Redcliffe Dolphins chosen as preferred NRL expansion club

[Sports Prophet]

18 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

They might have come up with a decent shirt design by then.

Yeah. Red and Gold are great colours to mix. Not a great design is it. I’ve always liked all the Catalans designs. Maybe that’s where they need to look.

[The Great Dane]

I don't understand why people are surprised by the Dolphins jersey. 

It's a new take on one of their more famous traditional designs.

It was inevitable that a club run by relics of 60s would run with a lame rehash of a jersey nobody but the initiated cares about.

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yeah. Red and Gold are great colours to mix. Not a great design is it. I’ve always liked all the Catalans designs. Maybe that’s where they need to look.

Hopefully something based on these.

[Copa]

9 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

I don't understand why people are surprised by the Dolphins jersey. 

It's a new take on one of their more famous traditional designs.

It was inevitable that a club run by relics of 60s would run with a lame rehash of a jersey nobody but the initiated cares about.

That looks like a weird soccer strip..

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

10 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

I don't understand why people are surprised by the Dolphins jersey. 

It's a new take on one of their more famous traditional designs.

It was inevitable that a club run by relics of 60s would run with a lame rehash of a jersey nobody but the initiated cares about.

God if the Dolphins, with their success and progressiveness even whilst outside the big leagues, are “run by relics of the 60s” I dread to think how we’d describe most of our amateurish Super League clubs 

[unapologetic pedant]

15 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yeah. Red and Gold are great colours to mix. Not a great design is it. I’ve always liked all the Catalans designs. Maybe that’s where they need to look.

Absolutely. Red and gold is also an underused combination in RL. Apart from Catalans Dragons, I can think of Belrose Eagles on the Northern Beaches, Halswell Hornets in Christchurch, Palau Broncos, after that I`m struggling. Some of the smaller clubs in French Catalonia add a bit of Blood and Gold as trim or other detail.

To me, they`re ice-lolly colours, evoking images of warm temperatures and bright sunshine. Perfect for a Queensland team. 

If the Dolphins re-embrace Redcliffe/Moreton Bay in their official moniker, but add a substantial amount of Yellow/Orange to the red in their jersey, maybe this could help distinguish the NRL franchise from the Q Cup team.

[The Great Dane]

5 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

God if the Dolphins, with their success and progressiveness even whilst outside the big leagues, are “run by relics of the 60s” I dread to think how we’d describe most of our amateurish Super League clubs 

The Redcliffe Dolphins 'progressive' LOL.

They'll be the most hardcore traditional club outside of Sydney in the NRL, and are deeply reliant on their leagues club when the rest of society and pro-sports is diversifying away from them as quickly as they possibly can. They are an old school club, with an old school business model, that's used old school tactics to get where they are.

Oh and that 'success and progressiveness' is built on pork barrelling... Google sport rorts and have a look into how their stadium got upgraded over the years for example...

[The Great Dane]

1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

If the Dolphins re-embrace Redcliffe/Moreton Bay in their official moniker, but add a substantial amount of Yellow/Orange to the red in their jersey, maybe this could help distinguish the NRL franchise from the Q Cup team.

They can't/won't do either of those things.

If they explicitly embrace Redcliffe/Moreton Bay they'll instantly alienate the majority of the rest of their supposed target audience.

If they name themselves Brisbane/North Brisbane they'll alienate the Redcliffe fans and Sunshine Coast.

If they don't name themselves anything and continue as just 'the Dolphins', or go with something broad like Sunshine State or South Queensland, they'll be too broad and in trying to be everything to everyone will only achieve being nothing to anybody.

If they push much more gold into the brand, or make any other significant changes to the brand, they'll alienate the old Redcliffe fanbase.

If they don't make significant changes to the brand they'll alienate a bunch of their supposed target audience outside of Redcliffe.

If they go with the famous white vee, not only will they alienate a large portion of their supposed target audience outside of Redcliffe, but St. George will also fight them to the end to protect their brand identity.

If they go with a totally new design they'll alienate their old fanbase.

If they go with a new take on a traditional design that isn't their most iconic it will just confuse and alienate everybody (as has happened).

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

They can't win, whatever they do they're going to paint themselves into a corner and ###### off a bunch of people they need to support them if they are going to be successful. The only way it could have been avoided is if new the Brisbane club had a neutral brand, but this is RL, we always find a way to shoot ourselves in the foot.

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, The Great Dane said:

They can't/won't do either of those things.

If they explicitly embrace Redcliffe/Moreton Bay they'll instantly alienate the majority of the rest of their supposed target audience.

If they name themselves Brisbane/North Brisbane they'll alienate the Redcliffe fans and Sunshine Coast.

If they don't name themselves anything and continue as just 'the Dolphins', or go with something broad like Sunshine State or South Queensland, they'll be too broad and in trying to be everything to everyone will only achieve being nothing to anybody.

If they push much more gold into the brand, or make any other significant changes to the brand, they'll alienate the old Redcliffe fanbase.

If they don't make significant changes to the brand they'll alienate a bunch of their supposed target audience outside of Redcliffe.

If they go with the famous white vee, not only will they alienate a large portion of their supposed target audience outside of Redcliffe, but St. George will also fight them to the end to protect their brand identity.

If they go with a totally new design they'll alienate their old fanbase.

If they go with a new take on a traditional design that isn't their most iconic it will just confuse and alienate everybody (as has happened).

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

They can't win, whatever they do they're going to paint themselves into a corner and ###### off a bunch of people they need to support them if they are going to be successful. The only way it could have been avoided is if new the Brisbane club had a neutral brand, but this is RL, we always find a way to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Port Adelaide managed to keep on keeping on without alienating their fans after changing their colours, strip and moniker to the Power. If a club with now 150 years history can survive a few changes like that, then I am sure the comparatively minor number of supporters in Redcliffe can handle a broader geographical name and one additional colour in their strip.

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

If 

you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two imposters just the same:

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch,

3 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

 

[The Rocket]

5 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

They can't win, whatever they do they're going to paint themselves into a corner and ###### off a bunch of people they need to support them if they are going to be successful.

 

5 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

but this is RL, we always find a way to shoot ourselves in the foot.

 

Dane I think you are the one being very ` Rugby League ` here.

If they are successful on the the paddock then I don`t think people are going to quibble over their name.

Winning will be what counts. Queenslanders want to see 5 Queensland teams in the top 8 and they won`t care where they come from and they will go and watch them.

[The Great Dane]

4 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Port Adelaide managed to keep on keeping on without alienating their fans after changing their colours, strip and moniker to the Power. If a club with now 150 years history can survive a few changes like that, then I am sure the comparatively minor number of supporters in Redcliffe can handle a broader geographical name and one additional colour in their strip.

I'm sorry but you are simply ill informed.

Firstly Port started with a neutral brand where the Dolphins have not, which mitigates some of the issues, but even so they have regularly had identity crises throughout their history that have negatively effected their fanbase in one way or the another.

The most recent of those identity crises have been pushes to go back to traditional Magpies colours and jerseys, specifically the prison bars design, which has not only brought them into conflict with Collingwood and the AFL but has bred discontent between the "Power fans" and the "Magpies fans".

1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

Dane I think you are the one being very ` Rugby League ` here.

If they are successful on the the paddock then I don`t think people are going to quibble over their name.

Winning will be what counts. Queenslanders want to see 5 Queensland teams in the top 8 and they won`t care where they come from and they will go and watch them.

I'm the only guy here who supports a club that is a promoted club (I've actually been involved with two), and have done so since the beginning. So no I'm not 'being very RL', I frankly just have way more experience on the subject than most people and I'm telling them things they don't want to hear.

The Raiders are for all intents and purposes just an extension of the Queanbeyan Blues, and that fact has dogged the club it's whole existence. Though things aren't as bad as they once were, the Raiders turn 40 next year and you still regularly hear quips about the 'Queanbeyan Raiders', 'the family farm', etc, any time they are struggling or make a bad decision.

If they had been able to keep the Blues brand, like the Dolphins are doing by keeping theirs, they wouldn't have made it to 10 years, let alone 40, because nobody in the region (including myself) aside from Blues supporters would have touched the club with a forty foot pole and they didn't have the money to bankroll it indefinitely like the Dolphins do. That is in fact what happened to the other promoted club I've been involved with, the Tuggeranong/Canberra Vikings multiple times. They'd be promoted to a higher tier, would be reliant on the support of the whole ACT RU community for the venture to be successful, would refuse to make any concessions to attract a broader audience, especially when it came to the brand, and promptly poison themselves to the broader market. Then the whole venture would fail and they'd waste stupid amounts of money propping it up, though like the Dolphins they could afford to do so.

Because of totally avoidable PR, marketing, and branding mistakes the Dolphins have made it inevitable that they will follow the same path as the Vikings, and as such after the initial novelty period has worn off the NRL will be left with a club that averages 15-20k (maybe less considering their plans to play so many games at small venues) when they could have had one that averaged 25K+. As a result they'll fail to live up to the expectations of the broader RL community and broadcasters and it'll probably set expansion back years just like the Titan's struggles did.

BTW, if your business plan is to bank on being successful on the pitch then you need a new business plan. Nobody can be successful all the time, and only one team can win the GF each year.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

8 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

The Redcliffe Dolphins 'progressive' LOL.

They'll be the most hardcore traditional club outside of Sydney in the NRL, and are deeply reliant on their leagues club when the rest of society and pro-sports is diversifying away from them as quickly as they possibly can. They are an old school club, with an old school business model, that's used old school tactics to get where they are.

Oh and that 'success and progressiveness' is built on pork barrelling... Google sport rorts and have a look into how their stadium got upgraded over the years for example...

They’ve diversified away from just pokies, with a large commercial property portfolio. Leagues Clubs are also not exactly illegal - so I’m not sure what your point is? It just won the Panthers a comp.

 

Likewise where I come from effective lobbying to get government funding for your facilities is something I want my clubs leaders to do - it’s why Hull KR have a new North stand, and the NHS previously built Warrington another, whilst Trinity and Cas play in dumps 

 

Their “old school” business model made them the most successful club in the Queensland Cup, and just won them the 17th NRL spot so now they can run a business model based on media rights and digital brand engagement, which you don’t get to do unless you’re invited to the party! Are you from Ipswich or something? 

[Sports Prophet]

12 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

I'm sorry but you are simply ill informed.

Firstly Port started with a neutral brand where the Dolphins have not, which mitigates some of the issues, but even so they have regularly had identity crises throughout their history that have negatively effected their fanbase in one way or the another.

The most recent of those identity crises have been pushes to go back to traditional Magpies colours and jerseys, specifically the prison bars design, which has not only brought them into conflict with Collingwood and the AFL but has bred discontent between the "Power fans" and the "Magpies fans".

I am not I’ll informed at all. If anything, I think your outline is selective, sensationalist and alarmist. The Port Adelaide Football Club are still primarily supported by existing fans and their descendents.

To bring this back to RL, it is my opinion that changing the geographical name from Redcliffe will not alienate anymore than 1% of their fan base.

[unapologetic pedant]

14 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

The most recent of those identity crises have been pushes to go back to traditional Magpies colours and jerseys, specifically the prison bars design, which has not only brought them into conflict with Collingwood and the AFL but has bred discontent between the "Power fans" and the "Magpies fans".

Portraying themselves as Adelaide`s Magpies in a spat with Melbourne`s Magpies won`t have done them any harm. Could even be seen as a publicity stunt to broaden their appeal in SA rather than an identity crisis.

 

14 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

BTW, if your business plan is to bank on being successful on the pitch then you need a new business plan. Nobody can be successful all the time, and only one team can win the GF each year.

I agree with this part. But it applies equally to most NRL clubs. When Nick Politis is no longer around, what will the Roosters` basis for prosperity be if they start losing regularly? On the field in the early to mid 90s, the Bears were the most successful foundation club. Added to a strong Leagues club they appeared to have a brighter future than the Roosters or Rabbitohs. Few years later, and their poor form in NRL 1999 was the beginning of the end.

[unapologetic pedant]

13 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

To bring this back to RL, it is my opinion that changing the geographical name from Redcliffe will not alienate anymore than 1% of their fan base.

Who are the "old Redcliffe fanbase" that @The Great Dane thinks might be alienated?

1% of the fans who go to all their Q Cup games might be 4 or 5 people.

If it`s all their Leagues club members who never go to games, why would they care about the branding of the NRL franchise?

If the Dolphins do pull 15-20k crowds, the vast bulk won`t be from their "old Redcliffe fanbase".

[Sports Prophet]

exactly

[Sports Prophet]

3 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Who are the "old Redcliffe fanbase" that @The Great Dane thinks might be alienated?

1% of the fans who go to all their Q Cup games might be 4 or 5 people.

If it`s all their Leagues club members who never go to games, why would they care about the branding of the NRL franchise?

If the Dolphins do pull 15-20k crowds, the vast bulk won`t be from their "old Redcliffe fanbase".

exactly

[Davo5]

On 29/10/2021 at 03:12, The Great Dane said:

They can't/won't do either of those things.

If they explicitly embrace Redcliffe/Moreton Bay they'll instantly alienate the majority of the rest of their supposed target audience.

If they name themselves Brisbane/North Brisbane they'll alienate the Redcliffe fans and Sunshine Coast.

If they don't name themselves anything and continue as just 'the Dolphins', or go with something broad like Sunshine State or South Queensland, they'll be too broad and in trying to be everything to everyone will only achieve being nothing to anybody.

If they push much more gold into the brand, or make any other significant changes to the brand, they'll alienate the old Redcliffe fanbase.

If they don't make significant changes to the brand they'll alienate a bunch of their supposed target audience outside of Redcliffe.

If they go with the famous white vee, not only will they alienate a large portion of their supposed target audience outside of Redcliffe, but St. George will also fight them to the end to protect their brand identity.

If they go with a totally new design they'll alienate their old fanbase.

If they go with a new take on a traditional design that isn't their most iconic it will just confuse and alienate everybody (as has happened).

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

They can't win, whatever they do they're going to paint themselves into a corner and ###### off a bunch of people they need to support them if they are going to be successful. The only way it could have been avoided is if new the Brisbane club had a neutral brand, but this is RL, we always find a way to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Just because you don’t like the Dolphins doesn’t mean you have to make such rubbish up.

[The Great Dane]

On 29/10/2021 at 21:50, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

They’ve diversified away from just pokies, with a large commercial property portfolio. Leagues Clubs are also not exactly illegal - so I’m not sure what your point is? It just won the Panthers a comp.

Their 'diversified' portfolio seems to be tiny when you actually look into it, which is hard because they're extremely secretive about it and all the clubs finances. It seems to amount to their stadium (not a money spinner BTW), a small shopping arcade, a gym/aquatic centre, and a seemly small amount of residential. It's almost all built on land directly connected to the leagues club as well.

I also never claimed that LC's were illegal, but they are slowly starting to be legislated out of existence in most states/territories because of their reliance on gambling, hence why most of the successful clubs (in all sports) are moving away from them as fast as they can.

BTW, recent boosts pushed by on field success aside, the Panthers are not a particularly successful club commercially. It's less than a decade since they almost went broke (the last time), and they are only in the position that they are now because of forgiven debts and millions of dollars in angel investment that Phil Gould secured from James Packer.

On 29/10/2021 at 21:50, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Likewise where I come from effective lobbying to get government funding for your facilities is something I want my clubs leaders to do - it’s why Hull KR have a new North stand, and the NHS previously built Warrington another, whilst Trinity and Cas play in dumps 

Benefiting from corruption and pork barrelling may be 'effective lobbying' in your book, but in most other people's it's just immoral and only a matter of time before it catches up with you.

It's a hell of a rabbit hole if you are willing to follow it- https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/millions-in-public-money-poured-into-dolphins-dash-to-be-nrl-ready-20200720-p55dqi.html

On 29/10/2021 at 21:50, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Their “old school” business model made them the most successful club in the Queensland Cup, and just won them the 17th NRL spot so now they can run a business model based on media rights and digital brand engagement, which you don’t get to do unless you’re invited to the party!

Wrong again.

News limited (owner of the Broncos and vested interest in other regards) hand picking them won them the 17th spot in the NRL- https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/10/08/they-would-cannibalise-the-broncos-why-brisbane-prefer-redcliffe-bid/

On 29/10/2021 at 21:50, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Are you from Ipswich or something?

Nothing of the sort.

I just actually pay attention to what's going on and actually care what's best for RL, and what's best for RL isn't another shitbox suburban club squatting on a license and adding nothing to the league.

[The Great Dane]

On 29/10/2021 at 22:30, Sports Prophet said:

I am not I’ll informed at all. If anything, I think your outline is selective, sensationalist and alarmist.

I'm not the one being selective you are! Well, that or you've just got NFI, probably the latter to be fair.

Until very recently (the last half decade) Port Adelaide were the smallest and least successful of the AFL's expansion clubs in their heartlands outside of Vic. They've historically struggled financially, and struggled to grow their support base outside of the rough North East of the city.

Even they, and the more reasonable amongst their fans, will tell you one of the main reasons why that was is because they failed to attract as many supporters from across the city as initially expected, and that a significant part of the reason why that was is because of their history. A significant portion of the population of Adelaide simply refused to support Port because they are Port.

They're turning things around now, but it's largely because of good fortune not good management, or rather the good management of others.

Basically what's happened over the last decade is that the Crows have sold out all their ticketed memberships, and fans have to pay to go on long waiting lists before they can buy one. This has had a flow on effect for Port where a lot people abandon the wait for a Crows membership and buy a Port one out of convenience and it's boosted the club's growth. Same thing happened in Perth with Freo BTW.

Obviously that's good for Port, but there's no reality where Broncos sell out their ticketed memberships in our lifetime. So Redcliffe will have to build their support base off their own back, and frankly it'll take generations of changing attitudes before they are capable of doing that.

On 29/10/2021 at 22:30, Sports Prophet said:

The Port Adelaide Football Club are still primarily supported by existing fans and their descendents.

To bring this back to RL, it is my opinion that changing the geographical name from Redcliffe will not alienate anymore than 1% of their fan base.

I know and the same will be true of Redcliffe. That's the problem...

There aren't enough existing Redcliffe fans and their descendants to support a strong NRL club, so if the club is to be a success they'll have to find a way to attract a lot of new fans, many of whom (most considering gap in the Brisbane market that there is for a new NRL club to fill) have long histories of supporting and playing for the Dolphins rivals and are going to be resistant to supporting them as a result.

It's especially bad in a market like Brisbane where it was well within the NRL's means to build a club that could have rivalled the Broncos in size. We could have had the RL equivalent of Man Utd vs Man City, instead we've chosen to have Man Utd vs Bolton Wanderers.

[The Great Dane]

22 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Who are the "old Redcliffe fanbase" that @The Great Dane thinks might be alienated?

1% of the fans who go to all their Q Cup games might be 4 or 5 people.

If it`s all their Leagues club members who never go to games, why would they care about the branding of the NRL franchise?

If the Dolphins do pull 15-20k crowds, the vast bulk won`t be from their "old Redcliffe fanbase".

It must be very blissful to live as you do.

The Dolphins run teams from under 6s through to masters in multiple sports, and have done so for generations.

In other words basically every RL fan in Brisbane that lives/has lived north of the river, and a lot in the South as well, has played for or against the Redcliffe Dolphins. That's a lot of history, a lot of tribal allegiances, lots of basic in-group out-group psychology.

So yeah their Qld Cup attendance may not be huge, though TBF it is bigger than you are making out and it was relatively huge within living memory, but every weekend in winter tens of thousands of people interreact with the Dolphins brand, and have positive or negative associations with them as a result.

Redcliffe have put themselves in the position of asking that people play against them in the morning and support them in the afternoon. That didn't work out too great for the Tuggeranong Vikings, the Brisbane Roar, or any number of other examples, and it won't work out great for the Dolphins either.

[unapologetic pedant]

58 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

So yeah their Qld Cup attendance may not be huge, though TBF it is bigger than you are making out and it was relatively huge within living memory, but every weekend in winter tens of thousands of people interreact with the Dolphins brand, and have positive or negative associations with them as a result.

I`m interested in these people who have hitherto felt "positive associations" with the Dolphins. By your account, they will be put off supporting the NRL franchise by the rebranding. They don`t go to games, so how will their alienation manifest itself?

Those who have "negative associations" would have felt the same towards other bids. Unless the new franchise was built from scratch. The AFL decided in Perth and Adelaide that different dynamics are involved second time around. I don`t possess the omniscience of @The Great Dane, but I suspect they were right.

2 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

It's especially bad in a market like Brisbane where it was well within the NRL's means to build a club that could have rivalled the Broncos in size. 

If a second pristine franchise were assembled, with no history or inherited infrastructure, where is the guarantee that people who haven`t supported the first such venture will do so this time? And what does the club fall back on during periods of on-field failure?

 

2 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

 We could have had the RL equivalent of Man Utd vs Man City, instead we've chosen to have Man Utd vs Bolton Wanderers.

United always had huge support outside of Manchester. The support for City came virtually all from within.

When City were taken over, they became a new club of sorts. The change had some similarities with creating an NRL franchise out of a traditional QLD club. Over the past 10-15 years, they`ve slowly but surely increased their non-Mancunian fanbase.

[unapologetic pedant]

6 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

 A significant portion of the population of Adelaide simply refused to support Port because they are Port.

Basically what's happened over the last decade is that the Crows have sold out all their ticketed memberships, and fans have to pay to go on long waiting lists before they can buy one. This has had a flow on effect for Port where a lot people abandon the wait for a Crows membership and buy a Port one out of convenience and it's boosted the club's growth. Same thing happened in Perth with Freo BTW.

So "a significant portion of the population of Adelaide simply refused to support Port because they are Port". 

Then some of these people couldn`t buy a ticketed membership for the Crows. And thus all their historical enmity and resistance to Port instantly evaporated.

[Davo5]

5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

So "a significant portion of the population of Adelaide simply refused to support Port because they are Port". 

Then some of these people couldn`t buy a ticketed membership for the Crows. And thus all their historical enmity and resistance to Port instantly evaporated.

Interesting that he uses an AFL club as an example of why the Dolphins won’t be successful despite that AFL club being successful