Fear Of Relegation

[Archie Gordon]

1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I think the only MPG to sell-out was a promotion game in Toronto and it's not as if there is much evidence that the threat of relegation sustains attendances for clubs at the bottom end of the table. 

I think you are right about relegation battles.

It is also true that MPGs where the home team was defending a place in SL didn't seem to generate huge interest.

However, where the MPG was/is Champ v Champ, they've been genuinely big games - attendance-wise and in terms of TV viewers.

Toronto-London and Toronto-Fev bear this out. Going back to the previous time that Championship Finals were used to decide promotion (late 2000s), Cas v Widnes pulled in 21k and was the 2nd most watched game on Sky behind the SLGF (if memory serves). I think Toronto-London might also have been the 2nd or 3rd most watched game in 2018.

I imagine that next week's Championship Final (is it still called the MPG?) will also be massive - likely generating more interest than every game outside the SLGF and CCF. 

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

You could do this now but with a 16 team SL and let the 4 newcomers build in quality. It must be done on factual markers and I would propose regional academies centrally funded rewarding the amateur clubs when a player signs a SL deal.

stadium, Financial situation, average comparable gates, potential gates, 10 year result stats could be used to decide the 16 but I would also welcome a bond returnable in leaving for all applicants, if 16 clubs left £3m as a bond that should comfortably generate £5m pa to market the sport with any decent broker

Hang on a mo Sweaty, what's this?

Before anyone else you have been the noisiest and longest campaigner for 2 x 10 SL divisions, now that it could very well be on the cards you are changing your tack for a 16 team single division SL?

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

Might be on my own here but I did not enjoy watching Hull KR last season.

To me it looked like they were taking the mick, slinging the ball about anywhere.

If it did not come off, so what, who cares?

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

I think you are right about relegation battles.

It is also true that MPGs where the home team was defending a place in SL didn't seem to generate huge interest.

However, where the MPG was/is Champ v Champ, they've been genuinely big games - attendance-wise and in terms of TV viewers.

Toronto-London and Toronto-Fev bear this out. Going back to the previous time that Championship Finals were used to decide promotion (late 2000s), Cas v Widnes pulled in 21k and was the 2nd most watched game on Sky behind the SLGF (if memory serves). I think Toronto-London might also have been the 2nd or 3rd most watched game in 2018.

I imagine that next week's Championship Final (is it still called the MPG?) will also be massive - likely generating more interest than every game outside the SLGF and CCF. 

Exactly, which is evidence that the real thing that draws in audience is the prize of winning, not the consequence of failing. 

The 2019 season had a competitive relegation battle but I don't think it really captured the attention or imagination of anyone in any significant way. If I remember rightly, London played Wakefield on the last day but neither the broadcasters, nor the supporters, seemed bothered enough to show up. 

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Exactly, which is evidence that the real thing that draws in audience is the prize of winning, not the consequence of failing. 

The 2019 season had a competitive relegation battle but I don't think it really captured the attention or imagination of anyone in any significant way. If I remember rightly, London played Wakefield on the last day but neither the broadcasters, nor the supporters, seemed bothered enough to show up. 

That game was live on Sky. 

[Gooleboy]

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

 

This is the thing with some RL fan - they think everybody is interested in only themselves and an't possibly believe in something because they think it is right for the game. Gooleboy and the 4 posters who liked the post were factually wrong and demonstrate this assumption perfectly well.

I referred to your point earlier, his comments were made when Huddersfield were certs to go up, not when he took over the reigns.

[Dave T]

Just now, Gooleboy said:

I referred to your point earlier, his comments were made when Huddersfield were certs to go up, not when he took over the reigns.

He has made the point when he has been at top teams, and also teams involved in P&R battles. 

It's his view, and it doesn't change depending on how his club is currently doing, which was your clear insinuation. 

[Harry Stottle]

44 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Might be on my own here but I did not enjoy watching Hull KR last season.

To me it looked like they were taking the mick, slinging the ball about anywhere.

If it did not come off, so what, who cares?

And that is my gripe with a no relegation system, it is not as though we have 12 teams of near ability, in all probability come July there is going to be 4 maybe 5 teams who are going to do nothing more than going through the motions of just completing fixtures, and so there will always be next season they say, it will not matter a jot we have two divisions in one in SL, jeapordy gives a competitive edge that teams must compete in matches and I may be wrong but I was under the impression that was what sport is all about, any sport be it individual or a team game, take away the need to win and they become nothing more than  opposed training sessions, isn't this what Tony Smith is saying they did last season when results didn't matter?

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Exactly, which is evidence that the real thing that draws in audience is the prize of winning, not the consequence of failing. 

The 2019 season had a competitive relegation battle but I don't think it really captured the attention or imagination of anyone in any significant way. If I remember rightly, London played Wakefield on the last day but neither the broadcasters, nor the supporters, seemed bothered enough to show up. 

I watched it on TV! And in the trade mags the relegation battle was generating as many column inches as the top of the division.

[Jack Russell]

Hang on, hang on, hkr wouldn't be in this position to start with if it wasn't for p+r being there.

[RayCee]

8 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Not while the clubs affected are part of the decision making process.

Genuine question. Does an individual existing SL club have sufficient voting power to guarantee it would never have to step down if they were clearly and consistently not up to standard?

[David Dockhouse Host]

7 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

You could do this now but with a 16 team SL and let the 4 newcomers build in quality. It must be done on factual markers and I would propose regional academies centrally funded rewarding the amateur clubs when a player signs a SL deal.

stadium, Financial situation, average comparable gates, potential gates, 10 year result stats could be used to decide the 16 but I would also welcome a bond returnable in leaving for all applicants, if 16 clubs left £3m as a bond that should comfortably generate £5m pa to market the sport with any decent broker

Amateur clubs are already rewarded when a player signs pro

[David Dockhouse Host]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

And that is my gripe with a no relegation system, it is not as though we have 12 teams of near ability, in all probability come July there is going to be 4 maybe 5 teams who are going to do nothing more than going through the motions of just completing fixtures, and so there will always be next season they say, it will not matter a jot we have two divisions in one in SL, jeapordy gives a competitive edge that teams must compete in matches and I may be wrong but I was under the impression that was what sport is all about, any sport be it individual or a team game, take away the need to win and they become nothing more than  opposed training sessions, isn't this what Tony Smith is saying they did last season when results didn't matter?

Sounds good but isn't how it works in reality IMO.

If so there would be no I tweet in the NRL. It would mean players of clubs in the bottom half have no integrity.

P/R would be fine if the jump between leagues wasn't so big.

Club coming up signs players from team going down and yo yos back down very often.

I would prefer P/R if we had more teams in the top league and the gap wasn't so large between leagues.

To achieve this we need more money

 

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Sounds good but isn't how it works in reality IMO.

If so there would be no I tweet in the NRL. It would mean players of clubs in the bottom half have no integrity.

P/R would be fine if the jump between leagues wasn't so big.

Club coming up signs players from team going down and yo yos back down very often.

I would prefer P/R if we had more teams in the top league and the gap wasn't so large between leagues.

To achieve this we need more money

 

Yes of course, but what you are doing is criticizing the structure of how P&R play's out, it can be adjusted to not having to stand on the cliff edge for the promoted club, whatever that may be.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Amateur clubs are already rewarded when a player signs pro

Give me examples please.

[RayCee]

2 hours ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Might be on my own here but I did not enjoy watching Hull KR last season.

To me it looked like they were taking the mick, slinging the ball about anywhere.

If it did not come off, so what, who cares?

Interesting observation Jill. From what Tony Smith said, teams play with fear with p/r. With no p/r last year they tried to play without fear. It gave you the impression they didn’t care but in fact was teaching them to try things. They continued with the same mentality this year with p/r and it’s paid off big time. Your comment confirms Tony's observation.

[David Dockhouse Host]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Give me examples please.

Every single player who has signed professional forms who came through an amateur club there is a payment to the community club.

[David Shepherd]

27 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Genuine question. Does an individual existing SL club have sufficient voting power to guarantee it would never have to step down if they were clearly and consistently not up to standard?

On their own? Almost certainly not. But as a block, there are enough mediocre clubs in there to scratch each others backs. 

[David Shepherd]

11 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Interesting observation Jill. From what Tony Smith said, teams play with fear with p/r. With no p/r last year they tried to play without fear. It gave you the impression they didn’t care but in fact was teaching them to try things. They continued with the same mentality this year with p/r and it’s paid off big time. Your comment confirms Tony's observation.

That's one way of looking at it.

[Harry Stottle]

40 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Every single player who has signed professional forms who came through an amateur club there is a payment to the community club.

At what age level? be very very careful, I know of a lot of kids who have signed forms that have attached them to professional club's for nowt to the community club.

[David Dockhouse Host]

17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

At what age level? be very very careful, I know of a lot of kids who have signed forms that have attached them to professional club's for nowt to the community club.

Be very very careful of what exactly?

I know a group who have signed and the community club were paid for each player. I was told they always had to pay, and witnessed it, so no reason to believe it doesnt happen or they lied to me. It happened to be academy age but as far as I'm aware it's all ages if they come from a community club.

[Snowys Backside]

I enjoyed the middle 8's, but I feel that SL got squeaky bums because the the Top Championship clubs closed the gap significantly on the Lower SL clubs.

I t would only have been a matter of time before 2 Champ clubs got promoted, and we couldn't have that, could we ?

Leigh Middle 8's was fantastic, So was HKR's, so was Londons and who could forget the MPG and the O'Brien Drop Goal ?  Warrington and Leeds dragged in there too ?  All great stuff and Batley having a right good go in front of a Packed Mount Pleasant. Its what dreams were made of !

Its now just a distant dream of what is just a boring brand ATM.

[RayCee]

I enoyed the middle 8's too and yes two SL teams going down was too much jeopardy for the SL incumbents although they would have gone down on merit. 

I'm surprised how the gap between SL and the Championship has so quickly expanded since the middle 8's were abandoned. 

[whatmichaelsays]

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

That game was live on Sky. 

Fair point. It must have passed my memory. 

[Tabby]

11 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Be very very careful of what exactly?

I know a group who have signed and the community club were paid for each player. I was told they always had to pay, and witnessed it, so no reason to believe it doesnt happen or they lied to me. It happened to be academy age but as far as I'm aware it's all ages if they come from a community club.

 Community clubs only get paid if the player makes the grade..