The Toulouse Olympique Effect

[Harry Stottle]

38 minutes ago, LongbridgeH said:

The same reasoning the full time Welsh teams playing in the English Football League and why multiple sports across Europe have joint leagues

Which is a very good way of saying "They are reliant on others, if that fails they are goosed"

[binosh]

8 hours ago, Hello said:

I think that you will find that they already have found ideas on how to grow the game in their country. It's called getting 9000 fans in (better than half of SL English teams manage)  to watch a second tier team become the second team from their country reach the top League with all the increased attention that this will bring to the sport in said country, particularly with the forthcoming derby. It doesn't take a genius to see that this increase in interest will produce more youngsters trying out the game in France. As for your comments about finding funding and investment, are you joking?  Check out the increased funding and sponsorship from various sources at Toulouse in recent years. 

That’s the narrowest view in the world and completely misses the point. 

Where is the funding for all the other Elite 1 teams and improvement of the wider game? 

I WANT TOULOUSE IN SL!! but give me one tangible benefit to the game other than improvement of french youngsters and and a cosmopolitan destination.
 

[binosh]

49 minutes ago, LongbridgeH said:

The same reasoning the full time Welsh teams playing in the English Football League and why multiple sports across Europe have joint leagues

Because they cling onto the only TV they can in the nearest country because they generate no domestic income.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So why is it that we will be waiting for ever for the domestic professional game in France to improve far beyond what they have now, the seed has been sown with 2 teams playing in the British Competition.

With financial backing individual teams can step up to a full time professional league, as we have seen with Catalans and will now see with Toulouse. Expecting a fully part time league with very little funding to become a full time professional league is a pipe dream (or nightmare for some flat cappers).

It’s the same reason New Zealand, PNG and Fiji are fielding sides in the Australian leagues, one club stepping up is far easier and more realistic than a whole league doing it simultaneously.

Catalans and Toulouse are both running their reserve sides in the French Elite League, it’s a great system to bring through and develop French players who have the opportunity to play Super League in France. 

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Kevin dear heart, Rugby League in France kicked on after WW2, they had as strong an International team as any country playing the game, even defeating Australia and attracting crowds of over 60,000 on the sub-continent, it was bad management that allowed the game to decline in France in the following decades. 

So why is it that we will be waiting for ever for the domestic professional game in France to improve far beyond what they have now, the seed has been sown with 2 teams playing in the British Competition.

The subcontinent is India, but you are 100% correct so far as RL being very strong in France post WWII.

Globalisation and the significant minority status of RL has overtaken the opportunity for Elite 1 to be a competition to challenge SL. SL is the power in Europe and so it will remain, until there becomes a new world order for the sport led in England or outside Europe.

[Harry Stottle]

44 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

With financial backing individual teams can step up to a full time professional league, as we have seen with Catalans and will now see with Toulouse. Expecting a fully part time league with very little funding to become a full time professional league is a pipe dream (or nightmare for some flat cappers).

It’s the same reason New Zealand, PNG and Fiji are fielding sides in the Australian leagues, one club stepping up is far easier and more realistic than a whole league doing it simultaneously.

Catalans and Toulouse are both running their reserve sides in the French Elite League, it’s a great system to bring through and develop French players who have the opportunity to play Super League in France. 

Were is the financial backing coming from Kev? We are not just talking about 2 clubs here Kev you are telling us that the Elite 1 and the whole infrastructure  in France needs assistance.

Are you just pinning your hope's on France getting TV deal, what if that doesn't happen? SL can't afford to give them anymore they can hardly support themselves and they could be cutting funding to the Championship and L1 completely.

Tell me honestly Kev would you prefer that the French Rugby League inc the 2 pro clubs recieve the financial backing you mention at the expense of our semi pro clubs here, and whilst we are on about it to give the game in France momentum from the success of the 2 pro clubs the junior game needs a very big dose of looking at if the game there is to maintain any momentum, you know just like our amatuer game needs it here, but doesn't get it. A single word answer will suffice Yes or No.

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, binosh said:

 

I WANT TOULOUSE IN SL!! but give me one tangible benefit to the game other than improvement of french youngsters and and a cosmopolitan destination.
 

If you are not growing, the world grows over you. Toulouse is vital addition to a competition and a sport that has become increasingly insignificant in a globalised capitalist market.

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

 

Rugby Union also has the now named United Rugby Championship with teams from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy and South Africa. England and France are actually outliers in RU having a domestic league with teams from a single nation, both the Northern and Southern Hemisphere have a multi-nation league which most successful International countries play in and the European Cup is a massive money making competition.

The Southern Hemisphere league failed, it’s gone from 5 to 2 countries. Also time will tell if having SA teams in the poorly supported Celtic league will work -  either are shining examples of how club RL could be. 

[binosh]

36 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

If you are not growing, the world grows over you. Toulouse is vital addition to a competition and a sport that has become increasingly insignificant in a globalised capitalist market.

Come on. I said tangible not opinion, how is their inclusion vital?

Lots of big words, zero tangible benefit.

[Sports Prophet]

24 minutes ago, binosh said:

Come on. I said tangible not opinion, how is their inclusion vital?

Lots of big words, zero tangible benefit.

Thousands more French citizens will experience SL live in 2022 than have ever done so before. Marketing people will call these individuals consumers, partners, members and/or customers. All of which equate to a financial benefit. Tangible if you will.

Not that we should be focusing on immediate tangible benefits anyway. For that is the exact type of mindset that has kept the sport at a professional level predominantly in the North of England. The exact type of mindset short sighted club owners have. The focus should be on the opportunity, like any expanding business.

[The Rocket]

28 minutes ago, binosh said:

Come on. I said tangible not opinion, how is their inclusion vital?

Lots of big words, zero tangible benefit.

 

6 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Thousands more French citizens will experience SL live in 2022 than have ever done so before. Marketing people will call these individuals consumers, partners, members and/or customers. All of which equate to a financial benefit. Tangible if you will.

Not that we should be focusing on immediate tangible benefits anyway. For that is the exact type of mindset that has kept the sport at a professional level predominantly in the North of England. The exact type of mindset short sighted club owners have. The focus should be on the opportunity, like any expanding business.

Two highest rating regular season Rugby League games this year, by a country mile, with nearly 300 000 viewers, that`s probably double the season average, Featherstone vs. Catalans in Perpignan. Say no more.

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Kevin dear heart, Rugby League in France kicked on after WW2, they had as strong an International team as any country playing the game, even defeating Australia and attracting crowds of over 60,000 on the sub-continent, it was bad management that allowed the game to decline in France in the following decades. 

So why is it that we will be waiting for ever for the domestic professional game in France to improve far beyond what they have now, the seed has been sown with 2 teams playing in the British Competition.

You can’t change history to prove your argument Harry.  

RL as a ‘game’ was banned.  This includes all related amateur teams, schools and any players playing both codes.  Certainly the international game in France came back into its own but without infrastructure or money.  This is without even considering the prejudices.

Even now, RL is not permitted in all schools but the Dragons/TO success, plus 2025 WC should kick start it further forward.  If it does, we all win.  Players identified by British clubs as good enough can be identified/bought/loaned and vice versa.  Improvement in the pro game means more money into the semi pro/amateur game as well as Pole Espoirs, other colleges and schools.  That, in turn, creates a more marketable product and TV interest, imo, and more money all round.

 

 

[UTK]

12 hours ago, binosh said:

Makes zero sense.

The question isn’t about P&R it’s about french teams joining a British competition to expand the wider game of RL in Europe but bringing absolutely zero to the comp other than being “cosmopolitan” and a “nice away trip”

French RL needs to stop being such a shambles and start to think of ideas on how to grow the game in their country, find funding, improve standards and then add value to SL by furthering investment and growing stronger clubs, because, if they aren’t going to do that we might aswell just chuck the money back at Bradford and have some bumper crowds and a load of decent kids coming through.

Matthieu Jussaume can be used as a good example to demonstrate why TO/French clubs have a positive impact on the SL player pool (and therefore the standards of the english game) that most other clubs can't replicate. 

Player of the match in the championship final after carving up Kris Welham, a player that played SL for the majority of the previous 15 seasons. Watching his interview in the post-game provided some insight into the challenges he would face getting a start in SL without being apart of TO. Jussaume admitted he had trouble understanding some of the interviewers questioning on account of the language barrier between the two. Without the french clubs, a talented french youngster such as Jussaume would have to make the move from his homeland to a very culturally different place in the north of England. Moving such a large distance from home would no doubt be a daunting decision to make on its own and dealing with these cultural challenges would make the transitioning process even more difficult. 

Whether Jussaume continues to become a success in SL remains to be seen, but we can be confident English players have benefitted from playing against the likes of Remi Casty, Greg Mounis, Thomas Bosc, Tony Gigot, etc. Some frenchmen have managed to make the jump successfully as youngsters (Fages/Julien as recent examples) but how much of the talent mentioned above would've been lost without the presence of Catalans because the burden of moving to England was too much as a kid. As many often complain the gap between the NRL and SL is as big as it ever has been, SL should really be looking to exploit new talent streams wherever possible.

As many love to point out, TO/Cats aren't made up of entirely french players with plenty of quality English talent plying their trade across the channel. Established talent such as Tomkins/McMeeken/McIlorum don't face the same challenges as a young french player as invariably the majority of the club can speak their native tongue and their spot in the side is more or less entrenched once they sign. Young talent from the heartlands don't need to make such a large move to get a start within a professional squad, with 10 SL clubs and the fully English championship existing below SL. 

Therefore, french clubs provide benefits to England by raising the playing standard of SL through consistent access to a unique player pool while also not being prohibitive of English talent by reducing professional contracts available to quality English players.
 

[Lowdesert]

12 hours ago, binosh said:

Makes zero sense.

The question isn’t about P&R it’s about french teams joining a British competition to expand the wider game of RL in Europe but bringing absolutely zero to the comp other than being “cosmopolitan” and a “nice away trip”

French RL needs to stop being such a shambles and start to think of ideas on how to grow the game in their country, find funding, improve standards and then add value to SL by furthering investment and growing stronger clubs, because, if they aren’t going to do that we might aswell just chuck the money back at Bradford and have some bumper crowds and a load of decent kids coming through.

Why no complaints about teams such as Leigh signing French players?

Bergal and Dezaria played for Leigh as 21/22 year olds.  

 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

3 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Why no complaints about teams such as Leigh signing French players?

Bergal and Dezaria played for Leigh as 21/22 year olds.  

 

A very good point when people complain that a French club has signed an English player, Theo Fages, Tony Gigot, Morgan Escare, Romaine Navarrete, Ben Jullien to name a few have all been signed by English clubs.

[Dave T]

57 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Dont feed the troll guys... If people cannot see the benefit to all of us in adding a French rivalry to SL,  the likelihood of 3 full sell out crowds and the extra money coming into the game but instead demand an organisation with no money magic a fully professional comp out of thin air there is no helping them. 

Can you outline the benefits - it isnt a good argument to just dismiss people as trolls. In fact, one of the people you are siding with on this very discussion is often branded a troll for their views (I don't agree - just urging caution of going down that route).

What benefits to RL in the Uk will this bring - actual tangible benefits? Let's stop speaking in abstract terms.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Can you outline the benefits - it isnt a good argument to just dismiss people as trolls. In fact, one of the people you are siding with on this very discussion is often branded a troll for their views (I don't agree - just urging caution of going down that route).

What benefits to RL in the Uk will this bring - actual tangible benefits? Let's stop speaking in abstract terms.

I know others may disagree on this but I see it like this:

• Toulouse add another well backed team spending up to the salary cap and beyond. This is something Super League needs more of in my opinion.
• Good crowds (I admit potentially at this moment in time and we need to wait and see but I'd be amazed if they don't draw better crowds than some SL teams)
• Quality stadium fitting of a SL team
• Another big city team changes the perception of Super League
• Strengthens the French game and more importantly will strengthen the French national team. This provides undoubted potential when it comes to internationals and can help to wean England off their Southern hemisphere dependency. Opens up mid season internationals opportunites, more FTA coverage, gives more to sponsors etc.
• It fulfils the original vision of the European Super League having 2 French teams
• It will benefit Catalans and should see some very healthy derby crowds
• It provides the opportunity to get a French TV deal that can put income into the Super League coffers (Again potential I admit)
• It is more attractive to sponsors
• A French team at home every week and possibly an additional game to sell in the UK.

I know others will disagree on some of these and I appreciate some of this is a little chicken and egg but I think the upside far outweighs the downside. I actually see no downside. If the concern is edging out English teams then simply go to 14 and there will be more English teams then than there has been for a number of years.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

I know others may disagree on this but I see it like this:

• Toulouse add another well backed team spending up to the salary cap and beyond. This is something Super League needs more of in my opinion.
• Good crowds (I admit potentially at this moment in time and we need to wait and see but I'd be amazed if they don't draw better crowds than some SL teams)
• Quality stadium fitting of a SL team
• Another big city team changes the perception of Super League
• Strengthens the French game and more importantly will strengthen the French national team. This provides undoubted potential when it comes to internationals and can help to wean England off their Southern hemisphere dependency. Opens up mid season internationals opportunites, more FTA coverage, gives more to sponsors etc.
• It fulfils the original vision of the European Super League having 2 French teams
• It will benefit Catalans and should see some very healthy derby crowds
• It provides the opportunity to get a French TV deal that can put income into the Super League coffers (Again potential I admit)
• It is more attractive to sponsors

I know others will disagree on some of these and I appreciate some of this is a little chicken and egg but I think the upside far outweighs the downside. I actually see no downside. If the concern is edging out English teams then simply go to 14 and there will be more English teams then than there has been for a number of years.

I agree with all of that - they are exactly the reasons I support expansion - but many of them are still a bit abstract, and do rely on a leap of faith somewhat. 

Things like perception of the comp are exactly right - but to naysayers this is easily dismissed if it doesn't then bring in the direct sponsors and tv deals etc. Things like 'strengthening the French team' are great, and again strategic things that we should be working towards - but Catalans hasn't strengthened the French team at all and England have had no benefits whatsoever. In fact whenever anyone brings this point up this is dismissed as not being a prime objective of French expansion at all. 

Your final paragraph is the challenge - it is chicken and egg - sometimes you have to go for these things with a slight leap of faith to get the benefits - and not everyone believes that is the right thing to do. IMHO it is the difference between a visionary and a bean-counter. We could continue to play safe (and imho still deliver growth if we do that well) but for me the bigger prize is if we are bold and aim for these exciting ventures. But I find that difficult to quantify - and we know that it is higher risk (by the amount of failures).

So whilst I agree with your list, and my personal view is that they are worth taking the risk on, I can absolutely understand why others don't think the millions of quid some of these things cost are worth it. I don;t believe it is right to dismiss them as trolls or flat-cappers (that isn't aimed at you btw) - one of my old bosses is very smart, and an RL fan, but he just doesn't buy into expansion, he always takes the pee out of me on this - and he has a fair list of failures and challenges that support his view to him. I still think he is wrong mind. 

On your last point about no downside - I think the risk here is that it all depends on how you do it. We have facilitated expansion before by relegating UK teams, we have made a mess with the Toronto expansion - these things are downsides - not expansion in itself, but how we do it. Once again, Ill finish off by saying we should ever be doing any of this without a plan. 

[binosh]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

Thousands more French citizens will experience SL live in 2022 than have ever done so before. Marketing people will call these individuals consumers, partners, members and/or customers. All of which equate to a financial benefit. Tangible if you will.

Not that we should be focusing on immediate tangible benefits anyway. For that is the exact type of mindset that has kept the sport at a professional level predominantly in the North of England. The exact type of mindset short sighted club owners have. The focus should be on the opportunity, like any expanding business.

You’re first sentence is nearly there, Toulouse being in SL puts more french eyes on the sport, what is the plan to capitalise on this? Are the french authorities working with Bein sports on a TV deal to throw into the mix? How does more french eyes on the game get us a better TV deal with SKY in 2 years which is ultimately the goal?

If you said to me putting Catalans & Toulouse into SL with no relegation for 3 years meant that Bein sports were happy to sign a French TV deal for £5 million per year for 3 years meaning that SL had the finances to expand to 14/16 franchise clubs all with circa £1.8 million per year funding, adding in Newcastle or York and 2 promoted teams to grow the sport in the UK and help achieve an increase in the SKY deal then that would be a tangible benefit to SL and I could see the benefit, but the fact remains swapping Toulouse for Leigh or London or Toronto or whoever it is, is still just shuffling deckchairs on the titanic and in 2 years time unless something changes SKY have clearly stated that the ship called SL is going down.

Unless we do something different.

[whatmichaelsays]

2 hours ago, binosh said:

Come on. I said tangible not opinion, how is their inclusion vital?

Lots of big words, zero tangible benefit.

What benefit do you actually want? The idea overseas or expansion clubs are expected to bring some sort of nebulous "benefit" for everyone else really isn't helpful unless we're applying the same metric to every other club, heartland or otherwise. 

If Toulouse being in SL gives us at least one game a week played on French soil, and therefore an easy opportunity to earn more TV airtime both here in and France, that's a benefit. If two French teams opens up doors for more commercial interest in France, that's a benefit. If Toulouse come into Super League and just be a competitive team and club in their own right, that's a benefit.

It's certainly not their, or Catalans', responsibility to improve the French national team, no more than it is the responsibility of the Rhubarb Triangle clubs to produce a stand-off half capable of single-handedly winning an Ashes series for England. 

Constantly asking "but what benefit do they bring?", as if expansion clubs are to be treated as some special case, is simply looking for reasons to brand them a failure. 

[binosh]

22 minutes ago, Damien said:

I know others may disagree on this but I see it like this:

• Toulouse add another well backed team spending up to the salary cap and beyond. This is something Super League needs more of in my opinion.
• Good crowds (I admit potentially at this moment in time and we need to wait and see but I'd be amazed if they don't draw better crowds than some SL teams)
• Quality stadium fitting of a SL team
• Another big city team changes the perception of Super League
• Strengthens the French game and more importantly will strengthen the French national team. This provides undoubted potential when it comes to internationals and can help to wean England off their Southern hemisphere dependency. Opens up mid season internationals opportunites, more FTA coverage, gives more to sponsors etc.
• It fulfils the original vision of the European Super League having 2 French teams
• It will benefit Catalans and should see some very healthy derby crowds
• It provides the opportunity to get a French TV deal that can put income into the Super League coffers (Again potential I admit)
• It is more attractive to sponsors
• A French team at home every week and possibly an additional game to sell in the UK.

I know others will disagree on some of these and I appreciate some of this is a little chicken and egg but I think the upside far outweighs the downside. I actually see no downside. If the concern is edging out English teams then simply go to 14 and there will be more English teams then than there has been for a number of years.

Some decent points and I agree with most of them but they should all be “business basics” or minimum criteria for being able to apply for a position in SL.
 

Interestingly though on you’re first point Toulouse have already said they won’t spend up to the full cap.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Dont feed the troll guys... If people cannot see the benefit to all of us in adding a French rivalry to SL,  the likelihood of 3 full sell out crowds and the extra money coming into the game but instead demand an organisation with no money magic a fully professional comp out of thin air there is no helping them. 

Who's the troll?

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, binosh said:

Some decent points and I agree with most of them but they should all be “business basics” or minimum criteria for being able to apply for a position in SL.
 

Interestingly though on you’re first point Toulouse have already said they won’t spend up to the full cap.

Garcia said he doesn't think they will not that they wont. That is also a very sensible thing to say because, as we saw with Toronto, player agents do think there is serious money to be made when it comes to dealing with promoted clubs, particularly expansion ones.

[binosh]

6 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

What benefit do you actually want? The idea overseas or expansion clubs are expected to bring some sort of nebulous "benefit" for everyone else really isn't helpful unless we're applying the same metric to every other club, heartland or otherwise. 

If Toulouse being in SL gives us at least one game a week played on French soil, and therefore an easy opportunity to earn more TV airtime both here in and France, that's a benefit. If two French teams opens up doors for more commercial interest in France, that's a benefit. If Toulouse come into Super League and just be a competitive team and club in their own right, that's a benefit.

It's certainly not their, or Catalans', responsibility to improve the French national team, no more than it is the responsibility of the Rhubarb Triangle clubs to produce a stand-off half capable of single-handedly winning an Ashes series for England. 

Constantly asking "but what benefit do they bring?", as if expansion clubs are to be treated as some special case, is simply looking for reasons to brand them a failure. 

So let me get me this straight.

RL in England & it’s core 20 clubs have taken many years to get to a point whereby it’s top league is fully professional with a multi million pound TV deal. 
Men in suits in the 80’s had the vision and the drive to make the game professional, push boundaries and negotiate multi- million pound deals for the good of the 150+ year old English game and we are now accepting requests from french teams to join our league structure and receive SKY funding without so much as challenging them on what benefits they bring with them to SL? And we allow them to opt out of the challenge cup? 
 

And you’re OK with that? Brilliant.

Carry on as normal everyone.

[Dave T]

21 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Question got anserwed by another poster. If someone gets 9,000 to a second tier playoff game and then criticises that there is no tangible benefit or says we should not have Toulouse in because they haven´t proved the benefits (which is impossible of course until they are in the competition) then that person is clearly arguing in bad faith.

 

We will find out next year, that´s the last thing to say on the matter really. 

Toronto got bigger crowds in the 2nd tier. Paris got bigger crowds in SL. 

Cas v Widnes got 20k in the Championship Grand Final 15 years ago but not many argue that means Cas add value. 

I think Toulouse do add value, but being snarky with people who don't and dismissing them and trolls and arguing in bad faith reflects badly on you, not them. 

The really important factor here is that the RFL (the UK governing body) has admitted Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto and Ottawa into the UK pyramid - their remit is the UK game - they have to demonstrate the benefits to the UK game of these decisions.