The Cornwall RLFC Thread

[Griff]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Like I said, heard it all before.

But taken no notice. You're just happy to see a new club fly and die with the inevitable bad publicity for the game.

I thought you were a deeper thinker than that, Tommy.

[Tommygilf]

8 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

If they cant afford to travel in a national comp they should consider their position in a national comp.  It is ridiculous that clubs like Swinton Hunslet and Oldham want to decide who gets to play in a national pyramid. 

Love to know what Swinton and Oldham can show us for the ROI  for the money they had over the years.  

It's once a year.  Leave saturday night, play Sunday,  coach back. This is ridículous.  Lads here in Spain getting buses from Bilbao to Seville for rugby. 

I don't think its unrealistic for these clubs to be unhappy. If they were football clubs they would be what, 7th 8th tier size at best most of them currently? And that is regionalised.

Our folly is pretending that these clubs can be national league teams in their current setup. Form a League 2 North for the clubs that don't want to travel nationally so they can progress to the serious national leagues when they are able to.

[Dave T]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

I don't think its unrealistic for these clubs to be unhappy. If they were football clubs they would be what, 7th 8th tier size at best most of them currently? And that is regionalised.

Our folly is pretending that these clubs can be national league teams in their current setup. Form a League 2 North for the clubs that don't want to travel nationally so they can progress to the serious national leagues when they are able to.

And where would that leave Cornwall? 

Just keep dismissing concerns leaves us with a huge list of failures. 

Comps based on geography are not unusual. Maybe it is the right thing to do at this level. Or maybe the evidence shows that when funded properly the clubs will play anywhere, even Canada. 

A lack of pragmatism is one of the biggest risks the sport faces imo. 

[fighting irish]

It does demonstrate, that real fans (and enthusiasts) are willing to go to significant lengths in order to pursue their passion.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

It does demonstrate, that real fans (and enthusiasts) are willing to go to significant lengths in order to pursue their passion.

How so? 

The ones championing this aren't the ones putting their hands in the pockets for vanity projects. 

Typing some stuff on the Internet to slate Oldham and the likes is no effort at all really. 

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Form a League 2 North for the clubs that don't want to travel nationally so they can progress to the serious national leagues when they are able to.

You've effectively just killed Cornwall RLFC at birth.

[Dave T]

Just now, gingerjon said:

You've effectively just killed Cornwall RLFC at birth.

There are two main concerns here I can see. 

1. Lack of planning - admit them for 2023

2. Lack of funding - it can only go ahead with a £50k travel subsidy provided by the RFL. It's up to them how they get that. 

In reality, that would leave clubs without a leg to stand on to resist it. 

What we have seen is a huge funding cut and an accelerated thumbs up to a logo. 

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, Griff said:

But taken no notice. You're just happy to see a new club fly and die with the inevitable bad publicity for the game.

I thought you were a deeper thinker than that, Tommy.

What bad publicity though? Literally nobody batted an eyelid at any of the failed Southern expansion teams demises. It doesn't register on either their own local radar or even to the broader RL radar except maybe briefly because of the publicity (or rather lack of) devoted to League 1.

Nobody loses here. Either Cornwall are a success and RL has a new home in the South West, or they fail and RL has spent virtually nothing save a bit of time in a club that barely registered whilst someone else has spent their own money, whilst leaving a number of people with a new interest in RL.

I find the "bad publicity" argument naïve at best, disingenuous at worst. I take no notice because the same criticisms are levelled at seemingly everyone who wasn't there in 1960 and tried to join since; including might I add, Sheffield and Manchester.

I don't actually blame some of the existing clubs for this, we're asking a lot of very small organisations and indeed asking them to operate way beyond their current capabilities. But if you keep asking the people who can't why you shouldn't then you'll get the same responses.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

You've effectively just killed Cornwall RLFC at birth.

Not at all I'm saying put them in a national League 1. Leave the regional stuff for the clubs who want to be regional at a lower level (hence league 2). I'm totally against the Southern division idea for the reasons highlighted by many.

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Not at all I'm saying put them in a national League 1. Leave the regional stuff for the clubs who want to be regional at a lower level (hence league 2). I'm totally against the Southern division idea for the reasons highlighted by many.

The 'national' division would be southern by immediate default and, pretty much straightaway, essentially worthless.

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

And where would that leave Cornwall? 

Just keep dismissing concerns leaves us with a huge list of failures. 

Comps based on geography are not unusual. Maybe it is the right thing to do at this level. Or maybe the evidence shows that when funded properly the clubs will play anywhere, even Canada. 

A lack of pragmatism is one of the biggest risks the sport faces imo. 

Joining the pro ranks a national level with teams able and willing to compete in that environment. Its pointless going round in circles asking clubs who get less than 1000 fans to do the most initial work with new clubs whose ambition is way beyond that level. I think that would cut out a lot of rubbish for all sides.

I think your mistaking geography with political boundaries. Plenty of clubs play within the latter, very few in the former (otherwise Russian football would be a nightmare for example). Cornwall is in England, the RFL is the national governing body for England, they have a right to compete in English competitions.

I think pragmatism isn't possible without strategy, otherwise, what are you being pragmatic about except nebulous clubs with nebulous interests that occasionally converge into alliances to be negotiated with. I do think Cornwall seems to be devoid of any strategic aim by the RFL.

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The 'national' division would be southern by immediate default and, pretty much straightaway, essentially worthless.

Not at all, give clubs the choice, play national to be higher in the pyramid, play northern regional lower down. You can't progress upwards unless you play in it.

Clubs with ambitions of Super League would have to either agree they are in a national competition or be honest with their fans and go regional.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Tommygilf

[fighting irish]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

How so? 

The ones championing this aren't the ones putting their hands in the pockets for vanity projects. 

Typing some stuff on the Internet to slate Oldham and the likes is no effort at all really. 

I expected my post to appear straight after the one about stock car racing, but it came out four or five below so created the wrong impression. I'll be more careful in future.

The typical post on these forums is so monosyllabic that readers have become conditioned to ''guessing'' what the poster implied. I'm afraid Dave, you've jumped to some erroneous conclusion about what I really meant. I usually try to be more explicit, in my communications.

I was just musing about the possible willingness of rugby league fans (in Cornwall) to travel, and put up with the counties poor infrastructure to watch the games.

Time will tell I suppose.

For what it's worth, I agree with you, that this should have been discussed amongst the clubs and accepted, rather than being foisted onto them without consultation. If the travel is ''unaffordable'' it's not going to succeed long term. That's quite clear.

I was just saying in a recent post (praising the North East's 40 year long effort) that just plonking new semi-pro clubs in an area and ''hoping'' for a great turn out won't work. We have plenty of evidence to support that belief.

Also, I know very well, that having some detailed, credible plans is an essential feature of any successful project.

So, we are in agreement here Dave. God help Eric Perez, Cornwall and League 1. 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by fighting irish

[Damien]

8 hours ago, Niels said:

In English football we have a National League North and South . In Scotland also there are Highland and Lowland leagues.

These aren't the professional leagues though as I'm sure you know. If you want similar in RL then maybe the clubs that object to playing in a national competition should drop out if the professional pyramid, to leagues like the ones you cite in Football.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Joining the pro ranks a national level with teams able and willing to compete in that environment. Its pointless going round in circles asking clubs who get less than 1000 fans to do the most initial work with new clubs whose ambition is way beyond that level. I think that would cut out a lot of rubbish for all sides.

I think your mistaking geography with political boundaries. Plenty of clubs play within the latter, very few in the former (otherwise Russian football would be a nightmare for example). Cornwall is in England, the RFL is the national governing body for England, they have a right to compete in English competitions.

I think pragmatism isn't possible without strategy, otherwise, what are you being pragmatic about except nebulous clubs with nebulous interests that occasionally converge into alliances to be negotiated with. I do think Cornwall seems to be devoid of any strategic aim by the RFL.

Why do you think Cornwall have higher ambitions? Because Perez said he wants to walk out at Old Trafford? 

This project has no foundations of note, or anything else really. This is a perfect example of a club absolutely having to prove itself at the bottom of the pyramid, and they are lucky to be admitted there. 

I 100% agree about strategy and planning, but you are the one championing what is a badly planned initiative here.

You say the previous failures do no harm, but they absolutely do. The long list of failures versus the few moderate successes hardly inspire confidence and attract others to join. 

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I expected my post to appear straight after the one about stock car racing, but it came out four or five below so created the wrong impression. I'll be more careful in future.

The typical post on these forums is so monosyllabic that readers have become conditioned to ''guessing'' what the poster implied. I'm afraid Dave, you've jumped to some erroneous conclusion about what I really meant. I usually try to be more explicit, in my communications.

I was just musing about the possible willingness of rugby league fans (in Cornwall) to travel, and put up with the counties poor infrastructure to watch the games.

Time will tell I suppose.

For what it's worth, I agree with you, that this should have been discussed amongst the clubs and accepted, rather than being foisted onto them without consultation. If the travel is ''unaffordable'' it's not going to succeed long term. That's quite clear.

I was just saying in a recent post (praising the North East's 40 year long effort) that just plonking new semi-pro clubs in an area and ''hoping'' for a great turn out won't work. We have plenty of evidence to support that belief.

Also, I know very well, that having some detailed, credible plans is an essential feature of any successful project.

So, we are in agreement here Dave. God help Eric Perez, Cornwall and League 1. 

 

 

Thanks for clarifying - and yes, I think you should use the quote function to make it clear what you refer to 

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why do you think Cornwall have higher ambitions? Because Perez said he wants to walk out at Old Trafford? 

This project has no foundations of note, or anything else really. This is a perfect example of a club absolutely having to prove itself at the bottom of the pyramid, and they are lucky to be admitted there. 

I 100% agree about strategy and planning, but you are the one championing what is a badly planned initiative here.

You say the previous failures do no harm, but they absolutely do. The long list of failures versus the few moderate successes hardly inspire confidence and attract others to join. 

I agree and think it has lots of underlying issues to resolve, but if they can't start in League 1 because (some) clubs don't want to travel, where can they start?

Surely the long list suggests otherwise? Despite the sometimes hostile environment, people keep queuing up to put money time and effort into starting up professional RL teams.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Tommygilf

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

These aren't the professional leagues though as I'm sure you know. If you want similar in RL then maybe the clubs that object to playing in a national competition should drop out if the professional pyramid, to leagues like the ones you cite in Football.

Not sure about the Lowland League but the others mentioned are all at least as professional as the national division immediately above them.

[Damien]

So this is now turning into a badly planned initiative, vanity project etc. In about a day its moved on from travel to all the other usual attacks which at this point have nothing to back up those claims. I have seen very little about this project, other than what has been announced, to decide if this is well planned or not. I genuinely don't know and unless you are privy to the proposal I can't see how anyone else does either. I do presume the RFL have and that the club have met whatever criteria is in place. 

I do certainly share concerns about the timeframe. As we are now in November it does seem very short to get things set up and a competitive team on the field. Again though that is up to the RFL to judge and get right. I don't particularly see the need to rush.

[tms]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 The long list of failures 

Don't worry D

WE hope one day professional rugby league can return to Canada specifically  TD Place Stadium 

We hope one day professional Rugby League can return to Canada, and specifically TD Place Stadium.

We hope one day professional Rugby League can return to Canada, and specifically TD Place Stadium.We hope one day professional Rugby League can return to Canada, and specifically TD Place Stadium.We hope one day professional Rugby League can return to Canada, and specifically TD Place Stadium.

We hope one day professional Rugby League can return to Canada, and specifically TD Place Stadium.We hope one day professional Rugby League can return to Canada, and specifically TD Place Stadium.

We hope one day professional Rugby League can return to Canada, and specifically TD Place Stadium.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Not sure about the Lowland League but the others mentioned are all at least as professional as the national division immediately above them.

There is a clear distinction between the professional leagues administered by what is now the EFL and what is below. Anything below is non league football. It's only the sheer amount of money in the game and owners chasing getting into EFL League 2 that has meant that we now have monied up clubs in leagues below that.

[zylya]

Couple of questions for people who are anti-Cornwall-in-league-1:

1. If your issue is travel for the other League 1 clubs, what league should they be in instead?

2. If your issue is that it doesn't seem well planned - what details (e.g. financial plan? business plan?) would you have to see that would convince you that it might work? 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

There is a clear distinction between the professional leagues administered by what is now the EFL and what is below. Anything below is non league football. It's only the sheer amount of money in the game and owners chasing getting into EFL League 2 that has meant that we now have monied up clubs in leagues below that.

There's a distinction in administration but well into the regional divisions they are full-time clubs. I know the BBC at FA Cup time likes to pretend that all non league clubs are populated by milkmen who just run out on Saturday but it's been thirty years since that was true.

[Barley Mow]

35 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Not at all, give clubs the choice, play national to be higher in the pyramid, play northern regional lower down. You can't progress upwards unless you play in it.

Clubs with ambitions of Super League would have to either agree they are in a national competition or be honest with their fans and go regional.

This would probably mean that League 1 (plus a few less ambitious northern championship teams) would become the northern regional division and the southern league 1 clubs would join the more ambitious northern clubs in the nationwide championship.

We would then have W Wales, etc versus the likes of Leigh, Featherstone, Bradford and Halifax. I don't think it would work with the difference in standard - W Wales, etc aren't suddenly going to be able to recruit at the level of the club's they would compete with.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Barley Mow

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Barley Mow said:

This would probably mean that League 1 (plus a few less ambitious northern championship teams) would become the northern regional division and the southern league 1 clubs would join the more ambitious northern clubs in the nationwide championship.

We would then have W Wales, etc versus the likes of Leigh, Featherstone, Bradford and Halifax. I don't think it would work with the difference in standard - W Wales, etc aren't suddenly going to be able to recruit at the level of the club's they would compete with.

They'd be funded far better centrally to be fair, and we'd have a far more realistic view of the prospects of RL in this country.

I actually suspect most clubs would shut up whinging for the time being.