Promotion & Relegation/Licencing hybrid system

[Mumby Magic]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

So after this weekend's results it's becoming safe to presume two things are likely to happen:

1. Toulouse will be relegated after one season in Super League.

2. Leigh Centurions will be promoted to Super League after one season back in The Championship.

Doesn't this demonstrate the utter pointlessness of having one up one down P&R every year?

It further demonstrates the bridge from SL to Championship cannot be bridged in one season and that clubs need more time to develop their teams/clubs over a longer period of time.

Rugby League will not only miss out on being able to fully harvest the potential of Toulouse Olympique but have already missed out on Leigh Centurions developing a formidable squad and seeing them playing the best teams in Super League.

Leigh putting 100 points passed play-off rivals York is a failure of the P&R system. Toulouse winning five games in a SL debut season only to be relegated is another failure of the system.

The 4 year P&R system benefits everyone.

No

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

Toulouse as you say lost half their spine and have still gone on to win 5 games.

Leigh (In full knowledge of funding deficit) got relegated after one season and are now putting 100 points passed play-off rivals.

As David says these are not the fault of P&R, presumably and I may be totally left field, those two lost from Toulouse In should imagine would have been their biggest earners, even saving that money they never invested enough anyway to make a go of staying up with new recruits, anyone who thought that the team that came up was good enough was deluding themselves, on the other hand Leigh have invested heavily in recruitment and it is telling in the results and for this supporter hopefully promotion, it I'd not any fault of Leigh's that others have not been able to tread the same path.

One thing is for sure, Leigh will not be doing a Toulouse and hoping to get by, Mr Beaumont has a desire to make Leigh a permanent fixture in SL, will he accomplish that only time will tell, if he does that is your 4 year plan not required.

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

That only further emphasises my point!

Why judge them in exceptional circumstances with the same P&R system as before?

Toulouse as you say lost half their spine and have still gone on to win 5 games.

Leigh (In full knowledge of funding deficit) got relegated after one season and are now putting 100 points passed play-off rivals.

Imagine if they were both promoted with Featherstone for e.g and were judge on results over 4 seasons instead of 1? - You'd have a stronger SL and a more competitive Championship.

So who would have gone down ? 

Warrington possibly ? , It'd do them good to spend 4 years in the Championship 

[JAG]

16 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As David says these are not the fault of P&R, presumably and I may be totally left field, those two lost from Toulouse In should imagine would have been their biggest earners, even saving that money they never invested enough anyway to make a go of staying up with new recruits, anyone who thought that the team that came up was good enough was deluding themselves, on the other hand Leigh have invested heavily in recruitment and it is telling in the results and for this supporter hopefully promotion, it I'd not any fault of Leigh's that others have not been able to tread the same path.

One thing is for sure, Leigh will not be doing a Toulouse and hoping to get by, Mr Beaumont has a desire to make Leigh a permanent fixture in SL, will he accomplish that only time will tell, if he does that is your 4 year plan not required.

What was the point of Leigh being relegated then? If my 4 year plan was in place this season's Leigh team would still be in SL.

"anyone who thought that the team that came up was good enough was deluding themselves" - If Toulouse can have a team strong enough to win promotion to SL but not have a team strong enough to compete in SL why insist they have only one season to bridge that gap and survive in SL? 

One up one down P&R will prove to be a highly damaging waste of time should Leigh get promoted and Toulouse get relegated. It's incredibly short sighted and leaves SL clubs too preoccupied with relegation rather than set longer term achievable goals. 

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, JAG said:

What was the point of Leigh being relegated then? If my 4 year plan was in place this season's Leigh team would still be in SL.

"anyone who thought that the team that came up was good enough was deluding themselves" - If Toulouse can have a team strong enough to win promotion to SL but not have a team strong enough to compete in SL why insist they have only one season to bridge that gap and survive in SL? 

One up one down P&R will prove to be a highly damaging waste of time should Leigh get promoted and Toulouse get relegated. It's incredibly short sighted and leaves SL clubs too preoccupied with relegation rather than set longer term achievable goals. 

So who would have been relegated ?

[JAG]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

So who would have gone down ? 

Warrington possibly ? , It'd do them good to spend 4 years in the Championship 

Warrington wouldn't be close to going down as the P&R is judged over 4 seasons not one. Warrington can won't be punished for one bad season becasue of the three seasons they were highly competitive. You're rewarding consistency.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, JAG said:

Warrington wouldn't be close to going down as the P&R is judged over 4 seasons not one. Warrington can won't be punished for one bad season becasue of the three seasons they were highly competitive. You're rewarding consistency.

So who would have gone down ? 

[JAG]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

So who would have gone down ? 

Depends on what year the 4 year cycle system is introduced.

For example in 2021:

Leigh Centurions made way for Toronto Wolfpack.                                                                        Toulouse could have been promoted for Wakefield.

Both LC & TO would have had the same shaky start to Super League and as Leigh are demonstrating they would have improved dramatically if they had a 2nd season.

Featherstone could've made way for the next worse performing team over the previous 4 years which was, I don't know, might have been Huddersfield or Hull KR for example.

The flexibility of the system means it can meet the demands of the time. If it's too big of a pill to lose one of those clubs who weren't completely awful the number of teams getting P/R can be altered. 3 up - 1 down. 2 up - 2 down. 4 up - 1 down.  It retains the peril of relegation but the 4 year timescale limits the boom and bust tendencies of clubs pushing for promotion or avoiding relegation.

One up one down creates a bottleneck keeping ambitious clubs down and stagnant clubs up.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, JAG said:

Depends on what year the 4 year cycle system is introduced.

For example in 2021:

Leigh Centurions made way for Toronto Wolfpack.                                                                        Toulouse could have been promoted for Wakefield.

Both LC & TO would have had the same shaky start to Super League and as Leigh are demonstrating they would have improved dramatically if they had a 2nd season.

Featherstone could've made way for the next worse performing team over the previous 4 years which was, I don't know, might have been Huddersfield or Hull KR for example.

The flexibility of the system means it can meet the demands of the time. If it's too big of a pill to lose one of those clubs who weren't completely awful the number of teams getting P/R can be altered. 3 up - 1 down. 2 up - 2 down. 4 up - 1 down.  It retains the peril of relegation but the 4 year timescale limits the boom and bust tendencies of clubs pushing for promotion or avoiding relegation.

One up one down creates a bottleneck keeping ambitious clubs down and stagnant clubs up.

Work it out , it's your system 

[JAG]

14 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Work it out , it's your system 

Well, you can't take all 2020 results into account because Toronto Wolfpack didn't finish the season. Before that London were in SL and since then Leigh have been relegated and Toulouse promoted further muddying the waters.

I would have promoted Leigh Centurions and Toulouse Olympique in 2021 for Toronto Wolfpack and Wakefield Trinity.

So by 2025 (World cup year) you would have your next round of P&R.

One team would be crowned team of the Era, probably St Helens or Wigan (Brand new prestigious trophy to play for by the way)

Up to four teams consistently finishing in the lower half of the league could be relegated possibly Toulouse, Hull KR, Leigh and Castleford. And up to four teams consistently finishing in the top half of the championship could be promoted likely to include York, Newcastle, Wakefield and Featherstone.

Personally I'd promote 4 and drop 2 making a 14 team SL.

Hypothetically Hull KR and Castleford (If they were the 11th & 12th worst performing teams in SL over 4 years) would make way for York, Newcastle, Wakefield and Featherstone.

This system reduces the risk of relegation being a sudden unexpected shock to a club nor promotion being a boom or bust gamble. Nobody can say a team didn't deserve relegation as they had one bad season, nobody can say a team didn't deserve promotion for one lucky one.

2026 a new era begins, the leagues look totally different and refreshed without the need for a massive restructure.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

Warrington wouldn't be close to going down as the P&R is judged over 4 seasons not one. Warrington can won't be punished for one bad season becasue of the three seasons they were highly competitive. You're rewarding consistency.

Not in all cases Jag, the team that gets relegated after 4 years will suffer for their inconsistencies.

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, JAG said:

Well, you can't take all 2020 results into account because Toronto Wolfpack didn't finish the season. Before that London were in SL and since then Leigh have been relegated and Toulouse promoted further muddying the waters.

I would have promoted Leigh Centurions and Toulouse Olympique in 2021 for Toronto Wolfpack and Wakefield Trinity.

So by 2025 (World cup year) you would have your next round of P&R.

One team would be crowned team of the Era, probably St Helens or Wigan (Brand new prestigious trophy to play for by the way)

Up to four teams consistently finishing in the lower half of the league could be relegated possibly Toulouse, Hull KR, Leigh and Castleford. And up to four teams consistently finishing in the top half of the championship could be promoted likely to include York, Newcastle, Wakefield and Featherstone.

Personally I'd promote 4 and drop 2 making a 14 team SL.

Hypothetically Hull KR and Castleford (If they were the 11th & 12th worst performing teams in SL over 4 years) would make way for York, Newcastle, Wakefield and Featherstone.

This system reduces the risk of relegation being a sudden unexpected shock to a club nor promotion being a boom or bust gamble. Nobody can say a team didn't deserve relegation as they had one bad season, nobody can say a team didn't deserve promotion for one lucky one.

2026 a new era begins, the leagues look totally different and refreshed without the need for a massive restructure.

I meant work it back from say 2010 till now , the problem is you happily point out the positives for the promoted , but not the negatives for clubs dropped out for 4 years , those clubs would potentially have to revert back to part time operation 

Initially you suggested Toronto being dropped , do you think Mr Argyle would continue to have financially support them in that scenario ? 

You use the word ' deserve ' , well life isn't like that , clubs like people don't always get what they deserve , we see that in individual games 

[JAG]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Not in all cases Jag, the team that gets relegated after 4 years will suffer for their inconsistencies.

Yes over four years. Warrington had to seriously contemplate relegation this year because of one bad season. We can all agree if Warrington finished bottom this season it would be an absolute tragedy for SL and the sport. That's the anxiety one up one down P&R causes.

If it was based over 4 years, Warrington and RL supporters would be safe in the knowledge that relegation would be impossible. If they finished bottom regularly over a four year period it would only be right they get relegated.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, JAG said:

We can all agree if Warrington finished bottom this season it would be an absolute tragedy for SL and the sport.

I don't agree, it wouldn't as you say be because of one bad season for Warrington if they finished bottom, with their squad and resources it would be totally bad management and coaching that would be the reason for relegation and deservedly so.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[JAG]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

I meant work it back from say 2010 till now , the problem is you happily point out the positives for the promoted , but not the negatives for clubs dropped out for 4 years , those clubs would potentially have to revert back to part time operation 

Initially you suggested Toronto being dropped , do you think Mr Argyle would continue to have financially support them in that scenario ? 

You use the word ' deserve ' , well life isn't like that , clubs like people don't always get what they deserve , we see that in individual games 

Toronto are an exceptional case becasue were removed from SL becasue of the pandemic they were not relegated or dropped for Leigh.

2010? Bradford Bulls were still in SL!

Yes teams who get relegated do need to restructure their business, wouldn't that be easier to do that with month in advance rather than just a few weeks or worse suffering a million pound game defeat?

The argument that a club might suffer by being relegated then why relegate anyone? It's an argument for a completely ring fenced SL and/or out and out franchising. Which we have seen destroys the Championship and rises the chance of even more ill conceived short term franchises.

"...well life isn't like that , clubs like people don't always get what they deserve..." Are you alright?

[JAG]

13 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I don't agree, it wouldn't as you say be because of one bad season for Warrington if they finished bottom, with their squad and resources it would be totally bad management and coaching that would be the reason for relegation and deservedly so.

Everyone said the same thing about Bradford Bulls. "They'll come straight back up."

Then why deprive SL of a good players and resources for a pointless exercise in one up one down P&R?

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, JAG said:

Toronto are an exceptional case becasue were removed from SL becasue of the pandemic they were not relegated or dropped for Leigh.

2010? Bradford Bulls were still in SL!

Yes teams who get relegated do need to restructure their business, wouldn't that be easier to do that with month in advance rather than just a few weeks or worse suffering a million pound game defeat?

The argument that a club might suffer by being relegated then why relegate anyone? It's an argument for a completely ring fenced SL and/or out and out franchising. Which we have seen destroys the Championship and rises the chance of even more ill conceived short term franchises.

"...well life isn't like that , clubs like people don't always get what they deserve..." Are you alright?

Not the point I meant about Toronto , I thought you were suggesting they'd most likely struggle over their first few years and therefore then get ' removed ' , then we would see a reaction stating that quite probably if they were denied promotion back for 4 years their owner would pull out , I'd suggest the similar would apply to most financial backers and indeed sponsors 

[JAG]

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Not the point I meant about Toronto , I thought you were suggesting they'd most likely struggle over their first few years and therefore then get ' removed ' , then we would see a reaction stating that quite probably if they were denied promotion back for 4 years their owner would pull out , I'd suggest the similar would apply to most financial backers and indeed sponsors 

The flip side of that is 12 clubs can go to backers and sponsors and say we are guaranteed 4 years of SL exposure minimum.

[Harry Stottle]

Just now, JAG said:

Everyone said the same thing about Bradford Bulls. "They'll come straight back up."

Then why deprive SL of a good players and resources for a pointless exercise in one up one down P&R?

The likely hood is that SL would not be deprived of good player's, one thing is those player's collectively took the team down, but moreso would exercise their right and have their contracts null and voided. 

I enjoy the annual P&R, I love to read and watch the intrigue of the relegation battle, I enjoy the fight for promotion, you obviously don't agree but I don't want this system changing and as you intimated Closed Shop/ Franchise will destroy the Championship which in turn will start the rot of the whole game.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, JAG said:

The flip side of that is 12 clubs can go to backers and sponsors and say we are guaranteed 4 years of SL exposure minimum.

Yes but 4 of you will be going down again 

[JAG]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Yes but 4 of you will be going down again 

And 4 will be going up. 

Better than 12 teams saying to investors "One bad season we could lose our SL status." 

Would be great for a team like Leigh, Toulouse or Warrington to say:

"Yes this season was bad, but we will retain our SL status for 2 more years minimum, with a chance to up that to 6 years."

[Jughead]

Can imagine it now 

“I see Hull KR have finished bottom of Super League”

”Yeah but because they finished 7th last year and that they’ve won games on a Thursday over the past two years wearing white socks and have beaten Hull three times, they’re not going down. Instead that’s Salford.”

”Salford?! Didn’t they finish in the play-offs?”

”Erm…yeah”

”….right”. 

[JAG]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

The likely hood is that SL would not be deprived of good player's, one thing is those player's collectively took the team down, but moreso would exercise their right and have their contracts null and voided. 

I enjoy the annual P&R, I love to read and watch the intrigue of the relegation battle, I enjoy the fight for promotion, you obviously don't agree but I don't want this system changing and as you intimated Closed Shop/ Franchise will destroy the Championship which in turn will start the rot of the whole game.

I want to maintain P&R just not in it's current form.

At the moment it's a bottle neck. Too many clubs are under too much undue pressure.

It appears Leigh have spent a pointless season in the Championship for the sake of Toulouse trying to bridge the SL - Champ gap in one season which has been proven by Leigh, London and Toronto (Even without the Pandemic they would have probably finished bottom) is too much.

It also weakens the SL competition. Imagine 12 teams without the immediate danger of relegation from SL signing players for 2-4 years contracts with a budget they can actually forecast and manage.

[JAG]

12 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Can imagine it now 

“I see Hull KR have finished bottom of Super League”

”Yeah but because they finished 7th last year and that they’ve won games on a Thursday over the past two years wearing white socks and have beaten Hull three times, they’re not going down. Instead that’s Salford.”

”Salford?! Didn’t they finish in the play-offs?”

”Erm…yeah”

”….right”. 

The era league would be published alongside the current SL one.

It's incredibly simple. The 1st round of season two becomes round 28 of the era league. 

Every club will know where they stand and no matter how great or poor you are playing that season it all counts toward the era league.

It's a new competition with new sponsorship opportunities, prestige and silverware at no additional game time for players, perfect.

[Jughead]

1 minute ago, JAG said:

The era league would be published alongside the current SL one.

It's incredibly simple. The 1st round of season two becomes round 28 of the era league. 

Every club will know where they stand and no matter how great or poor you are playing that season it all counts toward the era league.

It's a new competition with new sponsorship opportunities, prestige and silverware at no additional game time for players, perfect.

It’s daft, it’s gimmicky, it’s not really needed or wanted and not simple. It solves none of the games ills and looks like another unnecessary move by the games elite level.