magic attendance?

[Damien]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

The host cities pay a fee to Super League for the right to host the event. When you get several cities bidding, like we have done recently, the value goes up and up.

But what is the value? Whenever people ask there are never facts and figures. It's all assumptions and opinions. When debating the merits of Magic the actual value is pretty integral to the conversation. 

[Tommygilf]

28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think the recent posts about alcohol is problematic for us.

For a while we have tried to focus on kids, with cheap and sometimes free tickets and it is clear there was plenty of success with that. You see more kids than many other sports. 

However we have seen a real shift over the last 10 to 15 years. We now play games at times which don't work for young kids - very few Saturday and Sunday family events to be found in SL these days. 

We then have our three main events (Cup Final, Grand Final and Magic) as out and out boozeathons. I enjoy a drink and often attend games having a few beers, but more and more if have had events ruined by absolutely hammered people. All three of those events have real challenges around Booze, particularly Magic and Grand Final. 

Whether we like it or not, we have a fan base from some pretty rough working class areas, and groups of men and women from some of those places with 10 pints in them can be intimidating, swear, messy and dangerous. 

They are managing this in cricket with family zones, and I really think every ground in RL should have that, either with no booze or a zero tolerance to drunks. 

I often hear that crowds can mix well and are friendly, but I think we overstate that. I've seen more violence at RL major events than many other sports in the UK. 

I genuinely think our actions over the last decade has seen a shift from family events, and that has seen lower numbers and edgier atmospheres. 

I think that's true of a lot of events to be fair, the 6 Nations is hardly a holy of holies (and is in fact usually a day when the toffs let their hair down), so I don't think we're unique. You and others have mentioned test match cricket etc too, and I forgot to even think about England football games and outdoor screenings.

I think from my experience we need both better stewarding at these events and better control of "areas". 

I don't mind a bit of spice at the Rugby, our sport basically thrives on a certain element of that with the parochialism, and it sets it aside from rather dull RU crowds etc. Once upon a time this may have been seen as "football lite", reflecting our clubs positions in towns and cities.

They shouldn't be near family areas but likewise family areas shouldn't be near them, there should be room to have both. In RL I fear that we have a tendency to assume that because, for example, there are kids in the south stand at Headingley, that therefore it is a "family stand". The two are sightly different.

To make sure no ones day is spoilt I'd hope all these are given their own areas.

[Scubby]

23 minutes ago, Damien said:

But what is the value? Whenever people ask there are never facts and figures. It's all assumptions and opinions. When debating the merits of Magic the actual value is pretty integral to the conversation. 

Many people seems to be doing it as a day trip now too, sodding off after their game has finished. Not quite the 2-night hotel stay and money spinner it could be.

[Dave T]

People need to stop questioning the existence of Magic Weekend. Some people who do this also complain about RL's lack of patience. 

Magic has been around for 15 years - it is an established part of the RL season and there is no reason for this discussion every year. 

We get around 60k, which is good, not spectacular, but really solid. We would be looking up to other sports for lesser crowds than that. 

I think we should always be looking at how to make it better, but that isn't through scrapping it or making it 9s or whatever. 

We really should put the discussion about whether Magic should exist to bed. 

[Scubby]

30 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think the recent posts about alcohol is problematic for us.

For a while we have tried to focus on kids, with cheap and sometimes free tickets and it is clear there was plenty of success with that. You see more kids than many other sports. 

However we have seen a real shift over the last 10 to 15 years. We now play games at times which don't work for young kids - very few Saturday and Sunday family events to be found in SL these days. 

We then have our three main events (Cup Final, Grand Final and Magic) as out and out boozeathons. I enjoy a drink and often attend games having a few beers, but more and more if have had events ruined by absolutely hammered people. All three of those events have real challenges around Booze, particularly Magic and Grand Final. 

Whether we like it or not, we have a fan base from some pretty rough working class areas, and groups of men and women from some of those places with 10 pints in them can be intimidating, swear, messy and dangerous. 

They are managing this in cricket with family zones, and I really think every ground in RL should have that, either with no booze or a zero tolerance to drunks. 

I often hear that crowds can mix well and are friendly, but I think we overstate that. I've seen more violence at RL major events than many other sports in the UK. 

I genuinely think our actions over the last decade has seen a shift from family events, and that has seen lower numbers and edgier atmospheres. 

I don't think this has changed too much over the years. I've been to cricket in the 1990s and Cup Finals in the 1980s where loads of people were pssed out of their heads. Pretty intimidating for a young kid to see.

The big difference is the move away from daytime kick offs for events. Magic finishing at 10pm is not good and the Grand Final is now a TV event in that 6pm to 9pm slot. Hopefully, we can use the RLWC for some mixed audiences and a family feel.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think that's true of a lot of events to be fair, the 6 Nations is hardly a holy of holies (and is in fact usually a day when the toffs let their hair down), so I don't think we're unique. You and others have mentioned test match cricket etc too, and I forgot to even think about England football games and outdoor screenings.

I think from my experience we need both better stewarding at these events and better control of "areas". 

I don't mind a bit of spice at the Rugby, our sport basically thrives on a certain element of that with the parochialism, and it sets it aside from rather dull RU crowds etc. Once upon a time this may have been seen as "football lite", reflecting our clubs positions in towns and cities.

They shouldn't be near family areas but likewise family areas shouldn't be near them, there should be room to have both. In RL I fear that we have a tendency to assume that because, for example, there are kids in the south stand at Headingley, that therefore it is a "family stand". The two are sightly different.

To make sure no ones day is spoilt I'd hope all these are given their own areas.

Yes, we aren't worse than any others, but I think there is a level of arrogance that we are a family sport who can mix and this is reflected in the levels of stewarding. I have seen some absolute disgraces - people sitting in their own vomit, passing out drunk, falling over barriers, causing fights, and usually these people are left in the ground, or not even addressed by stewards. 

I don't think we can ignore the fact that drinking habits are changing. When living and working in Edinburgh it really surprised me how many people have embraced the sober lifestyle. And I mean 18 to 25 year olds. 

I think segregation for families is a must, I wouldn't even consider attending some events as a family - and that is a real challenge when we describe ourselves as a family sport. 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I don't think this has changed too much over the years. I've been to cricket in the 1990s and Cup Finals in the 1980s where loads of people were pssed out of their heads. Pretty intimidating for a young kid to see.

The big difference is the move away from daytime kick offs for events. Magic finishing at 10pm is not good and the Grand Final is now a TV event in that 6pm to 9pm slot. Hopefully, we can use the RLWC for some mixed audiences and a family feel.

But the likes of cricket where they are all day sessions will still address this through alcohol free areas. We also shouldn't ignore the fact that football and Test cricket have bigger audiences and are OK with filling grounds with drunkards. We are bemoaning an aging fan base, but seemingly doing little to protect our family base.

I agree the scheduling is very problematic. 

IMHO RL does have to work harder to stand still. 

When I started in the 1980s you couldn't get alcohol in grounds. 

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

But the likes of cricket where they are all day sessions will still address this through alcohol free areas. We also shouldn't ignore the fact that football and Test cricket have bigger audiences and are OK with filling grounds with drunkards. We are bemoaning an aging fan base, but seemingly doing little to protect our family base.

I agree the scheduling is very problematic. 

IMHO RL does have to work harder to stand still. 

When I started in the 1980s you couldn't get alcohol in grounds. 

You could get partially high from the whiff of wintergreen as you walked past the main stand at Wilderspool though.

[Toby Chopra]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

People need to stop questioning the existence of Magic Weekend. Some people who do this also complain about RL's lack of patience. 

Magic has been around for 15 years - it is an established part of the RL season and there is no reason for this discussion every year. 

We get around 60k, which is good, not spectacular, but really solid. We would be looking up to other sports for lesser crowds than that. 

I think we should always be looking at how to make it better, but that isn't through scrapping it or making it 9s or whatever. 

We really should put the discussion about whether Magic should exist to bed. 

Indeed. In fact if we could now have 5 predictable years of a London CCF in early May, August BH Magic in Newcastle and October GF in Manchester, then we'd be doing ourselves a favour. 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Scubby said:

You could get partially high from the whiff of wintergreen as you walked past the main stand at Wilderspool though.

That is true

[Toby Chopra]

We absolutely need properly stewarded zones at major events, we're a bit behind the curve on this. The stadiums we use are big enough to do it, so let the lads have a drink at either end, but clear, sizable and well marshalled family/booze free zones in the middle must be there. 

It was instructive to me that during the Hundred, when they hit a patch of drunken rowdiness at a couple of the games, the authorities immediately started to hatch plans to eliminate it, and they're already starting from a more segregated standpoint. 

They're absolutely determined not to have their new competition be quickly branded as a boozathon.

[Damien]

But the difference is that RL has little control over the stewarding at major events as they don't own the likes of St James Park, Old Trafford and Wembley. In cricket where they own the grounds and have control so its easy to take decisive action. That's not to say individual clubs couldn't do more but even at that some clubs have their hands tied as they don't own the stadium.

[redjonn]

27 minutes ago, Damien said:

But the difference is that RL has little control over the stewarding at major events as they don't own the likes of St James Park, Old Trafford and Wembley. In cricket where they own the grounds and have control so its easy to take decisive action. That's not to say individual clubs couldn't do more but even at that some clubs have their hands tied as they don't own the stadium.

I guess where clubs could do more the money is the priority. I just despair when I have very drunken people around me, whom then go off during the game to get more beer (normally the extra large 2pinter plastic) and stagger back to their seats with beer swilling around them as to go between the seats.

It is one of the reasons I will stop going to games... might seem daft but if they don't care for me I won't care about the club....

and as a chuckle maybe -  on a dafter note the reason I stopped going to soccer in the late eighties and not gone since even if now better was because.... I was sick of having to have sugar in me tea... when I asked for tea it came straight out of a big teapot which had the sugar and milk in... that's how it is the person serving would say so tough...

Now that may seem daft but its the little things that finally break the camels back so to speak...  mind you I am a scouser and we tend to cut off our nose to spite our face...

[whatmichaelsays]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

People need to stop questioning the existence of Magic Weekend. Some people who do this also complain about RL's lack of patience. 

Magic has been around for 15 years - it is an established part of the RL season and there is no reason for this discussion every year. 

We get around 60k, which is good, not spectacular, but really solid. We would be looking up to other sports for lesser crowds than that. 

I think we should always be looking at how to make it better, but that isn't through scrapping it or making it 9s or whatever. 

We really should put the discussion about whether Magic should exist to bed. 

I agree that Magic definitely has a place and it should be kept, but I just wonder if the sport knows what that place is. 

If the event is simply an extra round of games with a ribbon tacked on, then that's not an inherently bad thing, but it does mean that the sport has to be realistic on what it can achieve. 

At the moment, I think it's run as sold as one thing, but then contorted to meet lots of other different aims and purposes and it misses the mark - which gives fuel to claims that it's a waste of an event that doesn't serve a purpose. If it's there to be an expansion tool, or as an event to engage non-RL audiences, the way you go about selling it probably needs to be different. 

[Josef K]

Most of these “One Can Van Damme’s” are gone after a couple of sips and are ready to take on anyone who doesn’t agree with them, or support their club.
Some people find that type of behaviour funny. Then there are the fan’s who will buy a pint and decide to throw it in the air, covering people with ale. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 05/09/2021 at 09:10, Just Browny said:

Easy to say 'move it around the country', but how many cities have both:

- 'draw' for visitors wanting a nice weekend and enough infrastructure to accommodate 25k+ incoming fans (sorry Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Middlesbrough)

- a large, modern stadium with sufficient comfort to make sitting there for a full day not complete misery for anyone over 5ft6 (sorry Liverpool, Leeds, Bristol)

Being optimistic, I can maybe think of Sheffield, Derby and maybe Brighton (a long trek from heartlands) as decent contenders, besides those we've already had and London.

Blackpool

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I agree that Magic definitely has a place and it should be kept, but I just wonder if the sport knows what that place is. 

If the event is simply an extra round of games with a ribbon tacked on, then that's not an inherently bad thing, but it does mean that the sport has to be realistic on what it can achieve. 

At the moment, I think it's run as sold as one thing, but then contorted to meet lots of other different aims and purposes and it misses the mark - which gives fuel to claims that it's a waste of an event that doesn't serve a purpose. If it's there to be an expansion tool, or as an event to engage non-RL audiences, the way you go about selling it probably needs to be different. 

As I say, I'd like us to do it better (along with a about a hundred other things), but even if Magic simply remains as it is, that's OK. 

[M j M]

Just now, Dave T said:

As I say, I'd like us to do it better (along with a about a hundred other things), but even if Magic simply remains as it is, that's OK. 

Quite. There's some stuff to tinker with around the edges and I expect there will be more stuff on around the ground and visibility in the city next year. But we have created this event from nothing and it is a good thing in its own right, there doesn't necessarily have to be some trajectory or narrative about it.

[Eddie]

3 hours ago, M j M said:

Quite. There's some stuff to tinker with around the edges and I expect there will be more stuff on around the ground and visibility in the city next year. But we have created this event from nothing and it is a good thing in its own right, there doesn't necessarily have to be some trajectory or narrative about it.

Indeed, what do people expect, St James’ Park to be full to the rafters for every game? 

[John Rhino]

On 05/09/2021 at 07:50, Newcastle Thunder said:

Don’t fix what isn’t broken

That was attempted in 2019 and look what happened 

Newcastle just works 

Agreed. Terrific ground with good leg room (are you listening Anfield) and a fabulous part of the country to visit. We always stay in Durham and have a great time 

[John Rhino]

18 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

It isn't the stadium that is really the issue , it's Newcastle itself , it's a party , student , stag and hen venue , our hotel the jury was full of stag parties , the receptionist was telling a group of fans as I was waiting on Saturday , our floor had loads , heard them coming in really late on both nights 

And again the cost , it makes Blackpool look cheap 

Stay in Durham like we do. Lovely tranquil place, lots to see, great food and loads of top class accommodation at all prices.

You can still have a **** up after the games and get the last train home. Its not far 

[John Rhino]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

But what is the value? Whenever people ask there are never facts and figures. It's all assumptions and opinions. When debating the merits of Magic the actual value is pretty integral to the conversation. 

I can see why the RFL don't tell us and rightly so. 

If the competing cities knew what was bid last year then we'd never increase the revenue 

[GUBRATS]

8 hours ago, Scubby said:

Many people seems to be doing it as a day trip now too, sodding off after their game has finished. Not quite the 2-night hotel stay and money spinner it could be.

Cost 

[DimmestStar]

Way back in 2007 when Hull KR were promoted I decided that travelling to Cardiff to watch Rovers v Hull was ridiculous and prohibitively expensive so I watched on TV.

It also felt very unfair at the time that a newly promoted team like Rovers had to play an extra fixture against an established SL team like Hull. As it happened we beat them anyway but even so if things hadn't gone well the magic 'loop' fixture could have relegated us.

Probably that wouldn't have bothered anybody after all why would the other clubs care?

Pretty much every year Hull or Rovers or both get the evening slot on a Sunday because the RFL know they can take advantage. You'd think the big finale might be Saints Wigan or Leeds but no. Let's give the fans from Humberside the short straw they'll turn up anyway. 

The magic weekend is good for those who want a boozy weekend with a bit of rugby thrown in. Which is about 5,000 fans per club, way less than the average Super League attendance.

[John Rhino]

8 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

Indeed. In fact if we could now have 5 predictable years of a London CCF in early May, August BH Magic in Newcastle and October GF in Manchester, then we'd be doing ourselves a favour. 

Exactly this