Promotion & Relegation/Licencing hybrid system

[JAG]

On 30/04/2022 at 19:36, Jughead said:

Each of the existing eleven clubs who’ve competed in Super League for more than one season have finished in the top six between the seasons 2011-2021 and nine of those have played in a Challenge Cup Final in the last nine or ten finals, which could soon be ten if Huddersfield beat Hull KR in the semi. 

There will come a time, most likely in the time period that you suggest where teams will have nothing to play for in a system where promotion and relegation exists, we do not have to have something riding on every fixture. Other sports don’t and sections of our game seem hung up on this matter. 

There’s an argument also that promotion and relegation could well exist in a system where the professional clubs are ring-fenced but that’s getting far to into make believe land for a Saturday night. 

You've highlighted one of the main issues of with one up one down P&R. SL clubs can be successful providing the baptism of fire that is their first season. London, Toronto, Leigh and now Toulouse are all examples of what could have been if just given a little more time.

The era league system provides both security and peril for SL clubs. The fact that relegation is determined by a league standing made up of 4 years of results means every game truly matters. If you're far from the play-offs one year it's still in your clubs best interests to compete as ultimately their long term future depends on it.

[Jughead]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

You've highlighted one of the main issues of with one up one down P&R. SL clubs can be successful providing the baptism of fire that is their first season. London, Toronto, Leigh and now Toulouse are all examples of what could have been if just given a little more time.

The era league system provides both security and peril for SL clubs. The fact that relegation is determined by a league standing made up of 4 years of results means every game truly matters. If you're far from the play-offs one year it's still in your clubs best interests to compete as ultimately their long term future depends on it.

Your idea still relegates teams, stunting their growth. 

[JAG]

38 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Your idea still relegates teams, stunting their growth. 

And licensing ring fences the SL. 

This model can expand or contract the number of team in SL if so desired without the need for a 'back to the drawing board' restructure. It's all about creating successful, sustainable clubs with long term thinking and aspirations. Imagine a SL of 12 teams with 4,5 or maybe even 6 Championship teams with SL ambitions fighting for promotion.

Right now there's an arms race between Leigh and Featherstone to create a Grand Final winning team to get promoted. What will happen to the team that doesn't get promoted? We've witnessed the temperamental nature of Derek Beaumont before and how long can Featherstone maintain being bridesmaids for? Now imagine if Leigh, Featherstone, York and Toulouse all went up in the same year and were exempt from relegation for 4 years?

[JAG]

So at this stage of the season we have one of the most promising clubs to have ever been promoted to SL at the bottom of the league, while one of the more successful and high profile clubs have fallen into territory where relegation is a real threat.

How does one up one down P/R system help either of these clubs should their worst fears be realised?

The hybrid system I propose would protect both clubs short term future while not completely dis-regarding their poor performances this season.

It's the best of both worlds (Franchising & P/R) it's fair to every club in SL and Championship and rewards sustainable club growth.

[David Dockhouse Host]

Sadly it seams more likely we will go to two leagues of 10 thank expand to 14.

I would only like this if the top leagues loop fixtures were against SL2

[The Blues Ox]

Go to two leagues of 10 and all I can see is eventually TV deal gets smaller and all the money goes to the top tier SL teams and then the next tier end up going mostly part time because of a lack of funding and we continue with the great Rugby League race to the bottom.

[Jughead]

2 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Sadly it seams more likely we will go to two leagues of 10 thank expand to 14.

I would only like this if the top leagues loop fixtures were against SL2

I can’t comprehend why sections of rugby league’s fanbase want cross-division games putting fully professional sides against (largely) part-time opposition. It’s a bit small time, in my opinion. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Jughead

[Toby Chopra]

2 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

Go to two leagues of 10 and all I can see is eventually TV deal gets smaller and all the money goes to the top tier SL teams and then the next tier end up going mostly part time because of a lack of funding and we continue with the great Rugby League race to the bottom.

I think this fear is already out of date. Most of the money already goes to the top tier teams. The second tier is mostly part time already, and the vast majority of full time players in tier two are at clubs where the owners are injecting cash -  Leigh, Fev, Newcastle and (belatedly) London. 

In fact in my opinion in having a full time top tier and a largely part time second tier makes sense in my view, it reflects where we are as a game. 

[Jughead]

To differentiate between full-time professionalism and part-time rugby league would be a positive step, IMO, whether we ended up with a 14, 16 or 18 team level of professionalism, you have to make it work. It shouldn’t be a closed shop, if Bradford, London or Widnes get their act together or someone from Batley lands the Euromillions, they should be encouraged to join. 

 

[binosh]

In an ideal world SL would expand to 14 teams with the goal of expanding further over the the next 12 years in line with the IMG contract. The extra funding for these teams should be the job of the RFL and SL to facilitate with onus on the club to market themselves correctly and have links with all the schools in their postcode area.

Toulouse should now be sorting their roster for the 23 season without fear of relegation this year, the fact they are bottom now and the gap is 6 points means their Crowd was only just over 3000 yesterday which is a far cry from what was being touted before the season. The other 2 teams are probably Leigh & Featherstone based on being the top 2 and spending power currently. They too should be preparing for SL knowing exactly how much budget they have. There are plenty of players across the world to facilitate 14 teams.

Id like to see 2 other things, overseas players raised from 7-8 per team and also mandatory academies for every team as a criteria. 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by binosh

[The Blues Ox]

 

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

But surely the sport can maintain 14 full time teams? 

I think that not having ft teams in pt league unless they make it from rev makes sense also for the benefit of both products.  

There simply isn't the player pool nor the money to have a 14 team SL. Look at Newcastle picking up all the dregs and still getting pumped by part time teams.

[Toby Chopra]

12 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

 

There simply isn't the player pool nor the money to have a 14 team SL. Look at Newcastle picking up all the dregs and still getting pumped by part time teams.

Sure, but in theory Leigh and Fev are teams 13 and 14 and they're much stronger. It's relying on outside money, but that shows on principle we could expand of investors were willing to inject funds. 

[David Dockhouse Host]

2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Plus noone is going to call it SL2.  It's a reduced championship and having your league place decided by results in another division.  Its either two conferences of ten, ala NFL, or 14.

Regardless, Why arent clubs being asked to vote on it now?  Presumably because the RFL want it to be a fait accompli. 

Problem with asking clubs is they will vote for their individual agenda not for the good of all. 

[David Dockhouse Host]

28 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

 

There simply isn't the player pool nor the money to have a 14 team SL. Look at Newcastle picking up all the dregs and still getting pumped by part time teams.

There is the player pool, many many players around.

[redjonn]

2 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

There is the player pool, many many players around.

yep, have to agree purely on logic.  The academies pumped out surplus players every year, plus players often play much later into their 30's than use too.

Unless the academy system is fundamental not working then over many years a lot of players have come through and been surplus to that academy clubs player pool.

Of course the ridiculous low salary cap often means clubs keep more academy players in the first team pool purely because they cost so little and provide injury crisis backup.

[David Dockhouse Host]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

I can’t comprehend why sections of rugby league’s fanbase want cross-division games putting fully professional sides against (largely) part-time opposition. It’s a bit small time, in my opinion. 

Few initial benefits.

Loop fixtures are not well received and this would remove them.

Opportunity to raise standards of the lower teams.

Makes lower teams more attractive to new investors.

Makes lower teams more attractive to top players as they still get to play at a good level 

Makes youth more attracted to lower clubs as there's a pathway and they can advertise themselves to the top clubs.

Helps even talent at academy as they have opportunities in those lower clubs rather than travel to join a top team who then hoover all the best 14 year olds away from traditional clubs.

Helps close the increasing gap.

Only 20 teams in a 2X10 two tier division.

I'd also like conferences as an alternative to straight 10 league

 

 

[David Dockhouse Host]

2 minutes ago, redjonn said:

yep, have to agree purely on logic.  The academies pumped out surplus players every year, plus players often play much later into their 30's than use too.

Unless the academy system is fundamental not working then over many years a lot of players have come through and been surplus to that academy clubs player pool.

Of course the ridiculous low salary cap often means clubs keep more academy players in the first team pool purely because they cost so little and provide injury crisis backup.

Agreed, those surplus to that top club often drop out due to reduced opportunity.

We also confuse 'not enough players' with even spread of talent.

I've said before the academy system when the same top clubs sign up all the best players at 14 I don't see how other clubs can ever catch up

[jroyales]

I haven't read all of the postings so I hope I am not repeating something that has already been suggested.

Why can't the bottom two of SL play against the top two of the Championship. Both games are semi-finals, the two winners play against each other and the winner either stays in SL or gets promoted from the Championship?

The same could be introduced in League 1 to the Championship and from the National League into League 1.

[David Dockhouse Host]

Just now, jroyales said:

I haven't read all of the postings so I hope I am not repeating something that has already been suggested.

Why can't the bottom two of SL play against the top two of the Championship. Both games are semi-finals, the two winners play against each other and the winner either stays in SL or gets promoted from the Championship?

The same could be introduced in League 1 to the Championship and from the National League into League 1.

Same issue exists, if a new team comes up they cannot build a dull time team in time to compete 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, jroyales said:

I haven't read all of the postings so I hope I am not repeating something that has already been suggested.

Why can't the bottom two of SL play against the top two of the Championship. Both games are semi-finals, the two winners play against each other and the winner either stays in SL or gets promoted from the Championship?

The same could be introduced in League 1 to the Championship and from the National League into League 1.

I would agree, but only if you expanded the number of teams in Super League.

[Jughead]

12 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Few initial benefits.

Loop fixtures are not well received and this would remove them.

Opportunity to raise standards of the lower teams.

Makes lower teams more attractive to new investors.

Makes lower teams more attractive to top players as they still get to play at a good level 

Makes youth more attracted to lower clubs as there's a pathway and they can advertise themselves to the top clubs.

Helps even talent at academy as they have opportunities in those lower clubs rather than travel to join a top team who then hoover all the best 14 year olds away from traditional clubs.

Helps close the increasing gap.

Only 20 teams in a 2X10 two tier division.

I'd also like conferences as an alternative to straight 10 league

 

 

I’ll be completely honest, I think that’s fantasy land stuff. 

Are these a better alternative to loop fixtures? I’d confidently say no. From a credibility standpoint, I don’t know any sporting competition that pits elite teams against second tier clubs for points in their domestic season. It’s convoluted, it’s unnecessary and I don’t see what it does for anybody but seek to lose playing a few teams for a third time in a season. I’m not sure commercially it’s wanted, either. I can’t see this being received any better than loop games, if anything, probably far worse. 

If standards aren’t improved by cutting 37 down to 20, I’m not sure what the point of doing such a controversial action would be. 

[Oxford]

7 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

to join a top team who then hoover all the best 14 year olds away from traditional clubs.

 

7 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

We also confuse 'not enough players' with even spread of talent.

And there you have it the system brilliantly summed up.

The nature of why there's inequality in stark contrast to the theories that place all the blame, onus and responsibility on the lower clubs. You would imagine that the RFL's role would be to help but they ensure it continues by denying some clubs academies.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Oxford

[Anita Bath]

I struggle to see how a sport that is concerned with expansion at the professional level can achieve this by abandoning 17 locations, apparently in one go.

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

There is the player pool, many many players around.

So what is the problem then? Is it teams hording players(that is my suspicion given the hoovering up of any youngster that touches a rugby ball)? Or simply comes back to players dropping out of the game becuase there is not enough money to keep them in it?

Another question asked earlier was about how many part time players could be decent full time players if there was the money in the game. In my opinion there is likely 1/4 maybe up to 1/2 of the players playing part time in the championship could be at least as good, if not better, than the worst group of full time players. Again though I use Brandon Moore as an example of a part time player better than many full time players but no clubs willing to pay him upwards of 50k a year that would compete with his part time salary along with his day job.

[Cowardly Fan]

4 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

So what is the problem then? Is it teams hording players(that is my suspicion given the hoovering up of any youngster that touches a rugby ball)? Or simply comes back to players dropping out of the game becuase there is not enough money to keep them in it?

Another question asked earlier was about how many part time players could be decent full time players if there was the money in the game. In my opinion there is likely 1/4 maybe up to 1/2 of the players playing part time in the championship could be at least as good, if not better, than the worst group of full time players. Again though I use Brandon Moore as an example of a part time player better than many full time players but no clubs willing to pay him upwards of 50k a year that would compete with his part time salary along with his day job.

It seems clear there will be a link between the depth of player pool and number of professional teams. There will be academy players who stop playing or reprioritise when a professional career appears out of reach. While money isn't the only factor for players an enlarged league is likely to weaken some of the existing teams too, as players move. 

I do agree that in short term it's difficult to find players of the same level. New teams can struggle more as well to recruit on mass especially if far away from heartlands and/or part-time.