Wigan...an analysis

[Chrispmartha]

30 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

It obviously would.

Why?

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

I mentioned before about the total lack of marketing around the ‘retro’ round, a total missed opportunity by Wigan.

How many great times in the 90s did they have to draw on,  absolutely loads, but we didn’t get any clips on the big screen, no past players on the pitch before the game or at half time, I think Wigan do have a bit of an identity and marketing issue, the rebrand was terrible timing (and badly implemented).

The Wigan RL brand is/was huge but they don’t seem to know what to do with it or how to promote it

Wasn’t it Mick Hogan who brought in the “Big One” games every year,I think the first one brought in a 20k crowd against Leeds and subsequent ones in the high teens,we seem to have lost our way since he departed.

[Davo5]

11 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Did I not say that a smaller stadium would actually increase crowds? I think I did.  5k is probably a touch too small for Salford 6k would be ideal but yes sky will show high capacity games over low capacity games. 

Thought experiement, would it be easier for Giants to attract crowds in a snug 10k stadium than their current box?

 

If Salford’s ambition is to get enough fans into a tiny stadium to make them look good on TV,they might be in the wrong league.

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Why?

Atmosphere.

5000 people in a small capacity venue has a better atmosphere than 20k in a huge 80k arena (roughly the same percentage as Huddersfield get), having experienced both imo.

Currently Huddersfield are selling something that feels a bit soulless and is really hard to generate the atmosphere that good sporting events have. A more appropriate sized ground would help alleviate that.

Stick Cas, which for all its flaws do have an excellent atmosphere at the Jungle, in Elland Road or even Headingley and suddenly the atmosphere isn't there. 

[Man of Kent]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

You'll know from my posts that there is plenty I am critical of, but I just think there needs to be an element of pragmatism. 

I do believe there is a risk of talking ourselves into a crisis, and your last line is a good example. It is over the top. 

The steadfast refusal to enjoy anything about the game is draining.

It's possible to worry about lower crowds without thinking the game is dying. 

It's possible to be annoyed with a ban without everything being a farce. 

My point about people taking a break from the game is a serious one, some people appear to be martyrs, if the product is as bad as they tell us (and anyone who will listen, every single day), then why not spend time doing something they enjoy? As per the Tim Butcher article, some people are more harmful than the enemies of the game. 

 

The sport is confronted with the very real problem of a significant drop in its primary sources of revenue - TV money and gate receipts. That isn’t ‘gone to the dogs’ emotive opinion on an internet forum, it’s reality.

 

The game/clubs do need some sort of plan to ensure Sky renews its contract with Super League after the next TV deal and entice the people who’ve stopped going to come back. 

 

Feels to me this is a smell the coffee moment.

 

[Chrispmartha]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Atmosphere.

5000 people in a small capacity venue has a better atmosphere than 20k in a huge 80k arena (roughly the same percentage as Huddersfield get), having experienced both imo.

Currently Huddersfield are selling something that feels a bit soulless and is really hard to generate the atmosphere that good sporting events have. A more appropriate sized ground would help alleviate that.

Stick Cas, which for all its flaws do have an excellent atmosphere at the Jungle, in Elland Road or even Headingley and suddenly the atmosphere isn't there. 

That doesn't really answer the question as to why it would attract more people.

 

The Jungle does not look better on TV than a half full Headingley or Elland road it looks like a backwater sport that is stuck in the 60s.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

 

The sport is confronted with the very real problem of a significant drop in its primary sources of revenue - TV money and gate receipts. That isn’t ‘gone to the dogs’ emotive opinion on an internet forum, it’s reality.

 

The game/clubs do need some sort of plan to ensure Sky renews its contract with Super League after the next TV deal and entice the people who’ve stopped going to come back. 

 

Feels to me this is a smell the coffee moment.

 

For all the criticism of the clubs 'sustainability first' approach of the last decade (which I have also criticised), I think it has put us in a position to weather this financial shock. Certainly at SL level. If we look at the deficit that will need to be recovered, we are talking relatively modest amounts of money. Now I'm not playing that down, as any club trying to cover a few hundred thousand will be challenging, but we are in a stronger position than had we allowed wage bills to run to crazy excessive levels like we perhaps see in RU for example. 

That said, I worry about the leaders we have in terms of approach to doing this. If we just do more of the same but cut costs, I worry that we will end up in a downward spiral. I agree with your coffee line somewhat, but I think this has always been the case that we need to make some tough decisions and see them through. We always seem prepared to make the decisions, but don't have the courage or patience to make them work. 

But whilst we have seen a c40% reduction in cash from Sky, we also have opportunities here - from the bits of detail we have here we have gained full coverage of all games (worth a substantial amount if true), and exclusivity appears to have gone, meaning we may be able to monetise more SL games. This will hopefully help to bridge the gap in funding. 

We then also have the Our League platform which is relatively advanced and needs to move to the next phase in its life cycle. 

At the moment the main focus is on what we lost with the latest Sky deal (cash), and we need to turn that round to focus on what we gained (coverage and rights) to allow us to grow the broadcasting proposition.

We either sit and lick our wounds, or we grasp this opportunity and nail it. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Chrispmartha said:

That doesn't really answer the question as to why it would attract more people.

 

The Jungle does not look better on TV than a half full Headingley or Elland road it looks like a backwater sport that is stuck in the 60s.

You're discussing 2 different things there though. 

To attend, in person, atmosphere is an important factor.

To watch on TV is equally important and I agree Cas gives a poor impression.

Huddersfield's problem is the former. So naturally discussions will focus on that. If Cas do ever build a new ground, they won't go for a 24k all seater venue because it would kill their atmosphere and matchday experience. 

[Chrispmartha]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

You're discussing 2 different things there though. 

To attend, in person, atmosphere is an important factor.

To watch on TV is equally important and I agree Cas gives a poor impression.

Huddersfield's problem is the former. So naturally discussions will focus on that. If Cas do ever build a new ground, they won't go for a 24k all seater venue because it would kill their atmosphere and matchday experience. 

But the point being I don't see how moving to a smaller stadium would  increase actual crowds by any meaningful measurement, which was the point I was replying to.

[Chrispmartha]

25 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

. And it´s well known that empty stadiums where you can´t generate an atmosphere puts people off going. 

Is it?

[Chrispmartha]

28 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I thought their aim would be to be self sustainable at any level they are playing out. A 5000 capacity stadium you fill is better than 3000 in a 12000 stadium. Plus in the smaller one they can pop a 3g pitch down and actually generate some revenue outside of matchdays. 

But 6,000 + in a 12,000 capacity stadium is something you can’t achieve in a 5,000 capacity stadium.

 

Our aim at the top level of our sport shouldn’t be to have 5,000 capacity crowds

[Chrispmartha]

48 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

 

I think Salford have a better future in a 5,000 caoacity 3g facility than a 12,000 box that they cannot generate any rev from. 

Possibly but Im not convinced it should be in the top level of the sport if that's the level of ambition.

[sweaty craiq]

2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

No but I was thinking for Salford. We need more clubs around Wire´s level or who can pull in around the 8000 mark. Toulouse, York, Newcastle, even Wakefield can improve if they sort out their dump. Yes Wigan is bad but we can´t just rely on the same teams to generate good games and attendances. 

Those below that need to be adding something to the game rather than just picking up central funding. At least if Salford had a 3g stadium they could be working more with schools to use the facility and get more kids involved in the sport, they cant do that in the box currently.

All clubs can improve with the right incentive to do so. 3g etc should not be the way forward for a summer sport though, I bet SL players would love to go back to London or Widnes btw

We must construct a structure that embraces what we have, clubs with a fan base outside SL need saving from those who dont, until they build that fan base of course ie the door must never be closed

Two full time tens is the solution to sell to Sky, with magic weekends and 9's weekends to supplement fixtures if you dont want 27 games in the regular season, 13 H&A plus magic

[Leeds Wire]

On 22/08/2021 at 10:50, ELBOWSEYE said:

Interesting only one comment posted on the website, apathy at best. But he mentioned the sky commentators how they rabble on about something even the most ardent viewers struggle to agree with. Watching Fridays game as a neutral with my wife and even she shouted I wish they would shut up so we can watch the game. I like Terry and Barry but they are doing the game no favours with their nonstop drivel. 

I strongly agree with all of this. It's embarrassing enough watching alone but when you try to explain it to people it makes me cringe. I feel they belong in the 1970s or 80s.

As for Wigan, well, one of the biggest clubs in the world going through a bad patch. They'll be fine.

[yipyee]

5 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

All clubs can improve with the right incentive to do so. 3g etc should not be the way forward for a summer sport though, I bet SL players would love to go back to London or Widnes btw

We must construct a structure that embraces what we have, clubs with a fan base outside SL need saving from those who dont, until they build that fan base of course ie the door must never be closed

Two full time tens is the solution to sell to Sky, with magic weekends and 9's weekends to supplement fixtures if you dont want 27 games in the regular season, 13 H&A plus magic

Sky want a competition with close games and a decent geographical spread. So do the BBC.

Putting Leigh into the league was a shot in the foot.

A league of 14 with no loop fixtures and no whipping boys is required not the stupid 2 x10 which ultimately reduces the top teams and rebrands the northen ford premiership yet again!

[yipyee]

3 hours ago, Leeds Wire said:

I strongly agree with all of this. It's embarrassing enough watching alone but when you try to explain it to people it makes me cringe. I feel they belong in the 1970s or 80s.

As for Wigan, well, one of the biggest clubs in the world going through a bad patch. They'll be fine.

I agree, blabbering on about lads and dads etc make the sport look small time and jobs for the boys and clicky that union used to be accused of.

[Tommygilf]

4 hours ago, yipyee said:

I agree, blabbering on about lads and dads etc make the sport look small time and jobs for the boys and clicky that union used to be accused of.

RL is as 'who you know' jobs for the boys as union is, except they have degrees

[sweaty craiq]

8 hours ago, yipyee said:

Sky want a competition with close games and a decent geographical spread. So do the BBC.

Putting Leigh into the league was a shot in the foot.

A league of 14 with no loop fixtures and no whipping boys is required not the stupid 2 x10 which ultimately reduces the top teams and rebrands the northen ford premiership yet again!

So many still cannot grasp what two tens means, so try to belittle it by reference to previous second tiers for part time clubs. 

Grow FT player pool, a true elite, a genuine recovery room or pit stop, competition, p&r, marketable, 3 genuine end of season areas of interest that Sky enjoy with soccer and RU - Who will win SL1, who will get relegated from SL1 and who will win promotion from SL2. Three genuine games of interest for the run in.

As Derek pointed out CASH is needed but you dont choose to sell your house when prices are low, and we have to go back to sky with a product they value and want, otherwise next time it could be nothing

[yipyee]

23 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

So many still cannot grasp what two tens means, so try to belittle it by reference to previous second tiers for part time clubs. 

Grow FT player pool, a true elite, a genuine recovery room or pit stop, competition, p&r, marketable, 3 genuine end of season areas of interest that Sky enjoy with soccer and RU - Who will win SL1, who will get relegated from SL1 and who will win promotion from SL2. Three genuine games of interest for the run in.

As Derek pointed out CASH is needed but you dont choose to sell your house when prices are low, and we have to go back to sky with a product they value and want, otherwise next time it could be nothing

You can try to glam it up all you want to, it will still be division 2 and division 1 will have less teams in it.

Is league 1 the same standard as the championship as this is the comparison but moved up 1 level

[The Future is League]

On 22/08/2021 at 18:02, JohnM said:

Manchester Evening News looks at the club.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/wigan-warriors-history-fans-apathy-21367342.amp

Obviously there is something wrong behind the scenes at Wigan which we don't know about and probably never will

[Damien]

Some really informative answers from the fans forum here. Very open and honest and Lenegan and Radlinksi need to be commended for that. As a Wigan fan some of it certainly isn't what I hoped for and is definitely what I had feared:

https://wiganwarriors.com/blog/2021/09/03/fans-forum-the-first-hour/

[Live after death]

11 minutes ago, Damien said:

Some really informative answers from the fans forum here. Very open and honest and Lenegan and Radlinksi need to be commended for that. As a Wigan fan some of it certainly isn't what I hoped for and is definitely what I had feared:

https://wiganwarriors.com/blog/2021/09/03/fans-forum-the-first-hour/

Trouble with Wigan fans is they utterly demand  success and won’t accept  anything other than winning trophies every single year as failure. This is somewhat true if Leeds fans recently or Man U or Liverpool. When any sports  team has had a period of huge success and dominance, fans want this to be the norm. But this is not always the case, see also Olympic cycling and Rowing where the last Olympics was not as much a success as previous 2-4 so its deemed failure, rather than judging it on its own merits. 

[Damien]

32 minutes ago, Live after death said:

Trouble with Wigan fans is they utterly demand  success and won’t accept  anything other than winning trophies every single year as failure. This is somewhat true if Leeds fans recently or Man U or Liverpool. When any sports  team has had a period of huge success and dominance, fans want this to be the norm. But this is not always the case, see also Olympic cycling and Rowing where the last Olympics was not as much a success as previous 2-4 so its deemed failure, rather than judging it on its own merits. 

I don't agree with this. Yes some fans may want a team that's winning trophies, that's like all clubs, but the issues and fans anger are much deeper than that. Wigan have had winning teams before and not great average attendances, winning is only part of the equation. 

[Superb Chops]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

Some really informative answers from the fans forum here.

https://wiganwarriors.com/blog/2021/09/03/fans-forum-the-first-hour/

Thank you Damien. 

An interesting read for the sport generally.

Particularly in terms of the TV deal, opportunities for other broadcasters, Covid impact and loans, plus how much spare salary cap they have (and how much agents of half backs can push for in negotiations with Wigan).

[shrek]

Things with the stadium will settle down, Wigan Athletic seem to have themselves a very popular and well meaning chair, who's very much learning on the job.  I believe he got a little ahead of himself in releasing details of a new contract and "words have been said" for example, so he's bound to make a few more gaffes before he's done.

Whilst I'm sure there's plenty could be done with seats and stadium branding etc, I'm really not sure removing red seats is a big deal amongst the Latics faithful (away from the keyboard warriors!), sounds to me something of a populist move, but given Latics away strip is red and the Bahrain flag is red I'm not sure I see why you'd want to make the change other than for a few cheap likes on social.

Hopefully common sense will prevail and improvements can be made to the DW for the benefit of both clubs.