Combined Nations to play England again next year & GB to return

[Tommygilf]

46 minutes ago, Dave T said:

There isn't really a replacement of any worth. 

And I thought the RFL were behind the 8 nation Cup. 

Evidently in the Pacific there is. We haven't decided that sullying England with the Euro cup as was in the days of yore is worthwhile yet...

[Damien]

57 minutes ago, Dave T said:

There isn't really a replacement of any worth. 

And I thought the RFL were behind the 8 nation Cup. 

The trouble is the Confederations Cup was the replacement, which most were in favour of because it grew the 4 Nations, but the NRL torpedoed that.

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Evidently in the Pacific there is. We haven't decided that sullying England with the Euro cup as was in the days of yore is worthwhile yet...

The European Nations have played far far more internationals than their Southern Hemisphere counterparts, and it is fair to say that even the likes of Scotland and Ireland and Wales have been neglected. But they have been playing Euro Nations Cups for years now. 

The 2019 Oceania Cup saw Aus play against NZ and Kiwis - fewer games than the 4N and tbh, just the same as many years without a tournament. Its a logo. 

[M j M]

It's really not true to claim that international games have got less common since 1995. Putting Covid to one side we have got used to some form of international games after every season and four-yearly world cups which certainly wasn't the case before.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

The trouble is the Confederations Cup was the replacement, which most were in favour of because it grew the 4 Nations, but the NRL torpedoed that.

Yep, that's my point, the RFL were drivers behind World Cups, Tri and then Four Nations and then the 8 team comp. 

For all the criticism that the RFL deserve, I think they have tried to drive formal international tournaments, even though they often aren't the major partner. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, M j M said:

It's really not true to claim that international games have got less common since 1995. Putting Covid to one side we have got used to some form of international games after every season and four-yearly world cups which certainly wasn't the case before.

I've often quoted the numbers - the nations overall are playing a lot more internationals than ever. 

The Challenge is around consistency for the bigger nations and the fact that the Aussies have decided they need a rest year every now and then, but England in general have been playing regular tournaments. 

We are broadly in line with where we were 30 years ago, with lower nations playing far more. 

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The European Nations have played far far more internationals than their Southern Hemisphere counterparts, and it is fair to say that even the likes of Scotland and Ireland and Wales have been neglected. But they have been playing Euro Nations Cups for years now. 

The 2019 Oceania Cup saw Aus play against NZ and Kiwis - fewer games than the 4N and tbh, just the same as many years without a tournament. Its a logo. 

That is very true but I think the issue is more the profile and quality. Even most RL fans know nothing about the Euro Nations Cup or most of the games featuring Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Attendances reflect that. Its only really us die hard RL anoraks that have a clue. Its all a little chicken and the egg (I seem to be saying this a lot lately) but unless these matches are given a prominent place, played at decent venues and have names playing for them that people can identify with then I don't think they will ever amount to much. In particular England need to take part and these matches need to be played at decent grounds and treated along the lines of when England have played Ireland in the World Cup. Unless that happens then all we will get is more of the same.

[UTK]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The European Nations have played far far more internationals than their Southern Hemisphere counterparts, and it is fair to say that even the likes of Scotland and Ireland and Wales have been neglected. But they have been playing Euro Nations Cups for years now. 

The 2019 Oceania Cup saw Aus play against NZ and Kiwis - fewer games than the 4N and tbh, just the same as many years without a tournament. Its a logo. 

The competition had 6 nations involved across the two tiers and was far more competitive than the 4N with every team bar PNG notching up a win.

The only real criticism of the comp is that PNG should've played their games in Port Moresby.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

That is very true but I think the issue is more the profile and quality. Even most RL fans know nothing about the Euro Nations Cup or most of the games featuring Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Attendances reflect that. Its only really us die hard RL anoraks that have a clue. Its all a little chicken and the egg (I seem to be saying this a lot lately) but unless these matches are given a prominent place, played at decent venues and have names playing for them that people can identify with then I don't think they will ever amount to much. In particular England need to take part and these matches need to be played at decent grounds and treated along the lines of when England have played Ireland in the World Cup. Unless that happens then all we will get is more of the same.

I've made these points very often so not going to disagree, but there is an element of authenticity to these games at least. Games played in Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France plus many other Euro nations. 

I'm not convinced about the England point, certainly not every year, but we could do more. 

The SH stuff looks good, but in reality it is heritage teams playing out of Sydney or Auckland. It's not something that works up here. 

[Tommygilf]

45 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The European Nations have played far far more internationals than their Southern Hemisphere counterparts, and it is fair to say that even the likes of Scotland and Ireland and Wales have been neglected. But they have been playing Euro Nations Cups for years now. 

The 2019 Oceania Cup saw Aus play against NZ and Kiwis - fewer games than the 4N and tbh, just the same as many years without a tournament. Its a logo. 

Not high profile internationals however.

The SH have gone back to go forwards. We've stayed still.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, UTK said:

The competition had 6 nations involved across the two tiers and was far more competitive than the 4N with every team bar PNG notching up a win.

The only real criticism of the comp is that PNG should've played their games in Port Moresby.

Sorry, yes I was comparing Aus in the Oceania Cup versus Aus in a 4N.

But let's look at the comparisons:

2016 was the last 4N held in the UK. 

Four Nations - 7 games, 133k fans, 19k per match. All four teams picked up points. 

Oceania Cup - 6 games, 84k fans, 14k per match. 5 of 6 teams picked up points. 

The Oceania Cup was a minimialistic tournament, and in 2020 the Aussies weren't even going to enter it because they had some other games to play instead. 

The one benefit this brought was some guaranteed games to Fiji, PNG, Tonga and Samoa, which is great, but it reduced the number of games for the higher teams, that would bring in the crowds and subsidise the wider international game.  The changes led to fewer internationals for the Oceania Cup teams as a whole.

If we just look at Australia and NZ - in 2016 they were involved in 8 games with 180k fans. In 2019 they played in 5 games and 101k fans. That isn't progress. 

[Dave T]

46 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Not high profile internationals however.

The SH have gone back to go forwards. We've stayed still.

When they go forwards, maybe you will have a point, as they are still very much in the go backwards stage. They don't get benefit of doubt that they will go forwards, as there is no evidence to suggest they will. 

In reality, we have a very different situation here - the UK and Aus are very different places, with a different make-up. Over here we don't have a load of top quality players that are eligible to play for other nations that bring along a fanbase with them. The SH situation is very unique, and has landed perfectly for the Aussies who can now micro-manage this, playing games in Sydney or Auckland and control every aspect of that. 

The natural way of getting more of the lower ranked teams involved in the higher tier comps was to include them in the 8 team comp, which the RFL were pushing. 

The RFL just doesn't have the option of staging a triple header of Wales v Ireland, France v Scotland and Lebanon v Serbia in Wigan in front ot 23k fans.

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Prime Ministers XIII vs PNG?

Unless I'm mistaken that PM XIII is more or less the Aussie equivalent of England Knights.

 

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

GB was created as a team of convenience to enable Welsh players (usually some of the best players in the league too) to play for the RFL international XIII.

It has never really shaken fact that despite all the history and heritage etc. Hence why they never played in Wales...

GB(&I) could be a vehicle to strengthen the home nations. Knowles, Currie etc could have the opportunity for big games against the Aussies and Kiwis every 4 years whilst still playing for Wales or Ireland in world and euro cups.

Are you suggesting that GB(&) vs Australia and New Zealand is bigger than a World Cup?  If so that's one of the sport's problems.

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Surely that is a complete failure of leadership from the RFL?

They asked Bennett to win England the world cup. He did poorly in the 2016 four nations, came second in 2017, beat New Zealand in a series in 2018, and would have had literally 4 games (3 aussie tests and a warm up) planned to do that on top of GB. I expect Shaun Wane or any England coach would have done similar frankly.

If your head coach and your board are at odds, and the board can't even play the team they wanted to, that is nothing less than calamitous? GB needed to be brought back as a success. It was a joke at pretty much every level.

Like I said there is a place for GB, but I don't think the people that matter have a clue what that is.

The persons who matter don't seem to have a clue about much of anything do they?

[Pulga]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Prime Ministers XIII vs PNG?

Yep. Play full tests or don't play at all.

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Pulga said:

Why is any national team playing against a made-up exhibition team?

It devalues the brand of that national team. When will rugby league learn?

 

In the absence of Aus, NZ or Pacific teams to play, then the next best option is to play a team made up of the Southern Hemisphere players in this country, any of the home nations or France don't offer strong enough opposition.

[Pulga]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In the absence of Aus, NZ or Pacific teams to play, then the next best option is to play a team made up of the Southern Hemisphere players in this country, any of the home nations or France don't offer strong enough opposition.

Develop France and Wales at bare minimum. Losing to an exhibition team is such a bad look.

[UTK]

34 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Sorry, yes I was comparing Aus in the Oceania Cup versus Aus in a 4N.

But let's look at the comparisons:

2016 was the last 4N held in the UK. 

Four Nations - 7 games, 133k fans, 19k per match. All four teams picked up points. 

Oceania Cup - 6 games, 84k fans, 14k per match. 5 of 6 teams picked up points. 

The Oceania Cup was a minimialistic tournament, and in 2020 the Aussies weren't even going to enter it because they had some other games to play instead. 

The one benefit this brought was some guaranteed games to Fiji, PNG, Tonga and Samoa, which is great, but it reduced the number of games for the higher teams, that would bring in the crowds and subsidise the wider international game.  The changes led to fewer internationals for the Oceania Cup teams as a whole.

If we just look at Australia and NZ - in 2016 they were involved in 8 games with 180k fans. In 2019 they played in 5 games and 101k fans. That isn't progress. 

Minimalistic is definitely a fair description, but for a first attempt the tournament generally exceeded expectations so there's no reason it couldn't expand in successive iterations. The international calendar that year was unusually stacked with the 9s WC and the GB tour taking up space either side of the competition so in a "regular" year there would be ample room to broaden the scope of the cup.  

It's also fair to point out the disparity in crowds, though the 3/4N had been established for a decade in 2016 whereas this was obviously the first attempt at a new concept. Nonetheless the relative lack of crowds/interest in international matches down here is framed by some key context that leads Australian audiences to believe international RL isn't worth watching. Australia now has a generation of young people who have never seen or will have no memory of Australia being beaten by anyone other than NZ (which was relatively rare in itself).

This is why the Oceania Cup has so much potential, within one competition we already have another contender who can beat Australia for the first time in 15 years. An international tournament that is genuinely competitive is essential to break the unfortunately prevailing idea that Origin is the pinnacle (an incorrect idea), as has become further ingrained over the past 2 decades. Once that notion has been defeated then international RL will have the potential to rise above even the level that Origin holds within Australia at the moment.

Australia planning to jet off to England and ditch the cup for a year was an absolute shambles, I completely agree. The cup needed to become established in the calendar every year while allowing teams to rotate through consistent P&R. There's no reason they couldn't have done both the tour and the cup but of course it never came to that anyway. Covid really could not have come at a worse time for RL all across the globe.

[Harry Stottle]

25 minutes ago, Pulga said:

Develop France and Wales at bare minimum. Losing to an exhibition team is such a bad look.

What do you suggest England keep playing weekend teams against them to make games more competitive, and what about the England team which also needs improving hell of a lot to give it a fighting chance against the best. 

[Ray Cashmere]

3 hours ago, Pulga said:

Develop France and Wales at bare minimum. Losing to an exhibition team is such a bad look.

Obviously the ideal situation is to have competitive French, Welsh, Irish and Scottish teams.

The reality is that France are the only side nearing a competitive opposition for England and containing homegrown players. 

The sport should be putting a lot of focus on developing player pathways in the other home nations but, for the time being, France & the Combined Nations are the only competitive options for England 

[FearTheVee]

On 20/10/2021 at 12:11, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Bringing back GB again, I despair, is this game ever going to stop being stuck in the past trying to get back to the 1970’s 

There is nothing wrong with history.

The GB Lions shouldn't ever be allowed to disappear.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

6 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

There is nothing wrong with history.

The GB Lions shouldn't ever be allowed to disappear.

Go on then, what is the benefit of playing as GB instead of England? As far as I can see it’s a complete flop both home and abroad compared to England games.

[Bring back GB]

24 minutes ago, Ray Cashmere said:

Obviously the ideal situation is to have competitive French, Welsh, Irish and Scottish teams.

The reality is that France are the only side nearing a competitive opposition for England and containing homegrown players. 

The sport should be putting a lot of focus on developing player pathways in the other home nations but, for the time being, France & the Combined Nations are the only competitive options for England 

How should we have Scottish and Irish teams when there are no professional clubs in these countries ?  Absolutely crazy idea. Hardly anybody in these areas care or even know about RL anyway. Let's face it, Scotland play their home games in Workington !!!!!

I just don't agree with heritage teams either. Filling the Scotland team with players who once had a haggis is a complete joke.

 

[FearTheVee]

Just now, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Go on then, what is the benefit of playing as GB instead of England? As far as I can see it’s a complete flop both home and abroad compared to England games.

It's a flawed question, they don't play as GB instead of England.  They play as GB in addition to playing as home nations.

[voteronniegibbs]

.

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

It's a flawed question, they don't play as GB instead of England.  They play as GB in addition to playing as home nations.

How many games did England play in 2019? How many did GB play?