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WCC 2022


Eddie

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

How many years of playing Wales annually do you think it would be before we saw tangible improvement?

What is your realistic goal here? 

Because in all likely we will see huge scores with no interest from fans, sponsors or broadcasters. I'm interested in why you think it would be different from that? 

I think you mentioned England v Italy in the Six Nations. I think they've played each other for something like 24 consecutive years, with a handful of games before that.

The unique eco-system of England rugby union internationals means they carry on. But this is the outcome:

image.png.3ca2f963c8d81abbfe02b4e857b2de95.png

England v Wales wouldn't even be as close as that.

Which isn't an argument that the game should never be played. Just that playing it again and again without any context (NH Four Nations?) or development strategy backed by large wad of cash will achieve nothing.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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17 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

That's such a narrow minded view of Australia.

In the 80s they also had Neighbours, Home and Away and Rolf Harris 

best aussie tv show ever has to be agro's cartoon connection... Kids show but very close to the bone... Some clips on youtube

 

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14 hours ago, UTK said:

This disparity didn't just pop up out of nowhere though, it has been accentuated over time by England's continued neglect of their own backyard. It is a myth that England cares about the international game as a whole, England only cares about what benefits England (Exiles/Combined Nations anyone?). England have refused to humour the European championships for over 15 years now, such a tournament is no chance of attaining any proper level of coverage and prestige without the strongest European nation participating.

Now that more SH nations have emerged as genuine contenders (some through heritage, some through proper development) England can no longer rely on SH teams to head north outside WCs as the SH have begun establishing their own regular tournaments (ie the Oceanic Cup exists where the 4N previously did). Consequentially, to find international opponents England now have to play development catch up with France + the Home Nations because they let the NH slip this far.

Is the southern hemisphere playing any fixtures this year?

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42 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I think you mentioned England v Italy in the Six Nations. I think they've played each other for something like 24 consecutive years, with a handful of games before that.

The unique eco-system of England rugby union internationals means they carry on. But this is the outcome:

image.png.3ca2f963c8d81abbfe02b4e857b2de95.png

England v Wales wouldn't even be as close as that.

Which isn't an argument that the game should never be played. Just that playing it again and again without any context (NH Four Nations?) or development strategy backed by large wad of cash will achieve nothing.

Yes, this is my point. People think just playing games) improvement. Why? 

The Challenge too is that Italy joined a fully functioning tournament - you can't just start a new tournament with such a difference in standards. 

Getting these teams more regular, credible games, ideally in major tournaments is a sensible option. 

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4 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

A better example would have been the Pumas. Who were basically Argentina going up against the elite of SH rugby for years and led to them being established as a tier 1 nation within 2 world cup cycles. 

Why would that be a better example? 

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8 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Is the southern hemisphere playing any fixtures this year?

Nope nothing scheduled down here this season. Glad they haven't in a sense because it would've been a further kick in the teeth for the RLWC organisers I'd imagine.

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10 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Because Italy has two divided teams playing in a weaker comp where they aren´t exposed to the best players on a weekly basis. Unlike the Pumas where they just had essentially the national team at one side, playing against the elite of that sport. 

So why is that a good example of what would happen in your scenario?

Wales have only ever been strong due to RU players, which has dried up. I used to love watching them in the 90s when the had some brilliant talent. But they are nothing like that now. 

Look at what happened in the Knights vs Jamaica game last night for the reality of what would happen on the field. 

I should add, I don't disagree that these teams should have more exposure to top nations, particularly France, but that should be through riding England's coat-tails with SH teams. I. E. England should be hosting tours by some of the strong SH teams and they should be playing against Wales and France for example.

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8 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Its a good example because we would have one welsh team in sl competiting on a weekly basis against England internations so they woukd improve.

2nd point Again. Chicken and egg . Why would people declare for WRL when they play noone? Prospect of annual comp and games vs England changed that equation.

Finally , your solution is England should play Australia and Kiwis which suggests you have learnt little from our recent trouble. Australia is not interested and have the oceanic cup.  

What you are suggesting is the failed status quo.  The market for Wales and France to grow is a tournament vs England.  If England dont want to invest in growing the int game they shouldnt be surprised to find themselves with noone to play. 

You are just making things up. 

I say we should play SH teams. That means Aus, NZ, Tonga, PNG, Samoa, Fiji etc. 

Also, you are overstating the problems here. The RFL have arranged plenty of games against SH nations without issue, and will continue to do so. We were due an Ashes in 2020 and a WC in 2021 - whilst I don't agree with their reasons in the slightest, without Covid, these things would have been staged. In fact, the Aussies appear to want to go back to 30 years ago when the big teams just played each other more regular. 

You are suggesting cutting off your nose to spite your face. The SH teams are the ones that are a draw, sure we should support NH teams and look to drive growth there, but that should be alongside the SH tests, not instead of. 

The idea of replacing the Aussies and Kiwis with Wales and France is a pipe dream. Again, that's not to say we shouldn't be growing these games, France games return an OK crowd for the minimal effort, so there is definitely growth to be had there, but they aren't going to replace the Kangaroo's as a draw. 

The approach of stick a team in SL and it'll improve the international performance has never worked. 

I'd suggest it is you who is not learning anything from history. 

Bold talk is just that. Talk. 

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1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

TV figures as I told you before were higher for Eng vs Scotland rugby league than Eng vs Australia it that 4 nations.  So you are already wrong about the draw. 

You are confusing rl tragics with the real market of casual viewers . The draw is the TV market in an annual comp.  

This is about growing commercial income. And I would suggest that the stick a team in SL with no minimum player requirements didnt work but thats more to do with who the RFL let run crusaders than it not being a good model. 

This obsession with Australia is simply backwards.  They have financially got to a position where England doesnt matter. Begging SH sides to play you is not a strategy. 

Your last line is weird. You seem to think that simply playing games against SH teams is an obsession. That is why your idea is wrong from the off, because it is based on nonsense. 

Seeing playing games against all of the other top 7 ranked teams in the World as a bad thing is just bizarre.

Your whole strategy for England's international future appears to be based on anger with the Aussies.

In reality your ideas will lead to 2k in a random stadium in Wales in SL before they go bust, and England sticking 90 on Jamaica in front of 2.5k in Leigh on Our League. 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Sounds like Penrith want it to happen, but does the NRL ?

NRL 2022: Penrith Panthers ready to revive World Club Challenge – if St Helens travel (smh.com.au)

Penrith Panthers supremo Brian Fletcher has ruled out a trip to England for the largely forgotten World Club Challenge but would be willing to host Super League champions St Helens at BlueBet Stadium.

Fletcher said he had heard nothing about the St Helens game, but it was still an important fixture and the Panthers were happy to accommodate Saints at BlueBet Stadium.

“If St Helens want to come out here and play us, it would be great. We’d pack the stadium out, for sure. Australia’s vaccination rate would also be more than 95 per cent by that stage.

“It’s an important game and you’d love to see it played.”

And the catch:

NRL clubs normally travel to England because Rugby Football League and Super League clubs pick up their tab.

The Australian clubs receive anywhere between $350,000 to $500,000, which is predominately used for flights and accommodation.

Travelling England teams, however, are not returned the favour when it comes to subsidising costs. 

There`s a competition on the other side of the world on the bones of its` ass and we`re too lousy to return the favour by subsidising a trip to Oz that could be made part of any pre-season schedule.

And it`s true, they would pack out the stadium at Penrith and given the excitement  surrounding any Grand Final winning team I have little doubt that any Oz GF winning team could fill a local stadium.

We`ve got another competition on the other side of the world that can only add credibility to our own competition, it would be all over the papers and T.V for the few days that they were here - so why aren`t we hosting it every second year. I just don`t get it.

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Sounds like Penrith want it to happen, but does the NRL ?

NRL 2022: Penrith Panthers ready to revive World Club Challenge – if St Helens travel (smh.com.au)

Penrith Panthers supremo Brian Fletcher has ruled out a trip to England for the largely forgotten World Club Challenge but would be willing to host Super League champions St Helens at BlueBet Stadium.

Fletcher said he had heard nothing about the St Helens game, but it was still an important fixture and the Panthers were happy to accommodate Saints at BlueBet Stadium.

“If St Helens want to come out here and play us, it would be great. We’d pack the stadium out, for sure. Australia’s vaccination rate would also be more than 95 per cent by that stage.

“It’s an important game and you’d love to see it played.”

And the catch:

NRL clubs normally travel to England because Rugby Football League and Super League clubs pick up their tab.

The Australian clubs receive anywhere between $350,000 to $500,000, which is predominately used for flights and accommodation.

Travelling England teams, however, are not returned the favour when it comes to subsidising costs. 

There`s a competition on the other side of the world on the bones of its` ass and we`re too lousy to return the favour by subsidising a trip to Oz that could be made part of any pre-season schedule.

And it`s true, they would pack out the stadium at Penrith and given the excitement  surrounding any Grand Final winning team I have little doubt that any Oz GF winning team could fill a local stadium.

We`ve got another competition on the other side of the world that can only add credibility to our own competition, it would be all over the papers and T.V for the few days that they were here - so why aren`t we hosting it every second year. I just don`t get it.

 

 

 

F$$$$ Em !!! its just not worth the hassle with the NRL these days, they spout more BS than a politician.

They wont come to England cos of Covid (heard that one before)

They'll only come to the UK ever if they get $0.5M compensation

But its OK you can come here, but we wont give you $0.5M compensation, you'll have to fund it yourselves

What that piece also doesn't say is they want it to take place just before the NRL season starts, which is now after the SL season has started, meaning Saints would have to rearrange 2-3 SL games to accommodate it in an already shortened season because of the WC. 

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

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On 22/11/2021 at 09:38, The Rocket said:

Sounds like Penrith want it to happen, but does the NRL ?

NRL 2022: Penrith Panthers ready to revive World Club Challenge – if St Helens travel (smh.com.au)

Penrith Panthers supremo Brian Fletcher has ruled out a trip to England for the largely forgotten World Club Challenge but would be willing to host Super League champions St Helens at BlueBet Stadium.

Fletcher said he had heard nothing about the St Helens game, but it was still an important fixture and the Panthers were happy to accommodate Saints at BlueBet Stadium.

“If St Helens want to come out here and play us, it would be great. We’d pack the stadium out, for sure. Australia’s vaccination rate would also be more than 95 per cent by that stage.

“It’s an important game and you’d love to see it played.”

And the catch:

NRL clubs normally travel to England because Rugby Football League and Super League clubs pick up their tab.

The Australian clubs receive anywhere between $350,000 to $500,000, which is predominately used for flights and accommodation.

Travelling England teams, however, are not returned the favour when it comes to subsidising costs. 

There`s a competition on the other side of the world on the bones of its` ass and we`re too lousy to return the favour by subsidising a trip to Oz that could be made part of any pre-season schedule.

And it`s true, they would pack out the stadium at Penrith and given the excitement  surrounding any Grand Final winning team I have little doubt that any Oz GF winning team could fill a local stadium.

We`ve got another competition on the other side of the world that can only add credibility to our own competition, it would be all over the papers and T.V for the few days that they were here - so why aren`t we hosting it every second year. I just don`t get it.

 

All Penrith and the NRL have to do is host the match on the same basis as what happens in England. They take on the risk, pay for the costs and hosting but this should be more than made up for by the profits. That is the risk that the English game has to take on board every year. Surely the NRL with all its superior administration and marketing, so we are told, aren't afraid to take on that risk?

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On 22/11/2021 at 16:38, The Rocket said:

Sounds like Penrith want it to happen, but does the NRL ?

NRL 2022: Penrith Panthers ready to revive World Club Challenge – if St Helens travel (smh.com.au)

Penrith Panthers supremo Brian Fletcher has ruled out a trip to England for the largely forgotten World Club Challenge but would be willing to host Super League champions St Helens at BlueBet Stadium.

Fletcher said he had heard nothing about the St Helens game, but it was still an important fixture and the Panthers were happy to accommodate Saints at BlueBet Stadium.

“If St Helens want to come out here and play us, it would be great. We’d pack the stadium out, for sure. Australia’s vaccination rate would also be more than 95 per cent by that stage.

“It’s an important game and you’d love to see it played.”

And the catch:

NRL clubs normally travel to England because Rugby Football League and Super League clubs pick up their tab.

The Australian clubs receive anywhere between $350,000 to $500,000, which is predominately used for flights and accommodation.

Travelling England teams, however, are not returned the favour when it comes to subsidising costs. 

There`s a competition on the other side of the world on the bones of its` ass and we`re too lousy to return the favour by subsidising a trip to Oz that could be made part of any pre-season schedule.

And it`s true, they would pack out the stadium at Penrith and given the excitement  surrounding any Grand Final winning team I have little doubt that any Oz GF winning team could fill a local stadium.

We`ve got another competition on the other side of the world that can only add credibility to our own competition, it would be all over the papers and T.V for the few days that they were here - so why aren`t we hosting it every second year. I just don`t get it.

 

 

 

I'm sure if Saints are offered the same generous expenses that Aussie teams get when they come here they might be tempted

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1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

I'm sure if Saints are offered the same generous expenses that Aussie teams get when they come here they might be tempted

Maybe, but it still doesn't solve the fixture issue unless Penrith also agree to have the game played in January before the SL season starts.

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

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1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

I'm sure if Saints are offered the same generous expenses that Aussie teams get when they come here they might be tempted

I'm sure the SL teams who have to have their matches postponed will be delighted.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

All Penrith and the NRL have to do is host the match on the same basis as what happens in England. They take on the risk, pay for the costs and hosting but this should be more than made up for by the profits. That is the risk that the English game has to take on board every year. Surely the NRL with all its superior administration and marketing, so we are told, aren't afraid to take on that risk?

 

1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

I'm sure if Saints are offered the same generous expenses that Aussie teams get when they come here they might be tempted

I can only imagine that the NRL clubs that host the WCC only reimburse the visiting side from what they make on the day, any sponsorship for the event probably being pocketed, although I can`t say that for certain.

Either way by not guaranteeing flight or accommodation costs the financial risk is all placed on the visiting side. They of course bearing the greatest cost. They become a type of unsecured creditor; they get a split of whatever is left after the bills are paid.

I`m sorry to say it only reveals what low regard the event is probably held in and to use another business term, reveals the inability to distinguish (or even ignorance of) the difference between tangible and non-tangible returns. 

 

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