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Just now, GUBRATS said:

And ?

It's relevant as, at the time, there were lengthy debates about the integrity of the competition and how turbo was killing exciting and real driving.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

And ?

Look, if you want your little vintage merry go round then knock yourself out. But it's based, as ever, on nostalgia for a time when people then were moaning pretty much exactly the same as they are now. Only then they were harking back to the glorious 50s and 60s when racing was real and dangerous.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Some very strong and angry opinions being expressed here about the decisions of the Race Director etc. despite the success or otherwise of any appeals. Pretty sure I've seen the word "corrupt" used.  You don't suppose the Race Director ever had any relatives involved at high level in SuperLeague or the RFL do you? 

“The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”
 Friedrich Nietzsche

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11 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Look, if you want your little vintage merry go round then knock yourself out. But it's based, as ever, on nostalgia for a time when people then were moaning pretty much exactly the same as they are now. Only then they were harking back to the glorious 50s and 60s when racing was real and dangerous.

What relevance does some cars having a turbo and some not ? 

What I have suggested is a reduction in size of the cars , they are 40% bigger now than when Lewis Hamilton first drove a F1 car , this will allow for more overtaking without all the complaining we are now seeing of drivers being forced off the track 

Also that the cars become more the responsibility of the drivers than an engineer sat on the pit wall , more chances of driver error , more technology doesn't necessarily mean better racing 

Feel free to post more unrelative nonsense in yet more petty point scoring if you wish , I've got work to do , enjoy your day on TotalRL 

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

What do you suggest they now do about it ?

As I said above there's nothing that can realistically be done as stripping Verstappen of the title now would make even more of a mess.

In this incident the problem is that none of Hamilton, Verstappen, Mercedes or Red Bull did anything wrong. Verstappen was put in a position to win and he did and that's not his fault.

But for the title to be decided by an incorrect application of basic rules by the race director is absolutely disastrous for the sport's integrity and Mercedes I think will have to settle for Masi being removed from his position - something that almost all the drivers and Team Principals want anyway.

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As a signed up member of the Lewis Hamilton fan club since I was 9 or 10, the person I actually feel most sorry for in all this is Max Verstappen.

His maiden title, the biggest achievement of his career so far, is forever going to have the "yeah but the FIA gave you that one" hanging over it. An asterisk if you will. All the talk about it, every comment on social media, are all tinged with that. 

When he wins a second title, the question will inevitably come "does that feel better to win that way?", which is as much a shame as it is a legitimate question. 

Max would have been a deserving winner of the title, but he didn't deserve it like that.

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F1 needs to get a grip of things quickly here. Full independent inquiry, the works.

F1 have spent over half a decade trying to encourage more teams and manufacturers to join F1. They are desperate for new blood in the sport; introducing cost caps, changing Engine regulations, standard parts, increasing the profile of the sport for TV rights etc.

They have already lost Honda, they're likely losing Gene Haas, there are doubts about Renault constantly, a fifth of the teams are only there because one man wants them to be; they are desperate to have the likes of Audi and Porsche come onboard.

But why would they come along? At the even still considerable cost of circa £135 million, if a Race Director can choose who wins a race at a whim and manufacture rules out of thin air. Sponsors don't invest in WWE Wrestlers because it isn't competitive. What is the point in "going racing" if the rules can be changed to support one driver instantly to render 57 of 58 laps entirely pointless?

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I should also add that despite being 37 in January, Lewis is still the "Future" of F1, far more than even Max, Lando or Charles Leclerc in some ways. F1 want him as a face of the sport for years to come.

He's a champion and symbol of diversity in a "sport" dearly lacking it in basically every metric - class, race, sexual orientation. He has the ability to drive change and say things that others in and around the sport cannot. Lewis' programmes in increasing access and opportunity are important factors. He is also quite clearly very influential in Mercedes, who hold massive sway with being one of the largest and most successful teams and supplying nearly half the grid with engines. He is, alongside Seb Vettel, environmentally conscious; which is a major factor for F1 ("Hybrid since 2014/the World's Most Efficient Engine") going forward. They want Lewis on board post racing retirement to ensure he is inside the tent weeing out rather than outside weeing in, if nothing else!

The cynic in me would suggest they haven't put Lewis and Max next to eachother for the "we race as one" bit at the start of a race as it would be a powerful statement about the character of the two men - and would damage MV33 in certain markets F1 is keen to break into. And we have seen this season and with the rule changes for next year how important commercial/entertainment markets are for F1...

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3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

As a signed up member of the Lewis Hamilton fan club since I was 9 or 10, the person I actually feel most sorry for in all this is Max Verstappen.

His maiden title, the biggest achievement of his career so far, is forever going to have the "yeah but the FIA gave you that one" hanging over it. An asterisk if you will. All the talk about it, every comment on social media, are all tinged with that. 

When he wins a second title, the question will inevitably come "does that feel better to win that way?", which is as much a shame as it is a legitimate question. 

Max would have been a deserving winner of the title, but he didn't deserve it like that.

But you don't always get what you deserve , otherwise I'd still be a millionaire 😉

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7 hours ago, M j M said:

As I said above there's nothing that can realistically be done as stripping Verstappen of the title now would make even more of a mess.

In this incident the problem is that none of Hamilton, Verstappen, Mercedes or Red Bull did anything wrong. Verstappen was put in a position to win and he did and that's not his fault.

But for the title to be decided by an incorrect application of basic rules by the race director is absolutely disastrous for the sport's integrity and Mercedes I think will have to settle for Masi being removed from his position - something that almost all the drivers and Team Principals want anyway.

Exactly , so time for Mercedes to stop going on about it and accept it , there is nothing that can be changed , I disagree with what Masi did , but he did it , and you can't rerun a race 

But it is also time for changes in how the sport operates going forward 

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58 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Exactly , so time for Mercedes to stop going on about it and accept it , there is nothing that can be changed , I disagree with what Masi did , but he did it , and you can't rerun a race 

But it is also time for changes in how the sport operates going forward 

But there's every chance the only way there will be the sort of change required is if the appeal is pushed forward and the awkward questions asked.

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39 minutes ago, M j M said:

But there's every chance the only way there will be the sort of change required is if the appeal is pushed forward and the awkward questions asked.

The sort of change where the cars actually fit on the track , or where a driver's title is a genuine driver's title and not just because his car is drastically faster than anybody else's , and not just one season , but almost a whole decade 

Reduce the technology , bring down the cost , simplify the aerodynamics put the emphasis on the driver , get rid of the ' boost buttons ' 

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4 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

The sort of change where the cars actually fit on the track , or where a driver's title is a genuine driver's title and not just because his car is drastically faster than anybody else's , and not just one season , but almost a whole decade 

Reduce the technology , bring down the cost , simplify the aerodynamics put the emphasis on the driver , get rid of the ' boost buttons ' 

I know you're only a part timer, but they are doing all of that next year.

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4 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

where a driver's title is a genuine driver's title and not just because his car is drastically faster than anybody else's

Go watch spec series like Indycar or F2 then? 

F1 is competitive engineering and racing. There are three components, the Driver, the Car, and the Team. Each play an important role in any victory and each compliments eachother. 

A great driver might be able to drag an average car onwards, a good team can make strategy decisions that win races, a good car can make an OK driver a title contender. If all 3 are on song however, then we see a truly magnificent achievement bear fruit which compliments eachother in a positive feedback loop.

Mercedes didn't just wake up with the best car for the past 8 years. Red Bull didn't go from comfortably the third best team in 2014 to challenging for the constructors in 2021 overnight. 

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6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Go watch spec series like Indycar or F2 then? 

F1 is competitive engineering and racing. There are three components, the Driver, the Car, and the Team. Each play an important role in any victory and each compliments eachother. 

A great driver might be able to drag an average car onwards, a good team can make strategy decisions that win races, a good car can make an OK driver a title contender. If all 3 are on song however, then we see a truly magnificent achievement bear fruit which compliments eachother in a positive feedback loop.

Mercedes didn't just wake up with the best car for the past 8 years. Red Bull didn't go from comfortably the third best team in 2014 to challenging for the constructors in 2021 overnight. 

As an aside to this, you should watch F2 anyway because it’s bloody awesome!

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14 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

The sort of change where the cars actually fit on the track , or where a driver's title is a genuine driver's title and not just because his car is drastically faster than anybody else's , and not just one season , but almost a whole decade 

Reduce the technology , bring down the cost , simplify the aerodynamics put the emphasis on the driver , get rid of the ' boost buttons ' 

Such formula races already exist, I believe .

“The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”
 Friedrich Nietzsche

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Who decides what,if any,  F1 changes "are required"?

“The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”
 Friedrich Nietzsche

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9 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Go watch spec series like Indycar or F2 then? 

F1 is competitive engineering and racing. There are three components, the Driver, the Car, and the Team. Each play an important role in any victory and each compliments eachother. 

A great driver might be able to drag an average car onwards, a good team can make strategy decisions that win races, a good car can make an OK driver a title contender. If all 3 are on song however, then we see a truly magnificent achievement bear fruit which compliments eachother in a positive feedback loop.

Mercedes didn't just wake up with the best car for the past 8 years. Red Bull didn't go from comfortably the third best team in 2014 to challenging for the constructors in 2021 overnight. 

Indeed. Having been involved to some peripheral extent over the years with Tyrrell, Wirth, Red Bull, Ferrari (CFD ) Jordan etc over the use of PLM software, the engineering challenges are immense. Meeting these challenges both in the long term and the short term generates lessons for advanced manufacturing across many sectors. The ability to identify problems, solve them, manufacture test and gain approval for them in the time between the end of one race and the start of practice for the next one is critical. 

“The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”
 Friedrich Nietzsche

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59 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Who decides what,if any,  F1 changes "are required"?

Technically the FIA.

In reality, the teams do have some power because if a large number want something to happen that influence can't be ignored (and particularly if it includes two of Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull).

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Pretty damning for the FIA to declare that they are conducting an investigation because the Championship has been "tarnished" and to "preserve the competitive nature of our sport".

Logically that would mean the FIA are actually stating that Verstappen's Championship is tarnished and that the competitive nature of the sport has been brought into question by the finale. That's pretty strong stuff by their standards.

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2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Pretty damning for the FIA to declare that they are conducting an investigation because the Championship has been "tarnished" and to "preserve the competitive nature of our sport".

Logically that would mean the FIA are actually stating that Verstappen's Championship is tarnished and that the competitive nature of the sport has been brought into question by the finale. That's pretty strong stuff by their standards.

Still dances around the issue a bit talking about "misunderstanding" however they could hardly go much further without admitting what is obvious - that by not applying the rules properly the race director determined who won the championship.

Anyway here is Suzie Wolff totally not speaking at all for her husband in a statement released an hour before the official Mercedes one withdrawing the appeal.

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2 hours ago, M j M said:

Can't wait to see the video of this press conference.

 

Actual photo of Mercedes reading out their statement.

Twitter celebrates Come Dine With Me's most cringeworthy episode one year on

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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  • ckn changed the title to F1

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