Superleague TV audience figures through the roof.

[Dave T]

Just now, Johnoco said:

I will go back to my original point....why is the game suddenly going to attract northerners now? What are they going to do that they didn't before ?

 

But this is the same for any growth. Why are we going to suddenly see people in other areas taking up RL?

The answer (whether talking about the North of England, Scotland, Wales, Canada, US, France) is that we are going to have to do things differently. Nobody is suggesting just do the same things. Naturally, we just cant get agreement on what should be done to grow the game.

[glossop saint]

I might be wrong but I get the impression that when some people say we need to focus on the North they generally mean on their club, or within 10 miles of that. Often some of these same people are generally hostile to other northern but not heartland clubs, Newcastle, Sheffield, Manchester Rangers to mention a few.

If people want to 'focus' on the North then what do they mean by that? Increased funding for Northern expansion teams? Increased salary cap to attract players? Protection from relegation?

Or do they only want to focus on grass roots? In which case how are they suggesting to support the development of the game in Stockport, Preston or Middlesborough?

[iffleyox]

15 hours ago, dealwithit said:

Speaking of perceptions, as a casual viewer I always find it very difficult watching a Castleford home match on TV. The lighting seems poor, the stadium roof looks awful and it just gives a very working class village vibe. If you’re a casual viewer from a non heartlands area with no local club, it’s likely that if you flicked on the TV and saw a Cas home match on that you might stick around for long. 
 

I don't know, I'm a casual viewer from a non heartlands area with no local club and I like watching Cas on TV. Even better is being there live, when it's the best atmosphere in Super League. And I don't even support them.

[Damien]

22 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

I might be wrong but I get the impression that when some people say we need to focus on the North they generally mean on their club, or within 10 miles of that. Often some of these same people are generally hostile to other northern but not heartland clubs, Newcastle, Sheffield, Manchester Rangers to mention a few.

If people want to 'focus' on the North then what do they mean by that? Increased funding for Northern expansion teams? Increased salary cap to attract players? Protection from relegation?

Or do they only want to focus on grass roots? In which case how are they suggesting to support the development of the game in Stockport, Preston or Middlesborough?

A very good point.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

16 hours ago, M j M said:

Nah we know from Sky and the games they choose that they absolutely loathe the swathes of empty seats, not so much the poorer grounds (although I'm sure they prefer more modern tv facilities). It might freak you out for some reason but it doesn't the casual viewer.

The ground also a great atmosphere when there live

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, iffleyox said:

I don't know, I'm a casual viewer from a non heartlands area with no local club and I like watching Cas on TV. Even better is being there live, when it's the best atmosphere in Super League. And I don't even support them.

Agreed...i don't think it looks bad on TV compared to an empty John Smith stadium

[iffleyox]

5 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Agreed...i don't think it looks bad on TV compared to an empty John Smith stadium

exactly, ramshackle ground full to bursting, or half empty flat pack identikit stadium? There's a reason baseball fans like Fenway Park, or (when it was still clinging on) football fans envied Southampton having the Dell. 

Wheldon Road has got atmosphere in buckets. Probably rainwater as well, but it's a great place, and doesn't discredit the league on TV. 

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, Johnoco said:

You have more faith than me that anything will be done, except hope that Hull/Wigan/Leeds/Warrington get to the major finals. 

The discussion is becoming a bit muddled tbh mate. 

I'm not illustrating my confidence levels on my point - I am simply trying to articulate that I don't believe that growth can only be achieved in brand new areas. I don't think we have an either/or position.

If I had to measure where I think we were in our existing heartlands, I'd probably say we were performing at maybe a 4 or 5 out of 10 - which to me means there is a lot of room for improvement - and if we nail that improvement, that means we can drive a lot of growth. In much the same way that the RU prem has delivered growth by improving the strength of its current clubs, rather than believing it needs clubs from across the Atlantic to do so. 

But if you were to ask me how we are doing on the expansion front I'd probably say we are at a 1 or 2 out of 10 - I don't go for the semantics around the French clubs being heartland or expansion - expansion in the context I am discussing here means widening the footprint of Super League - and Catalans and Toulouse absolutely do that (as did London and Paris originally). 

The challenge comes on how you get those scores up from 5 and 2, an where you focus your effort and money. In reality, you get more bang for your buck focusing on the warmer areas - to an extent it is a numbers game and we still have more than enough untouched population in existing areas - hence my belief that there is plenty of scope for growth here. But as a genuine expansion fan, I don't believe we can ignore the opportunities presented by tapping into new areas. I am more of the opinion this is through a slow burner of grassroots, educational bodies, youth organisations etc. with the view that we are planting the seeds for the future. 

But your overall point that we need to do things differently is spot on, and I don't really think anybody disagrees - in fact almost every thread on here is about doing things differently.

We do however need to add a dose of realism - we do do things differently all the time. Warrington didn't go from 3k at Wilderspool to 10k at the HJ by doing the same things, Saints didn't grow into one of the biggest clubs in the game by doing the same things, Bradford didn't grow (and then fall) by doing the same things. We didn't deliver the biggest World Cup in history in 2013 by doing the same things (and likely to be far bigger next year!), Catalans didn't come into the league by accident, nor Toulouse, Newcastle are growing by doing things differently. 

We need to be careful that we don't repeat a false narrative. Things are happening - but I do understand your pessimism when we look at some of the rubbish parts!

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, glossop saint said:

I might be wrong but I get the impression that when some people say we need to focus on the North they generally mean on their club, or within 10 miles of that. Often some of these same people are generally hostile to other northern but not heartland clubs, Newcastle, Sheffield, Manchester Rangers to mention a few.

If people want to 'focus' on the North then what do they mean by that? Increased funding for Northern expansion teams? Increased salary cap to attract players? Protection from relegation?

Or do they only want to focus on grass roots? In which case how are they suggesting to support the development of the game in Stockport, Preston or Middlesborough?

I think that is right about some people. But I pretty much guarantee that if you got external 'experts' in and said we have £10m to spend what should we do with it to get the best return - they would not say spend it on non-RL areas. You would get the best return squeezing the likes of Leeds more. 

On your 2nd question - a perfect example of focusing on the North is the 2021 World Cup. the geographical footprint is vastly reduced from 2013, and by all current indicators it will smash that tournament out of the park.

An example of how weak we still are in our heartlands is when England played NZ at Elland Road a couple of years ago - we spent the day in Leeds City Centre. There was an England RU game that weekend in London, yet all the Leeds pubs had RU branding all over them, and many pubs were advertising the RU, with no mention of the RL game happening a mile up the road. We have a long way to go in the heartlands - there is plenty growth to be had.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, iffleyox said:

exactly, ramshackle ground full to bursting, or half empty flat pack identikit stadium? There's a reason baseball fans like Fenway Park, or (when it was still clinging on) football fans envied Southampton having the Dell. 

Wheldon Road has got atmosphere in buckets. Probably rainwater as well, but it's a great place, and doesn't discredit the league on TV. 

I have to agree. As a fanbase we have become a little obsessed about facilities and spreadsheet scores. We then use anecdotal claims to make points - yet Cas games pull in perfectly fine numbers of viewers on Sky Sports - I agree with your point that is always comes across pretty well. 

Facilities are for the attending fans, and poor ones should hamper your ability to generate income - if you can somehow bat above your average in poor facilities, great - but my view is that at some stage there is a tipping point where it becomes a burden. But that is up to the likes of Cas to manage - i'd expect it to drag them down at some stage, but so far they are doing ok, and far better than some clubs with better facilities.

[DC77]

1 hour ago, iffleyox said:

exactly, ramshackle ground full to bursting, or half empty flat pack identikit stadium? There's a reason baseball fans like Fenway Park, or (when it was still clinging on) football fans envied Southampton having the Dell. 

Wheldon Road has got atmosphere in buckets. Probably rainwater as well, but it's a great place, and doesn't discredit the league on TV. 

Couldn’t agree more.

The one ground I miss most is Highbury. The two goal ends (North Bank, the clock End), the tight pitch, the marble halls, that place was Arsenal. Now they have a generic bowl with no character. It could be anyone’s stadium. Arsene Wenger spoke about this last year:

“I moved from Highbury, which was similar to Anfield, but there was a soul in the stadium. We built a new stadium but we never found our soul – we left our soul at Highbury”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsene-wenger-admits-arsenal-lost-21312779

On the character of Fenway Park, that’s the reason the same owners kept Anfield as opposed to a new generic bowl in Stanley Park. You cannot replace character.

If you are going to build a new stadium (which should be a last resort) then priority #1 should be make sure it’s unique, that it could only be the home of the team in question. If you remove all the team signs from inside the stadium, blindfold a person and put them in the middle of the field, remove blindfold, and they don’t know where they are, that’s a ###### stadium (which applies to many). There’s nothing worse or as depressing as identikit stadiums.

 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, DC77 said:

There’s nothing worse or as depressing as identikit stadiums.

 

I think that's taking it a bit far.

I'd much rather go to a match at the Halliwell Jones than Belle Vue.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, iffleyox said:

exactly, ramshackle ground full to bursting, or half empty flat pack identikit stadium? There's a reason baseball fans like Fenway Park, or (when it was still clinging on) football fans envied Southampton having the Dell. 

Wheldon Road has got atmosphere in buckets. Probably rainwater as well, but it's a great place, and doesn't discredit the league on TV. 

Anfield, Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge, Elland Road are the way to go. Modernise and redevelop what you have got as best you can. In Super League we've had only Leeds and Hull KR do that to any significant extent (Widnes possibly too but I think that is pushing it). Tottenham are probably the first of the modern era of stadia to address for the soulless bowl syndrome by having the big "kop" end.

###### grounds cost clubs money. Cas and Wakey haemorrhage funds just to keep the ground viable each year. It was costing Leeds a 6 figure sum just to keep the South Stand in a useable state before the renovation. Undoubtedly the state of the grounds hold the clubs back.

I wholeheartedly agree that grounds with tradition and soul trump soulless bowls or identikit flatpacks. But you still have to modernise gradually and ultimately that hasn't happened at Wakey and particularly Castleford for a long time.

[glossop saint]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I think that is right about some people. But I pretty much guarantee that if you got external 'experts' in and said we have £10m to spend what should we do with it to get the best return - they would not say spend it on non-RL areas. You would get the best return squeezing the likes of Leeds more. 

On your 2nd question - a perfect example of focusing on the North is the 2021 World Cup. the geographical footprint is vastly reduced from 2013, and by all current indicators it will smash that tournament out of the park.

An example of how weak we still are in our heartlands is when England played NZ at Elland Road a couple of years ago - we spent the day in Leeds City Centre. There was an England RU game that weekend in London, yet all the Leeds pubs had RU branding all over them, and many pubs were advertising the RU, with no mention of the RL game happening a mile up the road. We have a long way to go in the heartlands - there is plenty growth to be had.

I don't doubt that there are gains to be made in the heartlands. I think you are probably right with saying that it is 5/10 in terms of grading. I would however be more inclined to give Coventry,  skolars, or crusaders £10m than Keighley or Oldham. I wonder how many potential fans there are in the heartlands who do not know the game exists. I am certain there are lots of potential fans in none heartland areas.

Good point, the RLWC is focusing on the heartlands. Yet still some people complain about how the heartlands are being neglected for expansion teams. How much more focus do they want?

I hope that the world cup does blow the previous one out of the water, I personally have many more tickets for this. However I think that the last one offered opportunities that were failed to be taken. I hope that they don't make the same mistakes again.

[yipyee]

On 23/09/2021 at 13:24, Davo5 said:

Hope this isn’t classed as too positive 

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/super-league-reveals-record-audiences-43486/?fbclid=IwAR0RLrcv5SyVnqpynHTR5qhxlFzxDUtznP2LM46CVjmcN07FdB39VdDbtIg

Well I suppose this can be cross referenced to the thread on 'should we be worried by the fall in attendances' well no as everyone is watching from home it would seem