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2 hours ago, M j M said:

Can't wait to see the video of this press conference.

 

As I put earlier in this thread, this is the real issue for the F1 organisers that have been desperate for new manufacturers to come in for years now. If success in the sport is seen as secondary to entertainment, then they won't want to be involved.

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On 12/12/2021 at 19:13, Bedford Roughyed said:

I think the idea of letting the season finish as a race is fine, but that didn't happen.  As soon as you decide it was a 1 lap sprint, the race was over.  

But what if merc had followed red bulls lead in the tyre dept,would max have got past lewis if he were on same tyres?far too much headphone throwing tantrums from those who handed it on a plate to max(they knew they had thrown it away), race director made a choice he had the power to do,right or wrong it made a few thousand fans sit up and enjoy. far too much bleeting from merc all season long.

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26 minutes ago, silverback said:

But what if merc had followed red bulls lead in the tyre dept,would max have got past lewis if he were on same tyres?far too much headphone throwing tantrums from those who handed it on a plate to max(they knew they had thrown it away), race director made a choice he had the power to do,right or wrong it made a few thousand fans sit up and enjoy. far too much bleeting from merc all season long.

Sorry but what on earth are you talking about? Mercedes' strategy was perfect and any changes to it would have put Hamilton behind Verstappen. 

The whole point is the race director made a choice that wasn't open to him in the rules. Which even the FAI have now effectively acknowledged.

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31 minutes ago, silverback said:

But what if merc had followed red bulls lead in the tyre dept,would max have got past lewis if he were on same tyres?far too much headphone throwing tantrums from those who handed it on a plate to max(they knew they had thrown it away), race director made a choice he had the power to do,right or wrong it made a few thousand fans sit up and enjoy. far too much bleeting from merc all season long.

The red bull owner said the tyre change was the defining moment and that he was surprised Hamilton did not do the same.

Of course it is easier to blame the officials than accept any responsibility.

 

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12 minutes ago, M j M said:

Sorry but what on earth are you talking about? Mercedes' strategy was perfect and any changes to it would have put Hamilton behind Verstappen. 

The whole point is the race director made a choice that wasn't open to him in the rules. Which even the FAI have now effectively acknowledged.

The Formula 1.com website explains why the Stewards threw out the Mercedes Appeal :

The stewards threw out this appeal, arguing that article 48.12 was overridden by article 48.13, which states:

When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the Safety Car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.

Having considered the various statements made by the parties the Stewards determine the following:

That Article 15.3 allows the Race Director to control the use of the Safety Car, which in our determination includes its deployment and withdrawal. That although Article 48.12 may not have been applied fully, in relation to the Safety Car returning to the pits at the end of the following lap, Article 48.13 overrides that and once the message “Safety Car in this lap” has been displayed, it is mandatory to withdraw the Safety Car at the end of that lap.

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59 minutes ago, silverback said:

But what if merc had followed red bulls lead in the tyre dept,would max have got past lewis if he were on same tyres?

If Hamilton had gone into the pits to change tyres, Verstappen would have took the lead.  

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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1 hour ago, silverback said:

But what if merc had followed red bulls lead in the tyre dept,would max have got past lewis if he were on same tyres?far too much headphone throwing tantrums from those who handed it on a plate to max(they knew they had thrown it away), race director made a choice he had the power to do,right or wrong it made a few thousand fans sit up and enjoy. far too much bleeting from merc all season long.

If Mercedes had pitted Lewis , Red Bull would have kept Max out , it is one of the advantages of being in 2 be position 

Both team principals tried to influence the race director 

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1 hour ago, M j M said:

Sorry but what on earth are you talking about? Mercedes' strategy was perfect and any changes to it would have put Hamilton behind Verstappen. 

The whole point is the race director made a choice that wasn't open to him in the rules. Which even the FAI have now effectively acknowledged.

I'd disagree about perfect , there was no reason to pit Hamilton straight after Max , all it did was put Lewis behind Perez , and we saw what happened there , other than that they had no option but to do what they did 

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1 hour ago, Niels said:

The red bull owner said the tyre change was the defining moment and that he was surprised Hamilton did not do the same.

Of course it is easier to blame the officials than accept any responsibility.

 

1. You don't mean the Red Bull owner.

2. He's saying that to lure in gullible people who don't understand F1 tactics.

3. It would have been the biggest tactical  blunder I've ever seen in F1 to pit Hamilton. It would have been absurd, madness.

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13 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I'd disagree about perfect , there was no reason to pit Hamilton straight after Max , all it did was put Lewis behind Perez , and we saw what happened there , other than that they had no option but to do what they did 

I think it was the right decision to do their pit stop when they did. Agree it put him behind Perez but they weren't so far clear of Verstappen that they had huge choices.  They could have left it another lap or so but the very last thing they wanted, even with a pace advantage, was to have to overtake Verstappen again given how aggressive his defence is. So the neutral and easiest option was to box off any threat from that even if the stop was slightly earlier than optimal.

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1 hour ago, Niels said:

The Formula 1.com website explains why the Stewards threw out the Mercedes Appeal :

The stewards threw out this appeal, arguing that article 48.12 was overridden by article 48.13, which states:

When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the Safety Car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.

Having considered the various statements made by the parties the Stewards determine the following:

That Article 15.3 allows the Race Director to control the use of the Safety Car, which in our determination includes its deployment and withdrawal. That although Article 48.12 may not have been applied fully, in relation to the Safety Car returning to the pits at the end of the following lap, Article 48.13 overrides that and once the message “Safety Car in this lap” has been displayed, it is mandatory to withdraw the Safety Car at the end of that lap.

Nah, stop being silly. Nobody in F1 really thinks this was part of the rules. Of course the FIA had to cover off the appeal with this fig leaf but just listen to the driver and pit lane radio from other teams to remind yourself of what people inside the sport really thought of this decision.

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18 minutes ago, M j M said:

I think it was the right decision to do their pit stop when they did. Agree it put him behind Perez but they weren't so far clear of Verstappen that they had huge choices.  They could have left it another lap or so but the very last thing they wanted, even with a pace advantage, was to have to overtake Verstappen again given how aggressive his defence is. So the neutral and easiest option was to box off any threat from that even if the stop was slightly earlier than optimal.

So instead of running their own race , they were shadowing Max , did they really think Max was going to take him out Schumacher style ? 

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8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So instead of running their own race , they were shadowing Max , did they really think Max was going to take him out Schumacher style ? 

That's what the leading teams always do - not sure why you think that is odd? If you're ahead you mitigate threats to your position, you certainly don't surrender track position if you don't need to. And yes, the lead-in to this race was dominated by discussions of whether Verstappen would take out Hamilton if he had the chance to. Once Hamilton got ahead at the start, pitting late and putting him back behind again would have been seen as one of the biggest most inept blunders in F1 history.

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29 minutes ago, M j M said:

Nah, stop being silly. Nobody in F1 really thinks this was part of the rules. Of course the FIA had to cover off the appeal with this fig leaf but just listen to the driver and pit lane radio from other teams to remind yourself of what people inside the sport really thought of this decision.

It pretty much confused quite a few of the drivers .....

 

Wibble

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12 minutes ago, voteronniegibbs said:

It pretty much confused quite a few of the drivers .....

 

Like how "he [Masi]'s just p!ssing this thing up" from Vettel is interpreted in the subtitles as "he's just pacing this thing up" as if it was a racing comment.

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18 minutes ago, M j M said:

That's what the leading teams always do - not sure why you think that is odd? If you're ahead you mitigate threats to your position, you certainly don't surrender track position if you don't need to. And yes, the lead-in to this race was dominated by discussions of whether Verstappen would take out Hamilton if he had the chance to. Once Hamilton got ahead at the start, pitting late and putting him back behind again would have been seen as one of the biggest most inept blunders in F1 history.

I agree , track position is everything , but given Lewis was on mediums and Max and Perez were on softs , I'd have thought they'd have left him out another 7/8 laps then had a genuine free run in to the end , Red Bull needed safeties , and they got them 

Unfortunately there is no realistic solution once the race was restarted in the way it was

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5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I agree , track position is everything , but given Lewis was on mediums and Max and Perez were on softs , I'd have thought they'd have left him out another 7/8 laps then had a genuine free run in to the end , Red Bull needed safeties , and they got them 

Unfortunately there is no realistic solution once the race was restarted in the way it was

I can't remember how far ahead Hamilton was of Verstappen when they both pitted but with the pace advantage Verstappen would have had on new tyres another seven laps would probably have put Hamilton behind after pitting. That would have been a terrible move.

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2 minutes ago, M j M said:

I can't remember how far ahead Hamilton was of Verstappen when they both pitted but with the pace advantage Verstappen would have had on new tyres another seven laps would probably have put Hamilton behind after pitting. That would have been a terrible move.

8 seconds , he lost 7 trying to get past Perez , so 8 seconds plus the pit stop , he'd have been 30 odd seconds in front of Max , not forgetting he was faster on mediums than Max was on softs , he was leaving Perez at 2 seconds a lap , Perez's tyres wouldn't have lasted if he'd have been trying to stay within a pit stop of Lewis 

Merc cocked up 

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1 minute ago, M j M said:

Sorry but that's really not the case. Every other team would have done exactly the same.

And eight laps younger tyres would have made no difference at the end anyway.

In the end no , in hindsight , unless of course a bigger lead would have meant Lewis could have pitted and still retained the lead , Lewis was taking 8/10ths a lap out of Max on mediums ,while Max was on softs , so obviously Lewis's tyres were fine , he could have taken Perez out of the equation with another 6/7 laps , then built a lead without any fear of letting Max anywhere near him 

They cocked up out of fear 

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Seems to me there's a lot of people posting here that don't watch F1 very often, or of they do they don't understand it.

Simply put, the rules as they are written meant that the race would have finished under the safety car.

Red Bull only pitted because they literally couldn't lose. If the race ended under safety car then oh well. If it doesn't they have fresh tyres. That's always the case; driver behind always benefits more from changing conditions. Remember Russia? Lando Norris leading as the weather changes - it was far more risky for him to pit and give up track position than the guy behind who can pit and not lose position (but also potentially gains a position).

Another thing not many people are talking is that Bottas was nowhere and therefore no threat to Max/RB. If Bottas was 3rd then Max doesn't pit under the safety car because it would put him behind.

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45 minutes ago, andyscoot said:

Another thing not many people are talking is that Bottas was nowhere and therefore no threat to Max/RB. If Bottas was 3rd then Max doesn't pit under the safety car because it would put him behind.

Agreed, this is a key point a place where the Mercedes team (or one member of it anyway) really did fail over Saturday/Sunday. It gets overlooked a little because he's such a nice guy but Bottas simply wasn't there when his team-mate needed him. In a Mercedes with no technical problems you really shouldn't be messing around qualifying sixth and not making any progress in the race.

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Moving forward, I'd suggest a new rule for safety car situations. Just implement the pit lane speed limiters, no pitstops allowed until racing recommences. Everyone holds station, job done. 

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17 hours ago, andyscoot said:

Seems to me there's a lot of people posting here that don't watch F1 very often, or of they do they don't understand it.

Simply put, the rules as they are written meant that the race would have finished under the safety car.

Red Bull only pitted because they literally couldn't lose. If the race ended under safety car then oh well. If it doesn't they have fresh tyres. That's always the case; driver behind always benefits more from changing conditions. Remember Russia? Lando Norris leading as the weather changes - it was far more risky for him to pit and give up track position than the guy behind who can pit and not lose position (but also potentially gains a position).

Another thing not many people are talking is that Bottas was nowhere and therefore no threat to Max/RB. If Bottas was 3rd then Max doesn't pit under the safety car because it would put him behind.

When the safety car came out that was ' it ' as far as I could see , Lewis finishes behind it and wins , what Masi did was wrong , but he did it and Max was first over the finish line , not right but a fact , I don't really see what anybody can do about it 

Bottas just wasn't a ' player ' , but Perez was , mercedes should have avoided all and any interaction with either Red Bull once they'd taken the lead , but they didn't , poor strategy , if they'd have been cleverer they might have been able to negate a safety car and win the race 

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