Ben Flower comes out of retirement :)

[Dunbar]

50 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Absolutely Leigh wanted Flower to play in Super League on a Championship wage, his contract stated it was for Championship Rugby League. Leigh tried to bully Flower into playing Super League on this deal, something the RFL should block anyway, all Super League players should have a Super League contract. Well done to Ben Flower for demanding a Super League contract and a Super League wage to play in Super League, it’s the Leigh club who acted disgracefully in this dispute.

Just to be clear, whatever the contract situation, I think he should have played.

He was an experienced Super League player in a team suddenly propelled into the top tier.  He would have seen players struggle and fans disappointed with results.

He may have been in the right contractually ('may', as in I don't know) but in his situation I would have played and tried my best for the team and the fans.  Sometimes integrity trumps contract law... especially when you can decide which way you want to go.

[Harry Stottle]

44 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Absolutely Leigh wanted Flower to play in Super League on a Championship wage, his contract stated it was for Championship Rugby League. Leigh tried to bully Flower into playing Super League on this deal, something the RFL should block anyway, all Super League players should have a Super League contract. Well done to Ben Flower for demanding a Super League contract and a Super League wage to play in Super League, it’s the Leigh club who acted disgracefully in this dispute.

I will wager with you now his contract would have been far more valuable in remuneration terms than some of the player's who have turned out for Leeds Rhinos this past season. So please in your infinite wisdom tell us all what a SL wage is? Not to long ago there was a thread on these pages stating some player's were on as little as £15K at some SL club's.

Didn't Luke Bristow DR from Fev to Leeds a while ago, it would be interesting to know if he got a wage increase for the games he played for Leeds whilst under contract to Fev.

 

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Just to be clear, whatever the contract situation, I think he should have played.

He was an experienced Super League player in a team suddenly propelled into the top tier.  He would have seen players struggle and fans disappointed with results.

He may have been in the right contractually ('may', as in I don't know) but in his situation I would have played and tried my best for the team and the fans.  Sometimes integrity trumps contract law... especially when you can decide which way you want to go.

I doubt "Integrity" is a word used in Ben Flower's vocabulary.

[gingerjon]

43 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Just to be clear, whatever the contract situation, I think he should have played.

He was an experienced Super League player in a team suddenly propelled into the top tier.  He would have seen players struggle and fans disappointed with results.

He may have been in the right contractually ('may', as in I don't know) but in his situation I would have played and tried my best for the team and the fans.  Sometimes integrity trumps contract law... especially when you can decide which way you want to go.

Maybe he looked at how the rest of the team were being treated and just decided what's the point?

After all, he'd only have ended up being dumped on in the matchday programme by the club's owner anyway.

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Maybe he looked at how the rest of the team were being treated and just decided what's the point?

After all, he'd only have ended up being dumped on in the matchday programme by the club's owner anyway.

Well there is that of course.  When you look at the Flower incident in isolation and then look at it within the culture of the overall club and how the owner treats the players in public then you may come to a different conclusion.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Well there is that of course.  When you look at the Flower incident in isolation and then look at it within the culture of the overall club and how the owner treats the players in public then you may come to a different conclusion.

What do you really know about the culture of the overall club?

[The Frying Scotsman]

On 28/09/2021 at 10:19, Harry Stottle said:

he showed his true colours about what kind of man he is when he refused to play for Wales, I seem to recall the standard of his to be teammate's were not to his liking, or words to that effect was his reasoning. 

How much do Wales RL pay per match, out of interest?

The guy was a professional athlete. If he didn't want to risk injury (and loss of career/earnings) putting his body on the line for "Wales Rugby League" in a game surrounded by part-time semi-amateur players, with probably quite limited sports science support in a possibly quite unprofessional environment, that is absolutely up to him. I think most other professionals wouldn't blame him either. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Maybe he looked at how the rest of the team were being treated and just decided what's the point?

After all, he'd only have ended up being dumped on in the matchday programme by the club's owner anyway.

Enlighten me, how were the rest of the team being treated, given Flower refused to play from the begining of the season and the comment I assume you are referring to was made less than 2 weeks from the season's end.

But don't let that get in the way of any pre judgements and pre conceptions you may have, which are more often than not way off the mark, I should stick to handball if I was you.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

How much do Wales RL pay per match, out of interest?

The guy was a professional athlete. If he didn't want to risk injury (and loss of career/earnings) putting his body on the line for "Wales Rugby League" in a game surrounded by part-time semi-amateur players, with probably quite limited sports science support in a possibly quite unprofessional environment, that is absolutely up to him. I think most other professionals wouldn't blame him either. 

Fine if that is your take on it, I suppose non of your mates could rely on you for back-up.

[Damien]

I can certainly understand why Leigh fans are aggrieved at Flower but I do wonder if there is more to this than we don't know. It is simply unfathomable to me that a professional sportsmen does not want to play at the highest level that he can but maybe that speaks more about Flower than the vast majority of players. That said, based on what the Leigh fans have said, I can't see why he has still been getting paid if he has been refusing to play but as has been pointed out I'm sure there are ways around that.

There was a time at Wigan when Flower was an outstanding player and its a real shame that his time in the game has ended like this. For me he lost a lot of my respect when he wouldn't play for Wales and he let his fellow Welsh players down in the most condescending manner possible. Then obviously there was the Grand Final incident. Flower would have been nothing without the game of Rugby League and would have most likely been playing for some semi-professional Welsh backwater team. Its a pity he didn't want to give more back rather than just taking all he could.

[Hopping Mad]

During the union off season, Flower can turn out for Pontypool-based Torfaen Tigers ARLFC. Or won't he fancy it if he isn't getting paid?

Looks like Pontypool RU are splashing a bit of cash to get back to a decent level in the Welsh pyramid. Probably the main reason Flower was attracted to them.

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

What do you really know about the culture of the overall club?

Nothing more than I can infer from the owner slagging off the whole playing group in public.

I accept that I could be wrong and that all the people involved were totally fine with it.

[Hopping Mad]

48 minutes ago, Damien said:

IFlower would have been nothing without the game of Rugby League and would have most likely been playing for some semi-professional Welsh backwater team.

Like Pontypool, you mean?

[The Frying Scotsman]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Fine if that is your take on it, I suppose non of your mates could rely on you for back-up.

Just answer my question Harry. How much do Wales RL pay the players?

How much does this professional sportsman get paid for playing professional Rugby League for Wales? 

Thanks. (You must know, as you are able to judge him as "showing his true colours" and "what kind of man he is" based on his decision not to make himself available). 

#judgmental

 

[paulwalker71]

12 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

Like Pontypool, you mean?

Haha, I literally came here to say that!

Apparently Wales RL didn't meet his high standards - despite the fact that SL players like Regan Grace, Morgan Knowles, Elliot Kear, Craig Kopczak, Rhys Evans, Rhys Williams - among others - didn't seem to think that the Welsh set up presented a problem to their participation.

Remember when Flower - having not played for Wales for 5 years - threw his hat into the ring to play for Great Britain? 

https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/rugby-league/wigan-warriors-ben-flower-believes-hes-good-enough-great-britain-86338

Delusional

[Damien]

49 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

Like Pontypool, you mean?

Well yes, or even worse Bedwas were he came from,. However that would have been for the last 13 years and the prime of his career rather being at 33 and after making hundreds of thousands playing professional RL.

[sweaty craiq]

6 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Just to be clear, whatever the contract situation, I think he should have played.

He was an experienced Super League player in a team suddenly propelled into the top tier.  He would have seen players struggle and fans disappointed with results.

He may have been in the right contractually ('may', as in I don't know) but in his situation I would have played and tried my best for the team and the fans.  Sometimes integrity trumps contract law... especially when you can decide which way you want to go.

He signed a full time contract, if he then refused to sign a SL contract surely he would have left when  a SL place was given? If a club has a player on a FT championship contract and wins promotion - can they just rip them up saying its not applicable in SL?

[The Frying Scotsman]

3 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

Haha, I literally came here to say that!

Apparently Wales RL didn't meet his high standards - despite the fact that SL players like Regan Grace, Morgan Knowles, Elliot Kear, Craig Kopczak, Rhys Evans, Rhys Williams - among others - didn't seem to think that the Welsh set up presented a problem to their participation

Delusional

Really daft citing guys like Rhys Evans and Morgan Knowles as examples. They have played like 4 or 5 games for Wales if they are lucky.

Flower has played 17 matches for Wales. More than both these guys put together!  Maybe he was just fed up with it? Maybe he didn't feel the team was particularly Welsh (it isn't), or maybe he didn't feel that enthused about trotting out in front of 350 fans at a village rugby union ground, in a meaningless game?

Either way.... He played for the team a lot, and then one day decided it was no longer worth his while. Big deal - he is a professional, who was putting his body on the line when he played... It is his choice. 

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Really daft citing guys like Rhys Evans and Morgan Knowles as examples. They have played like 4 or 5 games for Wales if they are lucky.

Flower has played 17 matches for Wales. More than both these guys put together!  Maybe he was just fed up with it? Maybe he didn't feel the team was particularly Welsh (it isn't), or maybe he didn't feel that enthused about trotting out in front of 350 fans at a village rugby union ground, in a meaningless game?

Either way.... He played for the team a lot, and then one day decided it was no longer worth his while. Big deal - he is a professional, who was putting his body on the line when he played... It is his choice. 

But there is a thing called pride, perhaps he had a discussion with the man in the mirror and asked him would I and could I really help these guys out in the Red of MY COUNTRY, the reply from the guy looking back would be yes definatley but F*#€ Them.

I suspect the same guy he asked whether or not he should play for Leigh this season with the same response plus "you just sit back and take the money boyo"

[The Frying Scotsman]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

But there is a thing called pride, perhaps he had a discussion with the man in the mirror and asked him would I and could I really help these guys out in the Red of MY COUNTRY, the reply from the guy looking back would be yes definatley but F*#€ Them.

 

Harry. You have still not answered my question. How much do they get paid please? 

You are making judgements about him putting his body on the line as a professional. I assume therefore that you are aware of how much he gets paid for doing so. Otherwise you would be rambling ignorantly like some drunk down the working men's club, and I am sure you are not ignorant. So please could you answer my question, instead of making uninformed assertions about "my mates" who you know nothing about?

Also.... Why do you put "MY COUNTRY" in capitals? What if he cgaf about his country? What if he isn't remotely nationalistic?? Does it make him a bad person? Does it make him a worse professional?? Maybe he no longer identifies particularly closely as being Welsh.... Who knows?

Harry I have no idea how old you are, but your comments resonate like someone who is stuck in the 1980s when the Falklands War was on, and rugby league was played by guys who worked in a coalmine all week and picked up a few quid on the side. It's all "my country" this and "pride" that. Does the "red jersey of his country" pay for his kids' school clothes?  You honestly sound like you are stuck in a timewarp. You are one of the most judgemental people I have ever encountered. 

[fighting irish]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But there is a thing called pride, perhaps he had a discussion with the man in the mirror and asked him would I and could I really help these guys out in the Red of MY COUNTRY, the reply from the guy looking back would be yes definatley but F*#€ Them.

I suspect the same guy he asked whether or not he should play for Leigh this season with the same response plus "you just sit back and take the money boyo"

He's the archetypal ''Show me the money!'' Rod Tidwell (from the film Jerry McGuire) Harry.

It's all about the money maaaan.

Your Derek should never have signed him.

Anyone who's ever played this game knows very well, that if they don't want to be part of the team, they just won't give it their all.

All the money in the world, won't change that, so you might as well pay him peanuts (or better still, nothing at all). 

He's like the fool standing in front of the fireplace, insisting on heat but who won't put any wood in.

Always wondering why (and forever bemoaning the fact) he never fulfils his undeniable potential.

Let him go back to P'pool, it won't be long before he's on the bench again.

They'll spot his inner Rod Tidwell a mile off. 

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Harry. You have still not answered my question. How much do they get paid please? 

You are making judgements about him putting his body on the line as a professional. I assume therefore that you are aware of how much he gets paid for doing so. Otherwise you would be rambling ignorantly like some drunk down the working men's club, and I am sure you are not ignorant. So please could you answer my question, instead of making uninformed assertions about "my mates" who you know nothing about?

Also.... Why do you put "MY COUNTRY" in capitals? What if he cgaf about his country? What if he isn't remotely nationalistic?? Does it make him a bad person? Does it make him a worse professional?? Maybe he no longer identifies particularly closely as being Welsh.... Who knows?

Harry I have no idea how old you are, but your comments resonate like someone who is stuck in the 1980s when the Falklands War was on, and rugby league was played by guys who worked in a coalmine all week and picked up a few quid on the side. It's all "my country" this and "pride" that. Does the "red jersey of his country" pay for his kids' school clothes?  You honestly sound like you are stuck in a timewarp. You are one of the most judgemental people I have ever encountered. 

Your original question, not a clue.

I am not making judgements about him putting his body on the line, I am on about his attitude to do something most sportsmen would be proud and happy to do.

"Working men's club" hmm, that tells me for you to use that phrase it is something you consider lowly and most probably beneath you.

I mentioned your mates in respect to your comments in your original post, with your take on the point in discussion they could not depend on you, not the other way round.

MY COUNTRY was capitalised to get over a point I consider is very important, yes maybe I am wrong, but so could you be.

And remember when you accuse someone of doing something and you point a finger at them as you have done in my direction, there are always 3 fingers pointing back at yourself.

Have a look back over this thread, you will find yourself way down in the opinion stakes of the guy you seem to be Championing.

Bye, done with this discussion with you now.

[Wolford6]

On 29/09/2021 at 11:50, Hopping Mad said:

Like Pontypool, you mean?

If nothing else, Pontypool have the most picturesque ground in either code of rugby.

Their decline, just like that of Newbridge, Cross Keys and Ebbw Vale, owes much to the favouritism showed to Newport by the WRU.

[Hopping Mad]

2 hours ago, Wolford6 said:

If nothing else, Pontypool have the most picturesque ground in either code of rugby.

Their decline, just like that of Newbridge, Cross Keys and Ebbw Vale, owes much to the favouritism showed to Newport by the WRU.

That's a big claim! I've been to Pontypool Park. Not hugely impressed with its setting. In terms of scenery and attractiveness of location, I'd put one or two of the Scottish Borders RU grounds - Jed-Forest and Melrose, certainly - well ahead of Pontypool RU.

I'd say there's a few amateur rugby league clubs in more favourable locations than Pontypool RU: Elland, Kells (the Pit Field), Saddleworth Rangers, Underbank Rangers, Wath Brow Hornets. Beauty in the eye of the beholder, of course.

Just been in South Wales (near Abergavenny) for a fortnight, as it happens. Called in on Abertillery RU. Looked like another once sizeable Valleys club in one-man-and-a-dog terminal decline.

 

[Wolford6]

1 hour ago, Hopping Mad said:

That's a big claim! I've been to Pontypool Park. Not hugely impressed with its setting. In terms of scenery and attractiveness of location, I'd put one or two of the Scottish Borders RU grounds - Jed-Forest and Melrose, certainly - well ahead of Pontypool RU.

I'd say there's a few amateur rugby league clubs in more favourable locations than Pontypool RU: Elland, Kells (the Pit Field), Saddleworth Rangers, Underbank Rangers, Wath Brow Hornets. Beauty in the eye of the beholder, of course.

Just been in South Wales (near Abergavenny) for a fortnight, as it happens. Called in on Abertillery RU. Looked like another once sizeable Valleys club in one-man-and-a-dog terminal decline.

 

None of those RL grounds have got anything other than a few scrub trees around them.

Pontypool Park boasts dozens of different tree species, including this one:

A national competition to name Wales' most beautiful trees has just come to an end. And the winner of the Woodland Trust competition is a 400-year-old chestnut tree in Pontypool Park.

Proper Game of Thrones tree if I ever saw one.