Funding cuts could mean the end for Coventry Bears

[gingerjon]

26 minutes ago, Jeff Stein said:

The London League and Southern Conference finals are on at 4:30 and 6:30 this Saturday at Rosslyn Park. Apart from the fixtures being shown in League Express I know nothing else and I  can't find any other information online (including why the odd Times and whether admission is being charged). 

This may be helpful:

https://www.facebook.com/londonchargersrl/posts/2165666656907258

 

[iffleyox]

1 hour ago, Ivarr the Boneless said:

As an ex Oxford RL season ticket holder I'd be stunned if they returned for any upgraded Conference South.

One of the reasons they packed up, not the only one, was they believed League One would fold within five years and the owners weren't willing to spend lots of money trying to turn the club around knowing they wouldn't have time to make that money back.

Those at the top at Oxford were generally less than impressed by the RFL's handling of them. There's surely no chance of them stepping back in.

 

 

One day someone will write the article that needs to be written abut the end of Oxford RL. I'm not naive, there were flaws with what they were trying to do and how they were trying to do it, but that was a good board (with senior RL experience), with money, and (seemingly without anyone registering it) they pulled the plug for political as much as financial reasons.

IMO the Oxford debacle gets written off too easily as 'expansion club goes pop, like everyone always expected' whereas it was (IMO) more like 'expansion club owners take their ball home after losing faith in the future of the sport'

The message still hasn't got through I don't think.

One day....

 

 

[Damien]

39 minutes ago, Derwent said:

Isn't that the case if they stay semi-pro on the proposed funding ? Players will be expected to do the same travelling for little more than beer money. If the funding is £20k and income from other means is similar then how do they pay a squad of 24/25 players plus coaching staff etc as well as meet all other costs of staging games such as insurance, stadium costs etc ? The players will be on absolute peanuts and a lot of them will just pack in.

I believe so yes. However I don't agree with the proposed cuts to that level either.

[OriginalMrC]

26 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

One day someone will write the article that needs to be written abut the end of Oxford RL. I'm not naive, there were flaws with what they were trying to do and how they were trying to do it, but that was a good board (with senior RL experience), with money, and (seemingly without anyone registering it) they pulled the plug for political as much as financial reasons.

IMO the Oxford debacle gets written off too easily as 'expansion club goes pop, like everyone always expected' whereas it was (IMO) more like 'expansion club owners take their ball home after losing faith in the future of the sport'

The message still hasn't got through I don't think.

One day....

 

 

I think to be honest it wasn't helpful from the beginning to label Oxford, All Golds, Northampton (ahem), Hemel and Coventry as expansion clubs. That suggests some additional support but there was none. Sink or swim was the approach and only one club remains. If you are going to expand the sport it has to be done with a plan and proper support. These clubs were at a disadvantage from the start. The RFL have known Coventry's business model from the start so expecting the club to suddenly take a huge cut along with all the other disadvantages it faces is ridiculous. 

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, zylya said:

The RFL have been assigned an amount which they can distribute. The understanding, based on this topic, is that they're cutting around £50,000 from League 1. That's a decision, and that's what I'm criticising. Is it a tough decision? Yes - but I disagree with the one they've made and have outlined my reasons.

Additionally, SL & RFL haven't done enough to keep the commercial income high - a huge drop in funding can hardly be blamed on the League 1 clubs yet they're facing an 80% reduction on an overall reduction of about 37.5% (£40m - £25m). And even if we take the previous Sky deal as overpriced and this one as more realistic to the value of SL, there's still the real question of why the RFL hasn't done things like develop the international game or create some other source(s) of revenue to fill this gap.

The whole "difficult decisions" is a cop out - it's chickens coming home to roost.

You cannot absolve lower league clubs of any blame for not driving enough income to survive. 

I'm afraid the bottom of the Pro pyramid does not get a free pass here. Particularly when this has been on the cards for around 3 years. 

[zylya]

36 minutes ago, Dave T said:

You cannot absolve lower league clubs of any blame for not driving enough income to survive. 

I'm afraid the bottom of the Pro pyramid does not get a free pass here. Particularly when this has been on the cards for around 3 years. 

Some of the League 1 clubs in the Heartlands have had around a hundred years to drive the revenues required... Coventry has been in the league since 2015, so six years as a semi-professional team which includes a year of COVID.

If you don't think League 1 is worth the money it's currently costing, then just say that. Either you think that League 1 is worth the £750,000 that it's getting in central funding or you don't. Which is it?

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, zylya said:

Some of the League 1 clubs in the Heartlands have had around a hundred years to drive the revenues required... Coventry has been in the league since 2015, so six years as a semi-professional team which includes a year of COVID.

If you don't think League 1 is worth the money it's currently costing, then just say that. Either you think that League 1 is worth the £750,000 that it's getting in central funding or you don't. Which is it?

I think all our clubs are worthy of investment. I don't think any of them deserve a pay cut, but Sky are paying less and the game hasn't filled that gap. 

You obviously don't think Championship clubs are worth their money as you just want to rob Peter to pay Paul. These things can't be looked at in isolation. 

But on the actual point of Coventry, if we went down a means tested route, they would score well in my eyes and be a high priority for funding. 

[OriginalMrC]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

You cannot absolve lower league clubs of any blame for not driving enough income to survive. 

I'm afraid the bottom of the Pro pyramid does not get a free pass here. Particularly when this has been on the cards for around 3 years. 

The same could be said for all clubs. As for clubs driving income to survive many have been around for decades and still rely on a director or directors putting money in. We've seen time and time again these clubs getting into financial difficulty as soon as the directors stop putting money in. I think it's reasonable that a new club who has only been in the league for 6 years should retain its funding as it hasn't had long enough to establish itself. The timing here is also off the back of Covid which has reduced the clubs revenue and increased its costs significantly. 

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

The same could be said for all clubs. As for clubs driving income to survive many have been around for decades and still rely on a director or directors putting money in. We've seen time and time again these clubs getting into financial difficulty as soon as the directors stop putting money in. I think it's reasonable that a new club who has only been in the league for 6 years should retain its funding as it hasn't had long enough to establish itself. The timing here is also off the back of Covid which has reduced the clubs revenue and increased its costs significantly. 

The same is being said of all clubs. SL clubs get criticised by everyone and everybody shares the failures of the game overall. 

I'm not sure I could support a reduction to every club in the game apart from Coventry tbh. 

[OriginalMrC]

27 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

 

I can probably give this a better attempt than most... 

According to https://www.coventrybears.com/team, their 1st Team squad has 3 of 23 players with hometowns in the Midlands. One of these, the youngest at age 23, is a Coventry Bears junior (along with the Midlands Regional Academy - this is significant). One of these is age 29 and had played no RL previously, only RU, so is new to the game as a result of Cov. One of these is age 27 and had played community RL in the Midlands for 3 teams, and semi-pro for 2 previous teams. 

The Midlands Regional Academy is significant because typically players would play there for 4 years (i.e. u15s - u18s), training multiple times a week, playing matches at a fairly high standard and essentially getting treated like any professional club's academy. Probably up until 2018-19 this often led to lads finishing and going to play for Coventry. Unfortunately, nobody wanted to fund the MRA after the quality dropped following the big drop in participation in the community game underpinning it. This led to the academy stopping a couple of years ago, and with it a reasonable source of players for Cov gone. 

There was a Midlands u16s community rep team in 2019 that played a City of Hull Development team and there were 2 players from Cov Juniors, broadly comparable with other teams such as Wolfhunt, Outlaws, NEW Ravens, Telford etc, which doesn't suggest vastly greater numbers of players in Coventry than elsewhere. One of these is now playing for Worcester Jaguars, having gone through Mercian Development Academy. The other is playing for Leamington Royals, as Coventry have nothing beyond u16s. 

In 2015 and 2016 Coventry ran a second team in Conference League South, potentially bringing new players into the game. Again a reasonable source of players for this team was Midlands Regional Academy players. This 2nd team was strong in 2015, weak in 2016 and then when the CLS league stopped, Coventry ceased running a second team, so no increase in participation here. 

Coventry have also had a link with Coventry Uni RL at times so arguably a new source of players. The year before Cov entered League 1, they came 1st in the Midlands 1 uni league. Since Cov entered League 1, they have come: 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 5th, so they haven't gotten noticeably stronger and they haven't introduced a 2nd Team so no notable increase in participation either.  

The 3 satellite clubs set up obviously will increase participation, however this is funded by a RLWC2021 grant, not the League 1 money, so isn't contingent on Cov getting £80k from the RFL.

So the new players aren't showing up in their first team squad, nor the university team, they haven't ran a second team since 2016, they lose any players past u16s and the 3 satellite clubs have come about through RLWC2021 funding rather than League 1 funding. They also ran juniors at several age groups before they entered League 1. Specifically where are these new players resulting from Coventry's League 1 status? 

Well that's quite some effort it must have taken you some time. To be honest I don't have the time to debunk all the inaccuracies in this post. I do wonder what your angle is? Several of your posts have been designed to shed the Bears in a bad light. All I can say is that a lot of what you have said is speculation, inaccurate or untrue. 

Just to take an example of the players in first team squad you've looked at their home town. Yes some were born elsewhere and some moved to the midlands relatively recently but over well over half the squad are based in the midlands. I think we can assume that a lot of these lads might now be playing RL if they weren't given an opportunity at the Bears. Our all time record try scorer is a brummie, we've got players like Josh Dunne who'd played in the Irish provincial set up but never played RL, we've got Peter Ryan Irish born and bred who is coming up to 50 appearances in league 1. To add to this I haven't even mentioned the various players who got an opportunity at the Bears and are playing at a higher level. 

Some of the rest of the things here is completely wrong and as I said I can't be bothered to go through your whole post and tell you where your wrong. All I can say is that anyone reading it should take it with a very large pinch of salt. 

[bowes]

10 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

I've heard this suggestion before and I'm sorry it just won't work. There is just not the clubs to make it work. Hemel are happy where they are, All Golds talk a good game but didn't even finish their season this year, Oxford no longer exist, and South Wales no longer exist. Its pointless even thinking about it until the Southern conference manages to grow further and clubs finish a full season. 

The Eastern Division of the CLS looks like a reasonably decent league (not a high enough standard for Coventry, but a worthwhile league in its own right), though the top three teams are a lot stronger than the others.

I'd be surprised if the Western Division can carry on (despite strong commitment by Swindon St George and Devon Sharks) as it is down to four teams and two of them forfeited multiple matches.

[zylya]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think all our clubs are worthy of investment. I don't think any of them deserve a pay cut, but Sky are paying less and the game hasn't filled that gap. 

You obviously don't think Championship clubs are worth their money as you just want to rob Peter to pay Paul. These things can't be looked at in isolation. 

But on the actual point of Coventry, if we went down a means tested route, they would score well in my eyes and be a high priority for funding. 

I agree that none of the clubs, in an ideal world, would be dealing with less funding going forward. I think League 1 represents fantastic value for money, whereas I think SL and the Championship offer lower vfm. Part of that is because the actual cost of League 1 is so low as an overall figure. 1.875% of the previous SL TV deal if all figures are correct i.e. £750,000 for league 1 on a £40 million TV deal - for comparison, if they retained the same percentage on the lower figure, each club would receive just over £45,000 rather than the 0.8% they'd be getting IF the £20,000 per year figure is correct - which would be easier for clubs to manage and would be a proportionate decrease.

[Dave T]

33 minutes ago, zylya said:

I agree that none of the clubs, in an ideal world, would be dealing with less funding going forward. I think League 1 represents fantastic value for money, whereas I think SL and the Championship offer lower vfm. Part of that is because the actual cost of League 1 is so low as an overall figure. 1.875% of the previous SL TV deal if all figures are correct i.e. £750,000 for league 1 on a £40 million TV deal - for comparison, if they retained the same percentage on the lower figure, each club would receive just over £45,000 rather than the 0.8% they'd be getting IF the £20,000 per year figure is correct - which would be easier for clubs to manage and would be a proportionate decrease.

Can't argue with that

[del capo]

15 hours ago, Dave T said:

The same is being said of all clubs. SL clubs get criticised by everyone and everybody shares the failures of the game overall. 

I'm not sure I could support a reduction to every club in the game apart from Coventry tbh. 

The harsh reality is that finances are grim throughout the game.

Talk of restructure to 10  x 2 for SL is miles off when the RFL are left with  only £2m outside of the current SL to finance the rest of the pro / semi pro clubs. The finance gaps will never  be closed ( Ken Davey's spoken aim ) on that basis, with most League 1 left in a dreadful position.

Can supporting say Coventry to the expense of others be justified ? Probably not.

Is there a case for supporting League 1 more widely? Probably yes if those clubs have sustainable business plans in place.

But where will the money come from ?

The new working group recently launched has in fact it's priority task as just that ( whatever else you might read ).

And whilst all the 'shirt ripping' is going on on here spare a thought for the Community game. In the 2018 season NCL's 12 Premier sides travelled 24539 miles between them ( Kells and West Hull had almost 3k each ). A coach hire is typically £400- £650. This year not a penny in subsidy from the RFL and  from January Tier 4 and 5 between them will pay the RFL membership fees of approx £400k  yearly to help keep the  existing show on the road

And as for going amateur for League 1 that is unlikely.  Their business model  simply cannot match those of the amateur game whose structures are  more akin to those of RU. ( clubhouses , bars .multiple teams and large memberships etc )..

 I just looked at the Bears latest accounts ( and they are very well run). They  made a profit of £3k - take the RFL subsidy off them and where would they be ?   Most Northern Tier 4 clubs all have much  larger turnovers......

So yes finances are grim - very grim. Not just Up North.!.... And answers are needed urgently.

[Spidey]

One thing about the NCL travel grant is that its a recent thing (maybe last 10 years or so) it never used to be a thing and the clubs got on with it.  They were all aware it was going and hopefully they have planned accordingly, they all probably had more notice than this cut to League 1 mind...

[Quinskolar]

About time that Coventry and Skolars broke away and formed the Southern Rugby League. I can't remember who did it before  in 1895 but it was  a big success! Get some TV people interested, play in the summer invite other teams and the RFL might just be embarrassed, what other alternative is there for these clubs and fans of these two teams? 

[EssexRL]

20 minutes ago, Quinskolar said:

About time that Coventry and Skolars broke away and formed the Southern Rugby League. I can't remember who did it before  in 1895 but it was  a big success! Get some TV people interested, play in the summer invite other teams and the RFL might just be embarrassed, what other alternative is there for these clubs and fans of these two teams? 

I know you're being tongue in cheek but I keep thinking maybe something different and better will emerge from the mess that seems to be unfolding. The idea of throwing away the great work both clubs are doing trying to expand the game (for nearly a quarter of a century in Skolars case) and the potential they represent is crazy but all too likely. The sport essentially did it with Oxford and All Golds.

[JM2010]

48 minutes ago, Quinskolar said:

About time that Coventry and Skolars broke away and formed the Southern Rugby League. I can't remember who did it before  in 1895 but it was  a big success! Get some TV people interested, play in the summer invite other teams and the RFL might just be embarrassed, what other alternative is there for these clubs and fans of these two teams? 

I'd like to see League 1 continue with enough funding for the clubs, however, I don't think that's going to happen.

Underneath that I think any southern expansion should be focused on the Southern Conference for any ambitious clubs to ply their trade until they are ready to step up to League 1. Unfortunately that would require investment which isn't likely to happen.

 

[OriginalMrC]

 

[Toby Chopra]

2 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

 

Intruiging. A place in the 2x10s perhaps? 

[OriginalMrC]

10 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Intruiging. A place in the 2x10s perhaps? 

Early days but I expect there'll be big plans to grow RL in the midlands. 

[Eddie]

4 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

Early days but I expect there'll be big plans to grow RL in the midlands. 

That’s whetted my appetite. Any idea when something might be announced? 

[OriginalMrC]

16 minutes ago, Eddie said:

That’s whetted my appetite. Any idea when something might be announced? 

To be fair I don't know much so we'll have to wait and see. All I know is Alan has had long term plans to take the next step for the Bears. The plus side of the funding issue is it may have speeded things up. Hopefully some positive news in the coming weeks and months 

[del capo]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

That’s whetted my appetite. Any idea when something might be announced? 

Huddersfield take over  / feeder club /  reserves  / ' partnership ' ( with funding ) ?

If so wont be the last and could be a way of saving League 1.

[Toby Chopra]

12 hours ago, del capo said:

Huddersfield take over  / feeder club /  reserves  / ' partnership ' ( with funding ) ?

If so wont be the last and could be a way of saving League 1.

I think you've hit on something here. 

Critics have said "what's 50k to a Supergreed club to keeping L1 afloat"?

Well, rather than just giving the L1 clubs the money with nothing guaranteed in return, clubs like Coventry with proven ability to develop players from scratch may well find that a bigger club will contribute in return for a player development relationship. 

Very common in other sports around the world.