Promotion & Relegation/Licencing hybrid system

[sweaty craiq]

Championship clubs sales pitch to investor “ We need about £1m a season off you, that way we can build our own FT squad for 4 years time when we might get into SL if our first 2 years of building work out” Investor “look I am only interested in being involved with a club at the top table, my family/business don’t want second rate sport to throw millions at, call again when your in SL or we can win a spot in a year”

[Damien]

Just now, JAG said:

Even in that scenario the 4 teams promoted to super league wouldn't necessarily be the same four to get relegated again. If you have a scenario where recent champions can get relegated then you already have an ultra competitive awesome competition. 

 

Who would invest in Salford if they were struggling one season and they could get relegated by the end of it anyway? or the year after that? and the year after that? 

 

In the 25 years of summer rugby league who has made it from League one to Super League besides Toronto Wolfpack? Whom we then threw out as soon as they did.

They would be strong favourites, as now, as they start off many metres behind on the starting line. This proposal does not change that.

I said financially, as happens all too often in RL. Salford could be safe and having financial issues halfway through. This has happened to clubs before, unfortunately. Or an investor could take over at the end of the season and invest and have time to put things right without carrying 3 tears of baggage of a previous administration. Even if they were relegated they could go back up the following year. You are saying they have to wait 4. It's pretty easy to see the possible issues.

Huddersfield went from division 3 as it was then to Super League in about 5 years. It is more than possible to sides with the right backing.

[JAG]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

They would be strong favourites, as now, as they start off many metres behind on the starting line. This proposal does not change that.

I said financially, as happens all too often in RL. Salford could be safe and having financial issues halfway through. This has happened to clubs before, unfortunately. Or an investor could take over at the end of the season and invest and have time to put things right without carrying 3 tears of baggage of a previous administration. Even if they were relegated they could go back up the following year. You are saying they have to wait 4. It's pretty easy to see the possible issues.

Huddersfield went from division 3 as it was then to Super League in about 5 years. It is more than possible to sides with the right backing.

Huddersfield were in Division 3 in 1993 years before the start of Super League. "In 1998, due to the collapse of Paris St Germain the club was promoted to Super League despite only finishing second in the second division." from the Huddersfield Giants Wikipedia page but I'm not here to have an argument.

 

They might very well be favourites but it would be in their hands and they wouldn't have everything stacked against them. Imagine as a newly promoted club being able to sign a player for 2,3 or even 4 years. It's not just stability to the competition but to the clubs themselves it would end the boom and bust approach to just surviving in Super League.

 

A team like Salford could have that bad year financially and not face the immediate threat of relegation becasue it's wouldn't be there. They would have a chance to rebuild and maintain their Super League status.

[Barley Mow]

So in this proposal, a team could (in theory at least) win the Super League grand final and get relegated in the same season.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

25 minutes ago, JAG said:

The Era League would take care of that, you'd already know who the best teams/most appropriate fro promotion were. Also a team could have one great season and fall from grace quite quickly. Many teams go through peaks and valleys financially speaking. The idea is to reward the most consistent clubs.

These games unless I'm understanding it wrong have a Million Pound Game vibe to them which a lot of people want to avoid. Imagine losing a game that makes the last four years count for absolutely nothing, I know in sport sometimes you can't avoid those scenarios but to Championship RL clubs that to me is harsh.

Sky like the Play Offs/Grand Final/Million Pound Game, it’s all they show of the Championship and we need all the tv money we can get.

[JAG]

17 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Championship clubs sales pitch to investor “ We need about £1m a season off you, that way we can build our own FT squad for 4 years time when we might get into SL if our first 2 years of building work out” Investor “look I am only interested in being involved with a club at the top table, my family/business don’t want second rate sport to throw millions at, call again when your in SL or we can win a spot in a year”

Club sales pitch "We need £1m a season from you."

Investor "Are you in Super League?"

Club "Not right now but we will be next year and we will be there for the next 4 years."

Investor "How can you be so sure?"

Club "We're already guaranteed promotion as being one of the most successful clubs in the Championship over the last four years. Which guarantees us Super League status next season and for a minimum of four years."

Investor "Interesting."

[JAG]

2 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

So in this proposal, a team could (in theory at least) win the Super League grand final and get relegated in the same season.

Yes and if that ever were to happen you'd already have one of the most competitive, intriguing, awesome competitions ever in all sport.

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, JAG said:

Huddersfield were in Division 3 in 1993 years before the start of Super League. "In 1998, due to the collapse of Paris St Germain the club was promoted to Super League despite only finishing second in the second division." from the Huddersfield Giants Wikipedia page but I'm not here to have an argument.

 

They might very well be favourites but it would be in their hands and they wouldn't have everything stacked against them. Imagine as a newly promoted club being able to sign a player for 2,3 or even 4 years. It's not just stability to the competition but to the clubs themselves it would end the boom and bust approach to just surviving in Super League.

 

A team like Salford could have that bad year financially and not face the immediate threat of relegation becasue it's wouldn't be there. They would have a chance to rebuild and maintain their Super League status.

So they went from division 3 to Super League which was your question. There is literally nothing to argue as it is a fact.

I'm not really interested in going round in circles arguing hypothetical and scenarios. We all know what has happened in the past and how it would play out under a system like this.

As I said I understand the logic and what it tries to achieve but for me it completely misses the problems and if anything makes things worse.

 

[JAG]

3 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Sky like the Play Offs/Grand Final/Million Pound Game, it’s all they show of the Championship and we need all the tv money we can get.

They's still have all them just minus a MPG. There would be a game where a team would win their Era/legacy league outright, like an extra league leaders trophy only this one would have the added prestige of only being awarded every 4 years. Imagine a Grand Final that also decided the Era league as well. Incredibly small chance of that happening but not impossible.

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, JAG said:

Club sales pitch "We need £1m a season from you."

Investor "Are you in Super League?"

Club "Not right now but we will be next year and we will be there for the next 4 years."

Investor "How can you be so sure?"

Club "We're already guaranteed promotion as being one of the most successful clubs in the Championship over the last four years. Which guarantees us Super League status next season and for a minimum of four years."

Investor "Interesting."

Sounds like a complete waste of a season and 12 teams with absolutely nothing to play for then.

[JAG]

Just now, Damien said:

So they went from division 3 to Super League which was your question. There is literally nothing to argue as it is a fact.

I'm not really interested in going round in circles arguing hypothetical and scenarios. We all know what has happened in the past and how it would play out under a system like this.

As I said I understand the logic and what it tries to achieve but for me it completely misses the problems and if anything makes things worse.

 

I appreciate your input. I think it would help the sport in many more ways than it could harm it. It's not the silver bullet to end all of RL's woes.

[JAG]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Sounds like a complete waste of a season and 12 teams with absolutely nothing to play for then.

Who would have nothing to play for? You'd still have a league to win and a Era/legacy league to win outright.

[JAG]

40 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

3 teams were unbeaten in 2020 one won the application to help out SL. 2019 was dominated by TW, nobody with a brain was going to throw money at competing with them but somebody would come second.

your system is backward and is licensing, in 2013 the Championship averaged 1100 when it had nothing to play for, it is now more than double that for a regular non covid season.

Yeah, it's a hybrid, a compromise. Keeps stability that licensing produces but also keeps the peril of P&R which should be always be decided on the pitch.

[JAG]

1 hour ago, Just Browny said:

Definitely not the worst idea we've had on here. It attempts to reward on field performance and gives teams a bit of a platform. Even the idea of four years without a structure change in RL is inviting.

I would definitely try to simplify it. Maybe for finishing 12th in a season you get 12 points and for finishing first you get 1 point, and the team(s) with the most points after four years goes down? 

That's even better or vise versa 12 points for finishing 1st, 1 point for finishing last. I just wanted to recognise play-offs and grand final victories.

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, JAG said:

Who would have nothing to play for? You'd still have a league to win and a Era/legacy league to win outright.

And that matters in a system like this? Yes the kudos may be nice but it will see teams coast because things are inevitable. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the majority of teams have nothing to play for come year 4, year 3 even. Why would a Leigh spend one penny than the bare minimum to be competitive in SL when they know they are going down. Much better to pocket that £1.8 million and invest it in the Championship to go back up. Have 2 or 3 teams doing that and the league becomes a farce. Similarly clubs guaranteed of promotion, who will be releasing players anyway, will save it all for Super League and not waste a penny more than they have to. Club chairmen can be very pragmatic when money is at stake.

[Gerrumonside ref]

I can see its merits but while we are trying to get more people onboard to follow the sport I think we need a simple and recognisable format.

It seems obvious but we need something that people can quickly look at and understand.

I also think it’s continuity in sport that breeds tradition and prestige rather than too much tinkering.

[sweaty craiq]

33 minutes ago, JAG said:

Club sales pitch "We need £1m a season from you."

Investor "Are you in Super League?"

Club "Not right now but we will be next year and we will be there for the next 4 years."

Investor "How can you be so sure?"

Club "We're already guaranteed promotion as being one of the most successful clubs in the Championship over the last four years. Which guarantees us Super League status next season and for a minimum of four years."

Investor "Interesting."

Club sales pitch '' We believe this is why £1m next season will see us in SL - FT Squad, better players etc - obviously this is sport, and like your business there are no guarantees but this gives us every chance and more than the vast majority - wouldn't it be great for your family to be associated with that''

Investor '' so £1m for 1 year and we decide whats next at the end of the season''

Club '' yes thats correct and in SL we will spend the full cap by adding to our already strong FT squad, your extra £1m will allow us to bring in a couple of elite players that we will make sure are linked to your business and its investment so that we can compete and continue to build''

Investor '' Brilliant, will have some of that''

[JAG]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

And that matters in a system like this? Yes the kudos may be nice but it will see teams coast because things are inevitable. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the majority of teams have nothing to play for come year 4, year 3 even. Why would a Leigh spend one penny than the bare minimum to be competitive in SL when they know they are going down. Much better to pocket that £1.8 million and invest it in the Championship to go back up. Have 2 or 3 teams doing that and the league becomes a farce. Similarly clubs guaranteed of promotion, who will be releasing players anyway, will save it all for Super League and not waste a penny more than they have to. Club chairmen can be very pragmatic when money is at stake.

Yeah St Helens don't stop trying to win Super League once they know they're safe. Neither would Featherstone or Toulouse stop trying to win the Championship once they knew they were promoted to SL.

The idea is you have time to plan properly for which ever eventuality you might be facing. Clubs in precarious situations would rather plan for relegation/promotion weeks or months in advance rather than the last day of the season. 

Yes a team like Leigh might during the 4th season realise they are relegated but at least they'd have the chance to get there house in order for the next season than have players losing livelihoods over a weekend or clubs going bust through sudden shock loss of revenue.

[sweaty craiq]

26 minutes ago, JAG said:

Yeah, it's a hybrid, a compromise. Keeps stability that licensing produces but also keeps the peril of P&R which should be always be decided on the pitch.

Compromise doesn't work, strong vision and leadership does - no business goes forward by losing its base

[JAG]

2 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Club sales pitch '' We believe this is why £1m next season will see us in SL - FT Squad, better players etc - obviously this is sport, and like your business there are no guarantees but this gives us every chance and more than the vast majority - wouldn't it be great for your family to be associated with that''

Investor '' so £1m for 1 year and we decide whats next at the end of the season''

Club '' yes thats correct and in SL we will spend the full cap by adding to our already strong FT squad, your extra £1m will allow us to bring in a couple of elite players that we will make sure are linked to your business and its investment so that we can compete and continue to build''

Investor '' Brilliant, will have some of that''

I don't see how that conversation wouldn't happen with this system in place.

[JAG]

1 minute ago, sweaty craiq said:

Compromise doesn't work, strong vision and leadership does - no business goes forward by losing its base

How does this proposal lose RL it's base?

[Damien]

41 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Compromise doesn't work, strong vision and leadership does - no business goes forward by losing its base

If there's one thing the game should have realised by now it's this.

[Moomintroll]

A couple of Latin American football leagues have used a similar system to what is being proposed, though I think their reasoning behind it was to protect the bigger clubs from relegation, should they have one poor season. 

 

EDIT: one is Argentina, but it is over a three season period, using an average points per game system.

However, there is still p&r every season, so a team promoted at the end of the previous campaign only has their points from the current season taken into account. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Moomintroll

[JAG]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

If there's one thing the game should have realised by now it's this.

The game is already losing it's base. If there's no mobility between the leagues the sport stagnates. One up-One down P&R gives almost no hope to the promoted team of staying up because at the moment the gulf between the leagues is so large meanwhile clubs in SL only have to worry about not finishing last, it makes for a poorer competition.

[JAG]

1 hour ago, Moomintroll said:

A couple of Latin American football leagues have used a similar system to what is being proposed, though I think their reasoning behind it was to protect the bigger clubs from relegation, should they have one poor season. 

 

EDIT: one is Argentina, but it is over a three season period, using an average points per game system.

However, there is still p&r every season, so a team promoted at the end of the previous campaign only has their points from the current season taken into account. 

I didn't know that. It makes sense, it wasn't so long ago Leeds had a shocking season. It would have been a hammer blow to the sport if they got relegated for one bad season yet consistently poor performing teams retained their SL status.