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The Toulouse Olympique Effect


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The middle 8's were the best form of sorting out who deserved a SL spot - the T4 champ clubs got 500-800k from sky which allowed some to go FT and strengthen for the 8's. 7 games later all had played all, 3 were in SL and 2 played for the privilege.

 

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22 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

To solidify the growth of the game and in turn increase participation and opportunities for non heartland areas.

Toulouse (& Perpignan) are in a rugby league heartland.

We also need to increase participation and opportunities in the places where clubs would be relegated despite finishing 10th or 11th in your scenario, be that Salford or Wakefield or wherever else. I don't think we should be picking and choosing which areas get preference as you suggest.

I agree that it isn't desirable to have overseas teams coming up (or going down) through the British system to reach the 'European' top tier (and if Super League is really to be a European competition, its administration may need changing so that it is no longer essentially the British top flight with invited overseas additions) but if you have promotion and relegation it has to be for everyone. It is sport and everyone should play by the same rules.

Edited by Barley Mow
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1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

Who said anything about redundant players. What you are saying is the same thing that has been happening for the history of promotion and relegation in RL.

In actual fact, by ring fencing the two clubs in, it promotes the opportunity for French clubs to blood a few more of their local talent, knowing full well that they will not be relegated. 

True didnt Hull KR finish bottom last year, this year made the play offs, Catalan and Crusaders aslo accomplished the same feat

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And that’s where we disagree @Barley Mow. Sport is littered with examples “unfairness”. Whether it’s a draft, finals, in-equal home and away fixtures etc etc.

It’s not like those teams finishing 10th or 11th are being totally neglected either. But the time comes when SL needs to think beyond the M62 and if that means a little bit of an unfair advantage for non-M62 teams, then so be it.

edit M62 not M65 🤦‍♂️

Edited by Sports Prophet
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25 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

To solidify the growth of the game and in turn increase participation and opportunities for non heartland areas.

Would you also put London and Sheffield in SL and grant them exemption from relegation then? And how about N Wales, Newcastle and Coventry? 

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1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

And that’s where we disagree @Barley Mow. Sport is littered with examples “unfairness”. Whether it’s a draft, finals, in-equal home and away fixtures etc etc.

It’s not like those teams finishing 10th or 11th are being totally neglected either. But the time comes when SL needs to think beyond the M65 and if that means a little bit of an unfair advantage for non-M65 teams, then so be it.

Super League has been (to varying levels of success) thinking beyond the M62 since its inception. I think we should continue to promote the game as far and wide as possible but by facilitating growth for all rather than picking and choosing based on location.

Incidentally, I am against the other examples of 'unfairness' you list as well (except finals, where I think there are systems which give enough advantage to league leaders etc).

Happy to disagree (as long as you don't get your way)! 😂

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2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Would you also put London and Sheffield in SL and grant them exemption from relegation then? And how about N Wales, Newcastle and Coventry? 

English teams capped at 10. 

If N Wales got to a stage where they qualified for SL, I would hope the game would have suitably reaped the rewards of ringfencing two French clubs in and ringfence a Welsh team as well and up the teams to 14.

Failing that, if a non-English team wins, either increase the number of teams in SL or relegate the lowest non-English club. Unfortunately, it is going to be a while before we see another non-English club win the Championship.

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5 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Incidentally, I am against the other examples of 'unfairness' you list as well (except finals, where I think there are systems which give enough advantage to league leaders etc).

Happy to disagree (as long as you don't get your way)! 😂

I figured you might be, but again, that’s ok. Not everyone will be on board.

As to Toulouse, let’s hope they stay up for 2023 and beyond. I really want to see some carnival, partisan derby’s between the two French teams. 

I hope another legacy of Toulouse’s qualification is to give another French club the inspiration to join the Championship. The sport really is stronger together, than divided and to really extend the European flavour into the second and third tiers of the pyramid will be a great result for the game in the northern hemisphere.

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5 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

English teams capped at 10. 

If N Wales got to a stage where they qualified for SL, I would hope the game would have suitably reaped the rewards of ringfencing two French clubs in and ringfence a Welsh team as well and up the teams to 14.

Failing that, if a non-English team wins, either increase the number of teams in SL or relegate the lowest non-English club. Unfortunately, it is going to be a while before we see another non-English club win the Championship.

So I’m summary you’d be happy for an English club who finished 10th with 20 points to be relegated if Cats and Toulouse finished in 11th and 12th place with 2 points each? 

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Just now, Sports Prophet said:

 

I hope another legacy of Toulouse’s qualification is to give another French club the inspiration to join the Championship. The sport really is stronger together, than divided and to really extend the European flavour into the second and third tiers of the pyramid will be a great result for the game in the northern hemisphere.

I would like to see that too, but not at the expense of the Elite 1 competition. That league is already down to 9 teams with some (St Gaudens for example) not really being strong enough at the moment. Taking say Carcassonne (the obvious team to move into the English set up) out would devalue that competition further. 

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10 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I figured you might be, but again, that’s ok. Not everyone will be on board.

As to Toulouse, let’s hope they stay up for 2023 and beyond. I really want to see some carnival, partisan derby’s between the two French teams. 

I hope another legacy of Toulouse’s qualification is to give another French club the inspiration to join the Championship. The sport really is stronger together, than divided and to really extend the European flavour into the second and third tiers of the pyramid will be a great result for the game in the northern hemisphere.

I've got to say that, despite having had no preference between Toulouse and Featherstone over who won the play-off final, I am now really looking forward to seeing Toulouse in Super League. 

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19 minutes ago, Eddie said:

So I’m summary you’d be happy for an English club who finished 10th with 20 points to be relegated if Cats and Toulouse finished in 11th and 12th place with 2 points each? 

That is the risk isn’t it. That wouldn’t make me happy no, but that is a very unlikely scenario and with an appropriate plan to take advantage, that is a risk I think the game can take, yes.

Off the top of my head, perhaps a condition of being ringfenced is to have a minimum requirement of 5 French in the match day 17.

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4 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

That is the risk isn’t it. That wouldn’t make me happy no, but that is a very unlikely scenario and with an appropriate plan to take advantage, that is a risk I think the game can take, yes.

Off the top of my head, perhaps a condition of being ringfenced is to have a minimum requirement of 5 French in the match day 17.

Or just not ringfence anyone and let sporting contest decide who gets relegated.

It's pretty revolutionary, but it might catch on.

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6 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

The middle 8's were the best form of sorting out who deserved a SL spot - the T4 champ clubs got 500-800k from sky which allowed some to go FT and strengthen for the 8's. 7 games later all had played all, 3 were in SL and 2 played for the privilege.

 

It was a massive waste of money spending £2.5 million a year on 4 Championship clubs. 

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12 hours ago, FearTheVee said:

Couldn't disagree more.

If you finish bottom of SL with SL money, you get relegated.  If you finish top of the Championship with Championship money you get promoted and a chance to improve your squad with SL money.

The problem there is that even with SL money, Championship clubs can’t start recruiting properly until they are promoted and by then all the best available players will have been snapped up. Promoted clubs then have to sign whoever is left because they are an upgrade on what they have but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are enough of an upgrade.

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10 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Right you are. However, my point on ringfencing TO in SL will ultimately go on to really help that growth of the sport.

Like I mentioned, ringfencing them in will allow them to give opportunities to up and coming locals without the threat of relegation knocking on the door.

I like that idea on the condition that they have to field a minimum amount of French players in their match day squad. It would basically mean France have a locked in percentage of clubs in Super League and would assist their chances of getting a paid TV deal.

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21 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Who said anything about redundant players. What you are saying is the same thing that has been happening for the history of promotion and relegation in RL.

In actual fact, by ring fencing the two clubs in, it promotes the opportunity for French clubs to blood a few more of their local talent, knowing full well that they will not be relegated. 

Redundant player's, it is not the same thing as in a league where the worst performing team gets relegated that is acceptable, by ensuring French teams cannot be relegated then something has to give, suppose ringfencing was brought in this coming year and Toulouse finished bottom but another English team is relegated, would you expect all the player's of the relegated club would be retained on their SL contracts?

So you are advocating that teams by being ringfenced would/could be not as competitive simply because they are allowed to 'experiment' with players of lesser abillity in a system where competition for league placings amounts to total 'diddly squat' for them, can you not see how such a system can adversely affect other teams that are striving all out to retain their SL status.

There is nothing at all that you or anyone else can justify in anyway whatsoever why better performing teams in a competitive league structure should be subject to relegation whilst worse performing teams have perpetual reprieve from jeopardy. Go on justify it to me please.

As a fan I would not want to go along to support a team in matches where the result means nothing, neither would I turn up to watch one of these ringfenced clubs against my team, what you and others of the same mindset are advocating is totally against the ethos, spirit and character of sporting competition.

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21 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Right you are. However, my point on ringfencing TO in SL will ultimately go on to really help that growth of the sport.

Like I mentioned, ringfencing them in will allow them to give opportunities to up and coming locals without the threat of relegation knocking on the door.

You started it re structural changes with your protectionist system, then you go and agree with him.

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19 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Off the top of my head, perhaps a condition of being ringfenced is to have a minimum requirement of 5 French in the match day 17.

It wouldn't matter if they had 0 or 17 French players in their matchday squad, in your ringfencing they are exempt from losing having any meaning.

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There is no french tv deal without a minimum number of French clubs.  Those of us in favour of locking them in acknowledge it may seem unfair.

People who believe in p and r for french clubs should at least acknowledge they have given up growing the game and its commercial appeal. 

I hope the sight of 20,000 packed in for Toulouse vs Dragons will show those on the fence that any serious growth for our game must be building up France. 

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1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

There is no french tv deal without a minimum number of French clubs.  Those of us in favour of locking them in acknowledge it may seem unfair.

People who believe in p and r for french clubs should at least acknowledge they have given up growing the game and its commercial appeal. 

I hope the sight of 20,000 packed in for Toulouse vs Dragons will show those on the fence that any serious growth for our game must be building up France. 

I have nothing at all but best wishes for the game in France, but simply not on the terms that some of you suggest.

Competition for places - Good

Ringfencing - Abhorrent 

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11 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

There is no french tv deal without a minimum number of French clubs.  Those of us in favour of locking them in acknowledge it may seem unfair.

People who believe in p and r for french clubs should at least acknowledge they have given up growing the game and its commercial appeal. 

I hope the sight of 20,000 packed in for Toulouse vs Dragons will show those on the fence that any serious growth for our game must be building up France. 

They would only have to acknowledge that if literally the only way to grow the game and commercial appeal was to ringfence French teams in SL - and that clearly isn't the case. 

There are many, many ways to grow the game and commercial appeal - we can grow the game and commercial appeal retaining the current structure.

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1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

There is no french tv deal without a minimum number of French clubs.  Those of us in favour of locking them in acknowledge it may seem unfair.

People who believe in p and r for french clubs should at least acknowledge they have given up growing the game and its commercial appeal. 

I hope the sight of 20,000 packed in for Toulouse vs Dragons will show those on the fence that any serious growth for our game must be building up 

I want to keep P and R.

Yet I really enjoyed the mini tournament in Turkey at the weekend and I try to interest people. 

At the moment the focus is on France.  However, there are 44 countries in Europe to choose to encourage.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

They would only have to acknowledge that if literally the only way to grow the game and commercial appeal was to ringfence French teams in SL - and that clearly isn't the case. 

There are many, many ways to grow the game and commercial appeal - we can grow the game and commercial appeal retaining the current structure.

Tbf with this stupid 2 10's I would settle for maintaining the structure.  It's less terrible than the alternative we are seemingly moving towards. 

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