is spot on and if we want more games of the quality of the Hull derby then that is in the hands of the players & coaches. No referee that I know wants a penalty fest which results in a stop start game and they do their best to avoid but, as with a couple of the recent matches you can take a horse to water etc

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3 hours ago, Pie tries said:

Hull derby. 
Cracking game - credit to both teams - and Hull as a city. Take note with any talk of mergers.

Credit must also go to the Ref - hardly saw him, let the game flow. This was TGG at its very best.

 

Yes a great performance. 

He did have two teams in a derby who went out to play rugby though. Not coached to cheat unlike . . .  

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Best ref performance?

Are Ref's there to 'perform' or to apply the laws and rules of the game?

What a daft thread, praise them and rightly so but don't make out their job is to perform for us.

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10 hours ago, daz39 said:

Best ref performance?

Are Ref's there to 'perform' or to apply the laws and rules of the game?

What a daft thread, praise them and rightly so but don't make out their job is to perform for us.

Quite, and as most posters have pointed out, the great product on the pitch was more a result of the players than the ref. Had there been lots of foul play, the ref would have had to blow the whistle, their performance would have been equally as good but appear not due to flow of the game. I've always said players impact flow more than the ref, they can only call what they see.

However, this threads another excuse for me to bump two previous shows.😜

The best refs performance this year has been Ian Smith in these two episodes.😁

Disciplinary process explained

 The life if a super League ref, including a section on that Ben Flower incident when Ian was video ref.

 

 

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10 hours ago, daz39 said:

Best ref performance?

Are Ref's there to 'perform' or to apply the laws and rules of the game?

What a daft thread, praise them and rightly so but don't make out their job is to perform for us.

In the modern world the word performance commonly applies to how well people do their job. I am subjected to what is formally labelled an "annual performance review" for example and I don't work in light entertainment.

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24 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

In the modern world the word performance commonly applies to how well people do their job. I am subjected to what is formally labelled an "annual performance review" for example and I don't work in light entertainment.

Refs are reviewed after every game

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11 hours ago, daz39 said:

Best ref performance?

Are Ref's there to 'perform' or to apply the laws and rules of the game?

What a daft thread, praise them and rightly so but don't make out their job is to perform for us.

performance

the action or process of performing a task or function.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, dkw said:

performance

the action or process of performing a task or function.

 

 

Indeed, but I felt the point was more around the flow of the game and the entertainment is affected more by players than the ref.

Yes people seem to judge the ref based on this rather than simply applying laws of the game

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3 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Indeed, but I felt the point was more around the flow of the game and the entertainment is affected more by players than the ref.

Yes people seem to judge the ref based on this rather than simply applying laws of the game

So do you think refs never have an impact on games, either positively or negatively? Because in opinion they do, often. And like players they have good and bad "performances". Yesterday the ref handled it really well from the first minute, controlled the players where needed when there was need, kept out of the way other times. 

Like it or not refs definitely can impact on the quality of a game, even down to the decisions they making frustrating players etc.

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The most enjoyable game I have watched for a while.

Good crowd,good atmosphere,well refereed,competitive game,two coaches wanting to play open,attractive rugby,no thugs or louts on the pitch.

Please however,get rid of these ludicrous 'water carriers'. They are on the pitch from the first minute to the last and do everything but carry water. Are there any rules limiting how much time they can spend on the pitch and their purpose of being there? They just make the game cheap and shoddy. Why are they all obese? Some spend more time on the pitch than certain players.

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43 minutes ago, dkw said:

So do you think refs never have an impact on games, either positively or negatively? Because in opinion they do, often. And like players they have good and bad "performances". Yesterday the ref handled it really well from the first minute, controlled the players where needed when there was need, kept out of the way other times. 

Like it or not refs definitely can impact on the quality of a game, even down to the decisions they making frustrating players etc.

Their impact I believe is much less than you describe 

I feel it's a form of victim blaming and manipulation blaming the ref for players frustrations and behaviours.

If I do something wrong at work is it my responsibility or my bosses❓ If I fail to control my anger do I take responsibility or is it someone else's fault who made me angry❓  It's feels like an extension of the "not my fault" mentality and an easy blame for fans, coaches and players.

I agree 100% that refs🙋‍♂️ make mistakes and this can be frustrating, but how you react if entirely your own responsibility. Players , fans and coaches are often also wrong, people get angry at perceived errors, only in the cold light of day realising they may have over reacted.

It's a slippy slope I believe to blame the ref for players conduct and the flow of the game when they can only call what they see. There will always be errors or perceived errors and calls that go against one team, holding the ref to account for this leaves them in an impossible position because at least 50% (1 side) will not agree.

The change of focus to the ref I touched upon in the episode 📺 with Ian, I first remember Alex Ferguson using these tactics to shift blame away from players which in turn pressurises the ref. One of his players when a manager at Leeds I think it was, the Scottish winger name escapes me. Once said in an interview if you pressure the ref you may get the next 50/50. This I believe is often just a coach tactic which then fans accept, all the time shifting focus.

It's not that they have zero impact but the focus and blame towards the ref is hugely disproportionate in my opinion.

Edited by David Dockhouse Host
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17 hours ago, John Rhino said:

Yes a great performance. 

He did have two teams in a derby who went out to play rugby though. Not coached to cheat unlike . . .  

Like the last sentence…very true…how do we get rid of this from the game ?

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16 hours ago, daz39 said:

Best ref performance?

Are Ref's there to 'perform' or to apply the laws and rules of the game?

What a daft thread, praise them and rightly so but don't make out their job is to perform for us.

Idiot

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4 hours ago, dkw said:

Refs making mistakes isn't what frustrates players, inconsistency does.

It's impossible to ref a game without perceived inconsistencies.

Players fans and coaches will always believe the ref gives the opposition something they don't get.

I think the 'inconsistent' argument is overplayed 

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Good refs manage the players well when things are getting heated and help bring calm back to the game.

Poor refs fail to do this and often leave things to each escalate. Inconsistent application of the rules, failing to act appropriately on foul play, talking to the players in the wrong tone for the situation at hand: these things all lead to a higher chance of players losing their composure.

There is absolutely no doubt that refs can negatively affect a game with a poor performance, just like anyone that is in charge of managing a group of individuals. To have the attitude that it is all down the players is recipe for disaster, and hopefully no professional referee has that attitude as they are partly responsible for ensuring a game goes well. They are not solely responsible though.

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51 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Good refs manage the players well when things are getting heated and help bring calm back to the game.

Poor refs fail to do this and often leave things to each escalate. Inconsistent application of the rules, failing to act appropriately on foul play, talking to the players in the wrong tone for the situation at hand: these things all lead to a higher chance of players losing their composure.

There is absolutely no doubt that refs can negatively affect a game with a poor performance, just like anyone that is in charge of managing a group of individuals. To have the attitude that it is all down the players is recipe for disaster, and hopefully no professional referee has that attitude as they are partly responsible for ensuring a game goes well. They are not solely responsible though.

There is absolute doubt that refs affect all games though.  Easy to blame the ref. Good refs manage the players, indisciplined players of ignore this and continue, that's not the refs fault.  Players poor discipline is not the full responsibility of the ref, players are responsible for their own actions.

I think people forget that refs are there to call the rules, they cannot be responsible for players acting up, it really is that simple. When did this blaming of the ref start? It's a real focus shift

Reminds me of the old story, kid burns down school, parents ask who sold them the matches.

I may be on my own thinking this but I truly believe the focus on refs has become too much of a obsession and blame is disproportionate.

The abuse refs get at all levels is also a huge concern, we are really struggling to keep and attract refs

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2 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

There is absolute doubt that refs affect all games though. 

Of course they do. They must do. They're part of the game. That doesn't mean it's always negative and it doesn't mean it's always much. To say they don't is a complete misunderstanding of their role in a game.

2 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Easy to blame the ref. Good refs manage the players, indisciplined players of ignore this and continue, that's not the refs fault.  Players poor discipline is not the full responsibility of the ref, players are responsible for their own actions.

No one is saying the players discipline isn't their own responsibility. That's a misrepresentation of the issue. I compare it to a classroom: the students are obviously responsible for their own behaviour, but the actions of the teacher can massively influence that behaviour. The aim is for the students, like the players, to be as successful as possible; so if certain actions improve those chances of success and certain actions limit it, then this must be looked at and included in training as part of professional development of referees (which I would hopefully assume already is).

The attitude of "you are solely responsible for their own actions" rather than "how can what I do affect what you do" is reason why you get "I am the law" style attitudes in position of power that usually leads to the behaviours of the people they're in control of breaking down and then wondering why.

2 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I think people forget that refs are there to call the rules, they cannot be responsible for players acting up, it really is that simple. When did this blaming of the ref start? It's a real focus shift

This in itself is contradictory if looked into further. Refs are there to call the rules, but when they fail to do this effectively then this negatively influences the behaviour of the players around them and increases the chance of ill-discipline. This is the "I am the law" type of thinking that ruins games, and thus the entertainment.

2 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Reminds me of the old story, kid burns down school, parents ask who sold them the matches.

Who is the referee in this metaphor?

2 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I may be on my own thinking this but I truly believe the focus on refs has become too much of a obsession and blame is disproportionate.

I agree blame is disproportionate. But referees are not completely blameless, hence why you used the phrase "disproportionate" and not "unwarranted".

2 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

The abuse refs get at all levels is also a huge concern, we are really struggling to keep and attract refs

We are. However, if we attack this from two sides - training referees to manage players more effectively so that the game doesn't boil over, whilst also ensuring affective consequences for players who break them - we are less likely to see abuse and thus keep more refs involved as well as improve our

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7 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Of course they do. They must do. They're part of the game. That doesn't mean it's always negative and it doesn't mean it's always much. To say they don't is a complete misunderstanding of their role in a game.

No one is saying the players discipline isn't their own responsibility. That's a misrepresentation of the issue. I compare it to a classroom: the students are obviously responsible for their own behaviour, but the actions of the teacher can massively influence that behaviour. The aim is for the students, like the players, to be as successful as possible; so if certain actions improve those chances of success and certain actions limit it, then this must be looked at and included in training as part of professional development of referees (which I would hopefully assume already is).

The attitude of "you are solely responsible for their own actions" rather than "how can what I do affect what you do" is reason why you get "I am the law" style attitudes in position of power that usually leads to the behaviours of the people they're in control of breaking down and then wondering why.

This in itself is contradictory if looked into further. Refs are there to call the rules, but when they fail to do this effectively then this negatively influences the behaviour of the players around them and increases the chance of ill-discipline. This is the "I am the law" type of thinking that ruins games, and thus the entertainment.

Who is the referee in this metaphor?

I agree blame is disproportionate. But referees are not completely blameless, hence why you used the phrase "disproportionate" and not "unwarranted".

We are. However, if we attack this from two sides - training referees to manage players more effectively so that the game doesn't boil over, whilst also ensuring affective consequences for players who break them - we are less likely to see abuse and thus keep more refs involved as well as improve our

Great post even if I do disagree 😁

I don't think the classroom teacher student comparison is a good one, refs apply the laws of the game, teachers are there to develop and educate people, that would be a comparison with a coach not a ref.

Your view that refs need to control players better to stop the abuse is placing responsibility on the wrong person, I consider his victim blaming and whilst you and others place sole responsibility for 'boiling over' at the ref, nothing I could say would change that. Again using a tired old metaphor, a lady in a short skirt walks past a building site and gets wolf whistled at, do we educate the lady to wear different clothes? If she walked a different way, or wore different clothes she wouldn't be whistled at eh? Not a great way to make a point I know but the only one I can think of at the moment 😕.

I am not saying refs are completely blameless or don't make errors, the point I disagree with is justfying the reaction in real time, this should be done through constructive review which happens but fans believe it doesn't, hence these episodes with Ian.

You cannot blame the ref for the abuse they get, even if they have a poor game they should not be abused. Some horrendous abuse of young refs in the community game, all justified by the same reasons, they failed to control the game, they made errors, they upset my players by poor calls, it's true I've seen this abuse on refs as old as 13/14 with adults not believing there's anything wrong in this abuse. It's very very sad.

What is 'manage players better'? again the whole responsibility thing is the wrong way round, players and coaches manage players.

Refs will always always make errors, therefore by this way of thinking, players are always justified in losing their cool without responsibility, because the ref made errors that led to them being frustrated. Also very worth noting that players and fans get decisions wrong at times, they lose their cool as they believe they were hard done to, only to realise after the ref was correct, who takes responsibility then?

Refs get reviewed, coaches can make points after the game when the mist has settled, this is then more constructive than permitting players to lose cool and have a go at ref on real time.

I respect your view and appreciate your time making your points but I respectfully disagree. I also accept it appears I am one of very few with this mindset towards refs😕

Your points are very well made even if we disagree, would be great if you could out them on the YouTube 📺 comments section, we may be able to use them in a follow up episode as I think this is a great hot topic and one that creates opinion and divide.👍

 

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It was a good refereeing performance on Saturday. I posted during the game that we didn't seem to be getting any 50/50 calls but that's sport sometimes. He didn't make any big errors and he allowed the game to flow nicely.

That said it was a very easy game to referee. The players all wanted to get on with it. No trying to milk penalties, no feigning injury, they played the way it's meant to be played. That was the big difference between this and a lot of other games imo.

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