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Promotion & Relegation/Licencing hybrid system


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1 hour ago, idrewthehaggis said:

No problem JAG, a bit of grown up discussion is what we all need these days.

So if your suggestion was enacted between 2009-13, then it would have been Celtic and London/Quins replaced by Fev and Leigh for 2014-18.

I will let you calculate for that "era" and the following one currently ongoing.

Yes. And if we the governing body was really adventurous one or two more teams could have gone up/down. Salford and/or Wakefield replaced with Halifax and/or Widnes. Obviously that kind of decision would be made at the start of the cycle not halfway through it.

From 2014 we would need a bit of magic to conjure up a realistic idea of what the Leagues would have looked like by the end of 2017.

I'd have a guess in this alternate reality that Bradford (given their financial difficulties around this time) & Featherstone would probably finish in the bottom 2 of the era league. (Possibly Hull KR also Halifax and Widnes if they went up in the last cycle)

And from The Championship Salford, London, Sheffield and Wakefield would all be in contention for going up in 2017.

The super interesting question is who would have won the Super League Era league? As there were four different league leader's shield winners in each season. St. Helens, Leeds, Hull F.C & Castleford.

Edited by JAG
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The thought had crossed my mind before, but for some reason I thought if 3 years not 4 and 1 team not 3.

Maybe 2 teams on application as they rely do need to have financial stability and a decent stadium. Or Championship teams will continue to neglect that side of things and put money into players that if they don't go up would have been wasted

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On 16/09/2021 at 13:57, sweaty craiq said:

Championship clubs sales pitch to investor “ We need about £1m a season off you, that way we can build our own FT squad for 4 years time when we might get into SL if our first 2 years of building work out” Investor “look I am only interested in being involved with a club at the top table, my family/business don’t want second rate sport to throw millions at, call again when your in SL or we can win a spot in a year”

If an investor is only interested in gaining promotion in year one or walking away are they a good investee anyway? Don't we want longer term investors?

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25 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

If an investor is only interested in gaining promotion in year one or walking away are they a good investee anyway? Don't we want longer term investors?

That's not really what he is saying, not getting promotion in the first year doesn't mean someone may walk away. However not being able to get promotion for 4 years, or even 5 or 6 possibly, isn't a particularly appealing proposition. 

We need investors full stop and make things much too difficult by putting obstacles in their way. Its only in Rugby League that fans seemingly require a purity test for everything an owner does, whether that is not being allowed to buy success or castigating new clubs for not having a squad full of players born with 5 miles of the ground. With the salary cap and its exemptions one approach is allowed, an approach which is heavily skewed and weighted towards the existing status quo and especially the big clubs, and that's it. Other sports don't look at things that way and welcome money being invested. In RL its usually just fear of their own particular club being overtaken or relegated that leads some RL fans to think like that.

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1 hour ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

If an investor is only interested in gaining promotion in year one or walking away are they a good investee anyway? Don't we want longer term investors?

How did you read that from the hypothetical situation - one hell of a closed mind, they continue in the elite. The background was to build a full time club over 4 years to be competitive should you get into SL.

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7 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

How did you read that from the hypothetical situation - one hell of a closed mind, they continue in the elite. The background was to build a full time club over 4 years to be competitive should you get into SL.

Your original post suggested an investor is only interested in a team that can get promotion in one year.

I questioned whether that's the sort of investment that would add value and sustainability to the sport.

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2 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

The thought had crossed my mind before, but for some reason I thought if 3 years not 4 and 1 team not 3.

Maybe 2 teams on application as they rely do need to have financial stability and a decent stadium. Or Championship teams will continue to neglect that side of things and put money into players that if they don't go up would have been wasted

I believe 4 years works best at it will run parallel with a world cup cycle. Other sports think/operate in terms of the next world cup, I don't think RL should be any different.

Every team would need to meet a minimum standard to even be eligible for SL. E.g Bradford Bulls could win the Championship every year but until we sort our pitch out we wouldn't qualify for SL.

The 4 year cycle demonstrates which clubs can support a competitive team consistently thus proving a sustainable model. Many clubs have gone form boom to bust and owners have also come and gone in that time frame. 

You could go as high as 4 teams promoted after 4 years, which would be the equivalent of yearly P&R. 1 team promoted in 3 years is too little mobility between leagues in my opinion. 3-4 teams in four years creates genuine jeopardy for SL and a great incentive for Championship clubs.

This system is a compromise of 2 systems. P&R on its own is too unreliable and unfair. Licensing feels too sterile and undeserved. Combine them together we might have something.

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2 hours ago, Damien said:

That's not really what he is saying, not getting promotion in the first year doesn't mean someone may walk away. However not being able to get promotion for 4 years, or even 5 or 6 possibly, isn't a particularly appealing proposition. 

We need investors full stop and make things much too difficult by putting obstacles in their way. Its only in Rugby League that fans seemingly require a purity test for everything an owner does, whether that is not being allowed to buy success or castigating new clubs for not having a squad full of players born with 5 miles of the ground. With the salary cap and its exemptions one approach is allowed, an approach which is heavily skewed and weighted towards the existing status quo and especially the big clubs, and that's it. Other sports don't look at things that way and welcome money being invested. In RL its usually just fear of their own particular club being overtaken or relegated that leads some RL fans to think like that.

RL fans are rightly concerned with the intentions of clubs and owners becasue we've been burnt so many times in the past. Celtic Crusaders are a prime example of a team fast tracked too soon into SL. Bradford Bulls have had several owners in the last 10 years who all promised to turn the club around. Marwan Koukash only lasted a 4 years as owner of Salford before throwing in the towel. Derek Beaumont is a very temperamental character who plows loads of money into Leigh then pulls the plug and leaves players in the lurch.

How can relegating as many as 3-4 SL clubs at once be keeping the Status Quo it's taking a sledgehammer to the Status Quo.

Nobody is investing in do nothing SL clubs and going nowhere Championship clubs.

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On 16/09/2021 at 12:37, Mumby Magic said:

FFS what is it with people seriously. Think my epitaph will be "The sport needs stability and leadership". Sorry but I'm sick to the back teeth of all these ideas. 

If as much effort was put into, "how do we generate more money" the game would be in rude health. 

 

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I can't compile a "what if" for promotion/relegation relegation for the last 4 years (too many missed fixtures) But St. Helens would at some point this season have won the Era League trophy, which would have been a nice highlight of this season.

The Era league wouldn't have cost anything to apply and wouldn't change the current regular season either meanwhile if there was sponsor attached to it like 'BetFred', 'Dacia' or even 'Batchelors' that's all profit.

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1 hour ago, JAG said:

I can't compile a "what if" for promotion/relegation relegation for the last 4 years (too many missed fixtures) But St. Helens would at some point this season have won the Era League trophy, which would have been a nice highlight of this season.

The Era league wouldn't have cost anything to apply and wouldn't change the current regular season either meanwhile if there was sponsor attached to it like 'BetFred', 'Dacia' or even 'Batchelors' that's all profit.

I thought it was a nice simple premise?  Surely that means easy to work out? 😜

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3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I thought it was a nice simple premise?  Surely that means easy to work out? 😜

Seeing as there wasn't a Championship season last year and a team that dominated for the previous two years was then kicked out the leagues made it quite a futile exercise.

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Just now, JAG said:

Seeing as there wasn't a Championship season last year and a team that dominated for the previous two years was then kicked out the leagues made it quite a futile exercise.

Who’s to say that won’t happen again in future 4 year cycles ?

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1 minute ago, Spidey said:

Who’s to say that won’t happen again in future 4 year cycles ?

I'm hoping there won't be another pandemic that destroys a club's ability to play almost entirely.

If this system was in place Toronto wouldn't have been eligible for promotion as they didn't survive the 4 year cycle. Thus a place in Super League would have gone to a more stable functioning club and we wouldn't have had the whole poisoned chalice promotion of Leigh debacle. Or we could just simply reduce the number of teams getting relegated/promoted. 4 teams to 3 or 3 teams to 2.

For the record I wanted Toronto to succeed and would have allowed them back into SL as I believe without the pandemic happening they would have been a huge asset for SL.

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11 minutes ago, JAG said:

1. I'm hoping there won't be another pandemic that destroys a club's ability to play almost entirely.

2. f this system was in place Toronto wouldn't have been eligible for promotion as they didn't survive the 4 year cycle. Thus a place in Super League would have gone to a more stable functioning club and we wouldn't have had the whole poisoned chalice promotion of Leigh debacle. Or we could just simply reduce the number of teams getting relegated/promoted. 4 teams to 3 or 3 teams to 2.

3. For the record I wanted Toronto to succeed and would have allowed them back into SL as I believe without the pandemic happening they would have been a huge asset for SL.

1. The eventuality needs to be planned for

2. If Toronto hadn't been around Leigh would have probably won promotion in 2018

3. I would hope nobody wanted Toronto to fail - especially the Leigh fans who took over dozens of RL balls to help a teacher grow the sport, something they are also arranging when said teacher comes over to play in the Masters event in Leigh this winter - seems to be a problem getting them at a decent cost over there. TW would have been a huge asset but as normal no thought was put into the what ifs eg what if TW is a success, then TO, then Ottawa etc because in a few years we might only have 5/6 UK clubs in SL

 

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3 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

1. The eventuality needs to be planned for

2. If Toronto hadn't been around Leigh would have probably won promotion in 2018

3. I would hope nobody wanted Toronto to fail - especially the Leigh fans who took over dozens of RL balls to help a teacher grow the sport, something they are also arranging when said teacher comes over to play in the Masters event in Leigh this winter - seems to be a problem getting them at a decent cost over there. TW would have been a huge asset but as normal no thought was put into the what ifs eg what if TW is a success, then TO, then Ottawa etc because in a few years we might only have 5/6 UK clubs in SL

 

Leigh finished 6th in 2018 behind (Toronto) Toulouse, London, Halifax and Featherstone.

All I'm saying is with an Era league you can clearly see which teams have firm foundations to have a good crack at SL. A four year cycle with multiple team promotion gives you that. Leigh would be in the running to be one of those teams without a doubt.

I've no doubt Leigh are a great RL club with loyal and passionate fans, that was never in question.

If Toronto, Toulouse and Ottawa were in SL and were there becasue of on-field performances with stable long-term club finances/structures then Rugby League would be in a much healthier state than it is right now, we'd all be celebrating.

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2 hours ago, JAG said:

Leigh finished 6th in 2018 behind (Toronto) Toulouse, London, Halifax and Featherstone.

All I'm saying is with an Era league you can clearly see which teams have firm foundations to have a good crack at SL. A four year cycle with multiple team promotion gives you that. Leigh would be in the running to be one of those teams without a doubt.

I've no doubt Leigh are a great RL club with loyal and passionate fans, that was never in question.

If Toronto, Toulouse and Ottawa were in SL and were there becasue of on-field performances with stable long-term club finances/structures then Rugby League would be in a much healthier state than it is right now, we'd all be celebrating.

I'd suggest that Leigh have won more RL games than any other pro/semi pro RL team in the world over the last 2 decades , so your system/structure would suit us down to a tee , but we would also most likely be relegated every 4 years as well 

Bloody good fun though 😁

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2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

I'd suggest that Leigh have won more RL games than any other pro/semi pro RL team in the world over the last 2 decades , so your system/structure would suit us down to a tee , but we would also most likely be relegated every 4 years as well 

Bloody good fun though 😁

That might be the case but Leigh would more than likely gain the promotion they thoroughly deserve and get to spend more time in SL than at any other time over the last 20 years combined.

Who knows they could establish themselves as a genuine Super League force?

It's better than trying to get everything right in one year in SL or getting leap-frogged for promotion by a flash in the pan, short-term success orientated club that'll go bust in no time.

Edited by JAG
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8 hours ago, JAG said:

Leigh finished 6th in 2018 behind (Toronto) Toulouse, London, Halifax and Featherstone.

All I'm saying is with an Era league you can clearly see which teams have firm foundations to have a good crack at SL. A four year cycle with multiple team promotion gives you that. Leigh would be in the running to be one of those teams without a doubt.

I've no doubt Leigh are a great RL club with loyal and passionate fans, that was never in question.

If Toronto, Toulouse and Ottawa were in SL and were there becasue of on-field performances with stable long-term club finances/structures then Rugby League would be in a much healthier state than it is right now, we'd all be celebrating.

Go to 2018 table, remove all TW fixtures and apologise please

your last point has no relevance and shows your lack of understanding the answers given when they don’t suit your one eyed agenda 

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30 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Go to 2018 table, remove all TW fixtures and apologise please

your last point has no relevance and shows your lack of understanding the answers given when they don’t suit your one eyed agenda 

Betfred Championship P W L D PF PA DIFF PTS
1 70539_full.png Toronto Wolfpack 23 20 2 1 866 374 492 41
2 33479_full.png London Broncos 23 16 6 1 907 423 484 33
3 116_full.png Toulouse Olympique XIII 23 16 6 1 900 438 462 33
4 6_full.png Halifax RLFC 23 16 6 1 643 416 227 33
5 13_full.png Featherstone Rovers 23 16 7 0 819 420 399 32
6 5_full.png Leigh Centurions 23 16 7 0 849 508 341 32
7 4_full.png Batley Bulldogs 23 8 15 0 523 703 -180 16
8 8_full.png Sheffield Eagles 23 7 16 0 437 843 -406 14
9 7_full.png Dewsbury Rams 23 6 16 1 424 746 -322 13
10 12_full.png Barrow Raiders 23 5 15 3 382 816 -434 13
11 14_full.png Swinton Lions 23 3 18 2 402 866 -464 8
12 10_full.png Rochdale Hornets 23 4 19 0 327 926 -599 8

The clubs finishing fifth and below in the regular season play for the Championship Shield.

 

Pos Team Pld W D L PF PA PD Pts Qualification
1 Fevcolours.svg Featherstone Rovers (Q) 30 23 0 7 1040 524 +516 46 Shield final
2 Leigh colours.svg Leigh Centurions (Q) 30 20 0 10 1059 644 +415 40
3 Batley colours.svg Batley Bulldogs 30 14 0 16 753 805 −52 28  
4 Ramscolours.svg Dewsbury Rams 30 10 1 19 650 899 −249 21
5 Barrowcolours.svg Barrow Raiders 30 8 3 19 491 1006 −515 19
6 Sheffeagles colours.svg Sheffield Eagles 30 8 0 22 549 1091 −542 16
7 Rochdale colours.svg Rochdale Hornets 30 6 0 24 465 1093 −628 12
8 Swintoncolours.svg Swinton Lions 30 4 2 24 502 1112 −610 10 Relegation play-off[b]

Championship Shield Final

2018 Fevcolours.svg Featherstone Rovers 42-10 Leigh colours.svg Leigh Centurions Post Office Road

You're asking me to apologise for my "lack of understanding"?

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15 hours ago, JAG said:
Betfred Championship P W L D PF PA DIFF PTS
1 70539_full.png Toronto Wolfpack 23 20 2 1 866 374 492 41
2 33479_full.png London Broncos 23 16 6 1 907 423 484 33
3 116_full.png Toulouse Olympique XIII 23 16 6 1 900 438 462 33
4 6_full.png Halifax RLFC 23 16 6 1 643 416 227 33
5 13_full.png Featherstone Rovers 23 16 7 0 819 420 399 32
6 5_full.png Leigh Centurions 23 16 7 0 849 508 341 32
7 4_full.png Batley Bulldogs 23 8 15 0 523 703 -180 16
8 8_full.png Sheffield Eagles 23 7 16 0 437 843 -406 14
9 7_full.png Dewsbury Rams 23 6 16 1 424 746 -322 13
10 12_full.png Barrow Raiders 23 5 15 3 382 816 -434 13
11 14_full.png Swinton Lions 23 3 18 2 402 866 -464 8
12 10_full.png Rochdale Hornets 23 4 19 0 327 926 -599 8

The clubs finishing fifth and below in the regular season play for the Championship Shield.

 

Pos Team Pld W D L PF PA PD Pts Qualification
1 Fevcolours.svg Featherstone Rovers (Q) 30 23 0 7 1040 524 +516 46 Shield final
2 Leigh colours.svg Leigh Centurions (Q) 30 20 0 10 1059 644 +415 40
3 Batley colours.svg Batley Bulldogs 30 14 0 16 753 805 −52 28  
4 Ramscolours.svg Dewsbury Rams 30 10 1 19 650 899 −249 21
5 Barrowcolours.svg Barrow Raiders 30 8 3 19 491 1006 −515 19
6 Sheffeagles colours.svg Sheffield Eagles 30 8 0 22 549 1091 −542 16
7 Rochdale colours.svg Rochdale Hornets 30 6 0 24 465 1093 −628 12
8 Swintoncolours.svg Swinton Lions 30 4 2 24 502 1112 −610 10 Relegation play-off[b]

Championship Shield Final

2018 Fevcolours.svg Featherstone Rovers 42-10 Leigh colours.svg Leigh Centurions Post Office Road

You're asking me to apologise for my "lack of understanding"?

As stated basic English and ability to listen is a big problem for you it seems, so let me try again - in big letters

REMOVE ALL TW FIXTURES AND RESULTS OF THOSE FIXTURES FROM THE FINAL POSITIONS. LEIGH STAY ON 32 POINTS AND WILL HAVE PLAYED ONE GAME LESS THAN THE OTHERS DUE TO LOSING TO TW 3 TIMES (BASH FIXTURE). THEY LOST TO LONDON AND FEV WHICH TAKES THEM TO 31 AND 30 RESPECTIVELY - SO WITHOUT THE EXTRA FIXTURE LEIGH WOULD HAVE FINISHED 3RD AND WITH THE 2 PLAYERS COMING IN ON TOP OF THE QUALITY WE HAD PLUS THE FACT WE HAD BEATEN ALL OUR RIVALS IN THE SECOND PART OF THE SEASON AND SALFORD IN THE CC LEADS ME TO BELIEVE WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN PROMOTED.

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1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

As stated basic English and ability to listen is a big problem for you it seems, so let me try again - in big letters

REMOVE ALL TW FIXTURES AND RESULTS OF THOSE FIXTURES FROM THE FINAL POSITIONS. LEIGH STAY ON 32 POINTS AND WILL HAVE PLAYED ONE GAME LESS THAN THE OTHERS DUE TO LOSING TO TW 3 TIMES (BASH FIXTURE). THEY LOST TO LONDON AND FEV WHICH TAKES THEM TO 31 AND 30 RESPECTIVELY - SO WITHOUT THE EXTRA FIXTURE LEIGH WOULD HAVE FINISHED 3RD AND WITH THE 2 PLAYERS COMING IN ON TOP OF THE QUALITY WE HAD PLUS THE FACT WE HAD BEATEN ALL OUR RIVALS IN THE SECOND PART OF THE SEASON AND SALFORD IN THE CC LEADS ME TO BELIEVE WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN PROMOTED.

Leigh couldn't even win the Championship Shield. They went on to lose three more games in that mini league.

So ignore three of Leigh's League defeats, ignore the two teams who finished above them who actually beat Toronto Wolfpack, ignore the fact they still would only have finished third, ignore the fact they were losing to teams in the bottom half of the league by the end of the season. Ignore the fact London beat the team Leigh couldn't to actually get promoted along with beating SL teams Salford and Widnes along the way. And most of all ignore the fact the club went into Special Measures when Derek Beaumont withdrew funding...Then yes, I suppose there might be a case for Leigh getting promoted. It's still a weaker case than either Toulouse or Halifax and eventual winners London would have made.

The strange thing is the system I'm proposing actually benefits Leigh massively but you've chosen to misunderstand that and taken great exception to minor valid criticism of Leigh which with more investigation which totally vindicates my point which is't even the topic of this thread.

6th in the League is really 1st in the League.

Bizarre.

Edited by JAG
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