A 2nd Pro Club in the North East

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Grand Est said:

Calling teams "professional" who train 1 or 2 nights a week and work as rooofers or plasterers is laughable.

They are not professional players.

Thinking that they are, is one of the many things that holds the game back.

 

I'm really not sure how that is one of the things that holds the game back. There are probably 100 things I can think of before that. Indeed I think everyone is well aware of the distinction between fully professional, semi professional and amateur so I really can't see how it holds the game back at all.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 hours ago, Grand Est said:

Calling teams "professional" who train 1 or 2 nights a week and work as rooofers or plasterers is laughable.

They are not professional players.

Thinking that they are, is one of the many things that holds the game back.

 

You do know what professional means, don't you?

[Grand Est]

26 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

You do know what professional means, don't you?

of course.

Here in France, players receiving a match payment, but not on any contract, would be referred to as "amateur".  "Semi-pro" would only refer to guys who were on contracts.  "Professional" sports teams over here means teams who are comprised of full time contracted players, and train during the day.  It doesn't mean people who are up on a roof Monday to Saturday and run about on a Sunday for a few quid in compensation.

I can't think of any sport outside of Rugby League who insists that unpaid players and paid players play in completely different leagues.  

[Robthegasman]

I would say at the moment No.

Let Newcastle have the North East to themselves.Let them become a strong force first.

[Grand Est]

58 minutes ago, Damien said:

I'm really not sure how that is one of the things that holds the game back. There are probably 100 things I can think of before that. Indeed I think everyone is well aware of the distinction between fully professional, semi professional and amateur so I really can't see how it holds the game back at all.

Only my opinion, but having clubs like Workington and Hunslet involved in the decision making process around how the professional game is structured, is one of the things that holds the game back.  These clubs are good community clubs, but they are IMO closer to Stanningley or Rochdale Mayfield than Warrington, Wigan or Rhinos.  

Some of the teams in League 1 are barely above amateur status, (and in many countries, would be referred to as amateur).

[Niels]

2 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Tried and failed;well,started and finished.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Shields_(rugby_league)

Thanks. I didn't know that and I have visited a few times.

 

[steve oates]

18 hours ago, Grand Est said:

"A 2nd pro club"???

There isn't even 1. Newcastle have literally just contracted a small handful of guys on professional contracts for the first time. As a club, they still train at night, and their players work during the day.

2 fully professional teams in the North East is the usual deluded fantasy stuff. It will never happen.

Absolutely right. There is only a championship club there that would not have been there if Mr. Kurdi had not bankrolled  it. I appreciate how carefully he has done this, but it still takes a lot of investment to build it towards, what may only be a stab at Superleague. Mr. Hughes in London has spent many millions so is his club now a Superleague club?? 

The struggle is hard enough even if you have an established club along the M62 with history going back to 1896. Even if that club has a great history like Widnes or Bradford there's no chance of being a big club unless someone pays the big bills week on week year on year.

Superleague can only build through the introduction of highly rich people, in it for the long run. There's nothing interesting anymore about picking names out of the air and pondering can they become a Superleague club, and the idea that Middlesbrough could be next is a complete false narrative. Any effort the game can make on this issue is look to get new owners in at places like Widnes and Bradford. Ask oneself what has been the springboard for the strengthening of the French game?? Certainly not "new" clubs in places where they don't play RL.......

[steve oates]

53 minutes ago, Niels said:

Thanks. I didn't know that and I have visited a few times.

 

So it may be relevant to point out the first Newcastle RL club actually started in the 1930's and pretty much faded away after a couple of seasons.....  AFAIK Coventry was tried many years ago and failed........there's a long history of been there, done that and failed, yet so many people go on suggesting we chase the same rainbows.....

[Wellsy4HullFC]

30 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Absolutely right. There is only a championship club there that would not have been there if Mr. Kurdi had not bankrolled  it. I appreciate how carefully he has done this, but it still takes a lot of investment to build it towards, what may only be a stab at Superleague. Mr. Hughes in London has spent many millions so is his club now a Superleague club?? 

The struggle is hard enough even if you have an established club along the M62 with history going back to 1896. Even if that club has a great history like Widnes or Bradford there's no chance of being a big club unless someone pays the big bills week on week year on year.

Superleague can only build through the introduction of highly rich people, in it for the long run. There's nothing interesting anymore about picking names out of the air and pondering can they become a Superleague club, and the idea that Middlesbrough could be next is a complete false narrative. Any effort the game can make on this issue is look to get new owners in at places like Widnes and Bradford. Ask oneself what has been the springboard for the strengthening of the French game?? Certainly not "new" clubs in places where they don't play RL.......

Why does every new club have to be a potential SL club?

Why must be investors only be invited to take over old failing clubs?

There seems to be a very reactive rather than proactive approach bring suggested by many, as well as a "one it the other".

[Mumby Magic]

Thought we would get there when the Teeside Steelers were in their pomp.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 hours ago, Grand Est said:

of course.

Here in France, players receiving a match payment, but not on any contract, would be referred to as "amateur".  "Semi-pro" would only refer to guys who were on contracts.  "Professional" sports teams over here means teams who are comprised of full time contracted players, and train during the day.  It doesn't mean people who are up on a roof Monday to Saturday and run about on a Sunday for a few quid in compensation.

I can't think of any sport outside of Rugby League who insists that unpaid players and paid players play in completely different leagues.  

When we talk of the professional structure here, it includes semi-professional. I thought that it was pretty clear I was talking about that and not full time professional, so I'm not sure why you're choosing to make a big deal of that rather than the point.

[Phil W]

Another north east team would be a no at the moment and for the considerable future. Thunder are doing a lot of good stuff with the community game. Let's concentrate on us getting stronger at Thunder.

The stadium at Darlington is in very poor condition from my understanding and Mowden's longer term vision is to have a sports hub there in a smaller stadium.

Would Carlisle be an option for a new team? Strong base in Cumbria, is it far enough to complement Whitehaven, Workington and Barrow?

Or could we look to Scotland? Edinburgh and Glasgow franchises using the union facilities of those teams? 

[Eddie]

7 hours ago, Grand Est said:

Calling teams "professional" who train 1 or 2 nights a week and work as rooofers or plasterers is laughable.

They are not professional players.

Thinking that they are, is one of the many things that holds the game back.

 

How does players who get paid to play but also have other jobs thinking they’re professional (if they do think that, which I doubt) hold the game back? 

[Hopping Mad]

23 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Well, it's the off-season...!

Would a second club somewhere in the North East be beneficial to the growth of Newcastle or hinder it? I've always been of the opinion that a local rivalry is a great way to help build up interest in a sport and it isn't the sharing of resources that people often make out.

Where in the North East would be a good home for a second pro club if someone were to invest? Sunderland? Middleborough? Darlington? Is league making any strides in these areas? I know there are World Cup games scheduled in Middleborough. Is there legacy strategy there? Is there a strategy at all!?

Be wonderful if we could have the correct spelling of Middlesbrough.

For me, Hartlepool would be the best location for a second NE pro club.

[Hopping Mad]

10 hours ago, wilsontown said:

Currently being used by Darlington Mowden Park RU, but apparently RL has been played there as Gateshead took on Oldham in a challenge cup game in 2009...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darlington_Arena

Unlikely to need 25,500 capacity for the first decade or so, I'd have thought

There are seats at the arena that have never seen a backside.

[Hopping Mad]

2 hours ago, Phil W said:

Another north east team would be a no at the moment and for the considerable future. Thunder are doing a lot of good stuff with the community game. Let's concentrate on us getting stronger at Thunder.

The stadium at Darlington is in very poor condition from my understanding and Mowden's longer term vision is to have a sports hub there in a smaller stadium.

Would Carlisle be an option for a new team? Strong base in Cumbria, is it far enough to complement Whitehaven, Workington and Barrow?

Or could we look to Scotland? Edinburgh and Glasgow franchises using the union facilities of those teams? 

A few seasons ago, I went to watch a Mowden Park RU game (against Sheffield Tigers) at Darlington Arena. I counted about 250 spectators. Had a good poke about before the match. Up on the back row, you could see the number of leaks in the roof. MPRU paid about £1.9m for DA - well over half what they got for selling their former ground to a housing developer. Insane.

I'd say, rugby league-wise, the Carlisle ship sailed long ago. When Carlisle RLFC were doing well, there was a Carlisle & District ARL comp that, at its peak, extended to two divisions. All gone now. A football team - Carlisle City - now play at the Gillford Park ground the RL club developed, with three stands, after being kicked out of Brunton Park by Carlisle United FC.

It'd be a hell of a struggle to establish rugby league in either Edinburgh or Glasgow. Union thrives in neither.

[Grand Est]

43 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

It'd be a hell of a struggle to establish rugby league in either Edinburgh or Glasgow. Union thrives in neither.

It depends what you mean by "thrives". Edinburgh has 1 professional union team, 3 semi- pro teams approximately 15 community/amateur clubs. If you could show me somewhere with a similar Rugby League presence where RL doesn't "thrive" that would be great.

(The first part is right though.... it'd be a hell of a struggle to establish RL - the public have no experience or knowledge of it).

[BridBeachRL]

18 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

It doesn't stop the union club playing in it in front of crowds in the hundreds! It is a pretty ridiculous situation when most of the teams they play against have a field and clubhouse type set up.

They literally do but also have some wealthy farmers/landowners backers from the area. Although some areas of Darlington aren't the best and the Northern Echo Arena or whatever its called these days is next to a traveller site with barbed wire fences surrounding it and Cctv all over the place they are very protective over Union. 

It may be easier to get into the 3k Blackwell Meadows which would be a ground share with the football club they are in the National league North same league as York City. There would need to be a few more hundred seats adding in to meet League 1 standards but a possibility and maybe an attraction if you were investing in their infrastructure as well as bringing in ground share revenue. 

 

[wilsontown]

Darlington RFC also play at Blackwell Meadows so it could get a bit crowded.

[steve oates]

19 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Why does every new club have to be a potential SL club?

Why must be investors only be invited to take over old failing clubs?

Your OP refered to Pro clubs and I acknowledge the slip, you meant semi-pro clubs.... 

North East Rugby League | Facebook shows how the wider area of the North East beyond Newcastle already supports the areas leading club Newcastle.  

Of course any highly wealthy potential big club owner can choose his own route to Superleague, but it may have been really really good for the game if someone like David Argyle had been encouraged to take on say Bradford Bulls, it's a club that has welcomed Mr. Perez....

[Marauder]

23 hours ago, Grand Est said:

of course.

Here in France, players receiving a match payment, but not on any contract, would be referred to as "amateur".  "Semi-pro" would only refer to guys who were on contracts.  "Professional" sports teams over here means teams who are comprised of full time contracted players, and train during the day.  It doesn't mean people who are up on a roof Monday to Saturday and run about on a Sunday for a few quid in compensation.

I can't think of any sport outside of Rugby League who insists that unpaid players and paid players play in completely different leagues.  

Boxing

[Grand Est]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Boxing

2 different sports these days, Marauder. But even in boxing pros can compete in the Olympics.

But yeah.... Point taken.

[tec]

On 27/10/2021 at 16:05, Grand Est said:

Only my opinion, but having clubs like Workington and Hunslet involved in the decision making process around how the professional game is structured, is one of the things that holds the game back.  These clubs are good community clubs, but they are IMO closer to Stanningley or Rochdale Mayfield than Warrington, Wigan or Rhinos.  

Some of the teams in League 1 are barely above amateur status, (and in many countries, would be referred to as amateur).

What a load of nonsense. Ignorant comment. Think how many amateur clubs are around those clubs then how many players of said clubs  progress to semi pro. These then feed the top end. Are we really that stupid in the battle of expansion V tradition to not realise that we all need to work together !

[Grand Est]

1 hour ago, tec said:

What a load of nonsense. Ignorant comment. Think how many amateur clubs are around those clubs then how many players of said clubs  progress to semi pro. These then feed the top end. Are we really that stupid in the battle of expansion V tradition to not realise that we all need to work together !

It's not ignorant at all.

We don't ask people who run a cornershop to make decisions on behalf of Tesco.

Hunslet is a corner shop in Rugby League terms.

Your comment though.... That is an example of ignorant intolerance of other people's opinions.

[Hopping Mad]

22 hours ago, Grand Est said:

It depends what you mean by "thrives". Edinburgh has 1 professional union team, 3 semi- pro teams approximately 15 community/amateur clubs. If you could show me somewhere with a similar Rugby League presence where RL doesn't "thrive" that would be great.

(The first part is right though.... it'd be a hell of a struggle to establish RL - the public have no experience or knowledge of it).

It does, indeed, depend how one defines "thrives". I've watched quite a few of the Edinburgh RU teams. Biggest crowd - by a country mile - was at Heriot's, and that was less than 700. At Watsonians, the gathering barely reached 150. Didn't the Edinburgh pro team cease playing at Murrayfield because their tiny crowds - circa 5,000 - looked so embarrassing?