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Fan Engagement Survey


Damien

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2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Thought Dave Woods kind of proved his point about RL feeling embarrassed and insecure about its heritage and Northern-ness with the Fartown example then Wood's need to point out that Catalans and Toulouse came top.  

I think he showed a few times why an outside perspective is needed. The things that some in the sport think needs to change to make it modern and progressive really doesn't and what people do get hung up upon does show an insecurity and lack of confidence.

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19 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Thought Dave Woods kind of proved his point about RL feeling embarrassed and insecure about its heritage and Northern-ness with the Fartown example then Wood's need to point out that Catalans and Toulouse came top.  

This section very much came across as an opinion piece though rather than backed up with any results. His attitude appeared to be very much more in the Michael Carter 'celebrate being big in the North' rather than expansion, rebrands etc. 

When he says 'the game' is embarrassed of what it is - who does he refer to?

Many of those in charge across the game seem to be almost embarrassed at it, lacking in confidence somehow. I don’t get that from the fans who completed this survey, who clearly love and cherish their clubs and what is a wonderful sport that unites communities, and which has an extraordinary origin story

What question drove that view? I think this point needs some disecting somewhat. Because those in charge often get criticised for wanting to keep it as a Northern Sport from fans - and the Northern England World Cup hardly seems like a sport embarrassed by its Northernness. On the flip side, many fans (including me) want us to branch out and be more than Northern Rugby. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

This section very much came across as an opinion piece though rather than backed up with any results. His attitude appeared to be very much more in the Michael Carter 'celebrate being big in the North' rather than expansion, rebrands etc. 

When he says 'the game' is embarrassed of what it is - who does he refer to?

Many of those in charge across the game seem to be almost embarrassed at it, lacking in confidence somehow. I don’t get that from the fans who completed this survey, who clearly love and cherish their clubs and what is a wonderful sport that unites communities, and which has an extraordinary origin story

What question drove that view? I think this point needs some disecting somewhat. Because those in charge often get criticised for wanting to keep it as a Northern Sport from fans - and the Northern England World Cup hardly seems like a sport embarrassed by its Northernness. On the flip side, many fans (including me) want us to branch out and be more than Northern Rugby. 

It's not an either/or though, Dave. The game can be proud of its Northern heritage while taking sustainable steps to expand.

One of the problems is we have the flatcap/expansionist dichotomy with extremes swinging from North American conferences on one side to no foreign clubs at all on the other. 

There is no reason that we can't aim to be the North's second sport while pushing the boundaries of where (and how, and by who) RL is played.

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1 minute ago, Johnoco said:

Not this old 'ashamed to be northern' cobblers again.

Nobody is ashamed of being Northern, the alternative is being Southern - and who wants that? 

And if RL actually was popular all over the North, or even most of it,  it would be much better off but the reality is it isn't. Keeping it confined to a handful of places will not, repeat not, secure it's future, however many times you patronisingly bang on about it being 'its greatest strength'. 

Football has always kept its North -South rivalry without confining itself to either. 

I don't agree with that, actually. Those 'handful of places' are actually fairly sizeable places and the sport can absolutely trade off its history and authenticity as a Northern institution. 

This is where we need better marketing, facilities and - to keep it on point - fan engagement.

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1 minute ago, Johnoco said:

You are dreaming. Northern Institution? 😂😂😂 I can drive for 15 minutes and get to places where you might as well be on Mars when it comes to RL.

I think you need to move up here and remove those rose tinted glasses because people actually aren’t walking around doing Eddie Waring impersonations like you seem to think. 

Eddie Waring?!

This is what Kevin Rye's on about. Insecurity. 

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1 minute ago, Johnoco said:

You are dreaming. Northern Institution? 😂😂😂 I can drive for 15 minutes and get to places where you might as well be on Mars when it comes to RL.

I think you need to move up here and remove those rose tinted glasses because people actually aren’t walking around doing Eddie Waring impersonations like you seem to think. 

Rugby league can trade off its reputation as a northern institution.

Down south.

Because southerners, almost universally, have next door to no understanding that the north is both big and varied.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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30 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This section very much came across as an opinion piece though rather than backed up with any results. His attitude appeared to be very much more in the Michael Carter 'celebrate being big in the North' rather than expansion, rebrands etc. 

When he says 'the game' is embarrassed of what it is - who does he refer to?

Many of those in charge across the game seem to be almost embarrassed at it, lacking in confidence somehow. I don’t get that from the fans who completed this survey, who clearly love and cherish their clubs and what is a wonderful sport that unites communities, and which has an extraordinary origin story

What question drove that view? I think this point needs some disecting somewhat. Because those in charge often get criticised for wanting to keep it as a Northern Sport from fans - and the Northern England World Cup hardly seems like a sport embarrassed by its Northernness. On the flip side, many fans (including me) want us to branch out and be more than Northern Rugby. 

You seem to be conflating two different topics into a binary choice. I don't see the correlation between being proud of the game, its history and how good it is with not being able to expand or branch out into new markets. It is quite possible to do both.

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2 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Again, you don’t have clue what you are talking about. You are simply rehashing some image you have acquired of ‘northerners’ walking around discussing RL or at least being interested when it’s simply not the case. 
 

What about the bit about driving 15 minutes from my house to somewhere that RL is totally alien? Is that insecurity? 

Your mention of Eddie Waring is telling. Chip on the shoulder. Insecurity. 

Rugby league is overwhelmingly a Northern sport for Northern people. You cannot change this. 

Embrace it. Trade off it.
 

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4 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

MOK seems to be under the impression that there aren’t huge, massive, swathes of the north where RL doesn’t exist, nor ever has. 
 

Tell what though, what I like about southerners is that they eat Jellied Eels and work on market stalls. Oh and they love their old mums.

You do get bored of the cockney rhyming slang here in Hastings.

But at least we can catch the tube.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Your mention of Eddie Waring is telling. Chip on the shoulder. Insecurity. 

Rugby league is overwhelmingly a Northern sport for Northern people. You cannot change this. 

Embrace it. Trade off it.
 

I think the sport should be proud of its heritage and history and it can certainly embrace that. However things like a northern sport for a northern people is just daft. The North is not one uniform place and I'd argue that what would appeal to non RL folk in places like Manchester and Liverpool is much the same as would appeal to people in Birmingham or London. Being proud of the North certainly does not mean going down the whole Eddie Waring and flatcaps route, which doesn't even really exist in RL towns now never mind anywhere else. Not using that stereotypical Northern image as a selling point is completely different than not being embarrassed by it when it comes to the games roots and history.

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13 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think the sport should be proud of its heritage and history and it can certainly embrace that. However things like a northern sport for a northern people is just daft. The North is not one uniform place and I'd argue that what would appeal to non RL folk in places like Manchester and Liverpool is much the same as would appeal to people in Birmingham or London. Being proud of the North certainly does not mean going down the whole Eddie Waring and flatcaps route, which doesn't even really exist in RL towns now never mind anywhere else. Not using that stereotypical Northern image as a selling point is completely different than not being embarrassed by it when it comes to the games roots and history.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting going down the Featherstone route by any means.

I'm sure advertising agencies could put together a very powerful message that tells a story about the game's Northern heritage while making it seem modern and accessible to outsiders.

But, before I dash off to the Emirates, I will say there are many more tickets to be sold to the millions living in and around the M62 than will ever be the case in Birmingham.

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23 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I will say there are many more tickets to be sold to the millions living in and around the M62 than will ever be the case in Birmingham.

Thank god we're not letting you anywhere near the running of the sport then.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

You seem to be conflating two different topics into a binary choice. I don't see the correlation between being proud of the game, its history and how good it is with not being able to expand or branch out into new markets. It is quite possible to do both.

It is possible, but we see on here that it is quite a polarising topic. 

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I ask again, where is the evidence that those in charge of the game are embarrassed by our roots and story? How has a fan engagement survey led him to that conclusion? 

I personally was embarrassed by the fanzone at the Olympic Stadium run by Rugby AM for Northern Oiks, but the people running it have embraced it and run with it. If anything the clubs and governing body get criticism for staying in their Northern shell too much. 

I'd accept it if the point was aimed more at the fans tbh. I get embarrassed by some of the Northernness at times as I think it is unwelcoming to outsiders. 

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

I participated in the survey and posted it here.

Kevin Rye is also featured in this week's 5Live RL podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09wkmnd

As a fellow Southern-based AFC Wimbledon fan who likes RL, I have to agree with Kevin's assessment that RL is a sport lacking in self-confidence, uncomfortable in its own skin and embarrassed to be a Northern sport rooted in its communities - even though that is its greatest strength.

embarrassed to be a Northern sport rooted in its communities - even though that is its greatest strength”

I think that’s its biggest weakness in this global sporting world in which we live.  By FAR its greatest weakness.

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4 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Reading the RFL Spokesperson response it seems the current expression,' Tone Deaf ' applies - 

 

That is real fingers in their ears stuff. I must admit I have never seen or heard evidence of much of this and the only surveys I can ever recall were very much slanted in favour of the RFL. The fact people have complained for years about minor things like sections of stadiums not being open for sale at major events and not being able to pick your seat show they certainly don't listen. This reaction shows precisely why they need an outsider to work on this:

An RFL spokesperson said they engaged and consulted with fans regularly.

"We champion the insight internally and it contributes to strategic decision making," they added.

"Examples of this include an annual fans survey, conducted at the end of each season - the 2021 survey will be pushed out in November - which covers a broad range of topics, and consistently receives more than 1,000 responses.

"We also convene groups of fans digitally or in person at our offices and clubs to consult on key subjects - such as our league, or strategy - and we survey participants at the end of every playing season for feedback on competitions and their experiences of participating.

"In addition, we are part of a syndicated UK sport-wide tracking study to enable us to benchmark feelings towards rugby league amongst our fans and the UK general population against other sports.

"Finally, we have a customer services team who record and respond to all fan enquiries on a broad range of subjects - match officials, competitions structure ideas, marketing ideas etc."

Rugby league fans tell survey they feel 'cut off' from decision makers - BBC Sport

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To be fair, there are always RFL surveys knocking about. I think we even moaned about the quality of them on here. 

We also get some focused ones for things like Cup Final venues. 

I still think the response misses the point, surveys are not great fan engagement really. They really can be slanted to suit any purpose. 

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Cheers Damien. 

The survey does not give a good impression of fans satisfaction. I always think surveys/opinion polls are a shadow or reflection of what people really feel. Not precisely, but a glimpse.

Spying this, might give us the idea that we aren't happy,

I think a sense of dislocating alienation is not idea at any time for the sport. Even worse given there is an on coming alteration that will most likely isolate many of the RL family, if handled badly.

RL is not a democracy, but it should embrace a sense of accountability and responsibility for without the fans, rugby league is nothing. 

I would hope for a better response from the clubs and the RFL.

More so less talk and a bit more action. 

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I personally was embarrassed by the fanzone at the Olympic Stadium run by Rugby AM for Northern Oiks

Thankfully, the RFL/Super League seemed to have put them in the discarded pile. Mr. Rugby AM's disillusionment with RL might be down to the lack of money he's getting from the sport these days. I'd hate to know how much we wasted on them and their "brand" of "entertainment" for morons.

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

To be fair, there are always RFL surveys knocking about. I think we even moaned about the quality of them on here. 

We also get some focused ones for things like Cup Final venues. 

I still think the response misses the point, surveys are not great fan engagement really. They really can be slanted to suit any purpose. 

I'd agree. There also can't be that many clubs that don't run fans forums or have a fans council of some sort. Leeds certainly did before the pandemic and they published the minutes of those meetings. 

But the challenge with these sorts of things is that, whilst they can be useful for some things, they do tend to attract the section of support that is already most engaged. That gives you a good idea about what fans think about the quality of merch in the club shop or the quality of service in the South Stand bars, but does it give you any meaningful market research and insight? Not really. I was sat in one where the club courted ideas for engaging the under-30 market, and one response was genuinely suggesting that we'd get more fans if Ben Thaler stopped making mistakes. 

And that is my fear - that the RFL uses these many surveys as a way of doing market research "on the cheap". 

Fan engagement means a lot of things to a lot of people and whilst it's important to at least understand what their wants and needs are in their capacity of a fan, reading between the lines of some comments gives you the idea that it involves fans having a seat at the boardroom table and influencing decisions around the running of the club. With the greatest respect, I don't want that. Have you met most of our fans? They're idiots. 

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4 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I'd agree. There also can't be that many clubs that don't run fans forums or have a fans council of some sort. Leeds certainly did before the pandemic and they published the minutes of those meetings. 

But the challenge with these sorts of things is that, whilst they can be useful for some things, they do tend to attract the section of support that is already most engaged. That gives you a good idea about what fans think about the quality of merch in the club shop or the quality of service in the South Stand bars, but does it give you any meaningful market research and insight? Not really. I was sat in one where the club courted ideas for engaging the under-30 market, and one response was genuinely suggesting that we'd get more fans if Ben Thaler stopped making mistakes. 

And that is my fear - that the RFL uses these many surveys as a way of doing market research "on the cheap". 

Fan engagement means a lot of things to a lot of people and whilst it's important to at least understand what their wants and needs are in their capacity of a fan, reading between the lines of some comments gives you the idea that it involves fans having a seat at the boardroom table and influencing decisions around the running of the club. With the greatest respect, I don't want that. Have you met most of our fans? They're idiots. 

I make this point regularly, my old Director at work used to dismiss surveys out of hand. He always said we should be interested in what customers do rather than what they say. 

Of course customers will say they want x, y and z - but if they are coming along and buying stuff then their opinion isn't that valuable. Those not coming are better to try and understand. 

I'm not as dismissive of them as him, they can serve a purpose, but we do need to be careful how they are used. 

A perfect example from this one - there was clearly a question asking if fans should have the final say - of course they will say yes! 

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