The Cornwall RLFC Thread

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

This would probably mean that League 1 (plus a few less ambitious northern championship teams) would become the northern regional division and the southern league 1 clubs would join the more ambitious northern clubs in the nationwide championship.

We would then have W Wales, etc versus the likes of Leigh, Featherstone, Bradford and Halifax. I don't think it would work with the difference in standard - W Wales, etc aren't suddenly going to be able to recruit at the level of the club's they would compete with.

As surely as night follow day, within half a season you'd have the bigger clubs moaning about lack of away fans (or something) and the vote to expel would follow soon after.

[Dave T]

30 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agree and think it has lots of underlying issues to resolve, but if they can't start in League 1 because (some) clubs don't want to travel, where can they start?

Surely the long list suggests otherwise? Despite the sometimes hostile environment, people keep queuing up to put money time and effort into starting up professional RL teams.

Clubs will travel. We have actual evidence that proves that (Canada). Clubs are rightly pushing back on funding expansion. It is being left to them to fund it. 

Of course the long list can be I terpreted in various ways, and I don't have an issue with failures really, but it isn't inspiring. 

[Damien]

12 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

This would probably mean that League 1 (plus a few less ambitious northern championship teams) would become the northern regional division and the southern league 1 clubs would join the more ambitious northern clubs in the nationwide championship.

We would then have W Wales, etc versus the likes of Leigh, Featherstone, Bradford and Halifax. I don't think it would work with the difference in standard - W Wales, etc aren't suddenly going to be able to recruit at the level of the club's they would compete with.

Whilst true, initially at least when it comes to competitiveness, I think it provides a fairly decent measure of clubs and where they want to be. We would have those that actually want to progress and play in a professional national league pyramid and those that don't and are happy with their lot in a regional league with plenty of derbies. There is no shame in either and maybe we do need to do that.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Damien

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, zylya said:

Couple of questions for people who are anti-Cornwall-in-league-1:

1. If your issue is travel for the other League 1 clubs, what league should they be in instead?

2. If your issue is that it doesn't seem well planned - what details (e.g. financial plan? business plan?) would you have to see that would convince you that it might work? 

2. Perez has admitted that he has been working on this for '4 or 5 months'. That hardly suggests extensive groundwork has been done. 

They have no team (or anything really) with 4m to go. 

There appears to be no funding plan in place from the RFL who have removed travel funding. 

As per my previous post, if this was announced for 2023 and that travel costs were covered, it would be difficult to grumble. 

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I think vanity is actually the amount of money given to teams like swinton oldham and any other club with no infrastructure to pretend they are national teams with professional aspirations. 

They are real RL clubs, working in their communities, playing games, doing good stuff. 

The disdain shown towards RL clubs from within is disgusting. Who needs enemies? 

[Dave T]

30 minutes ago, Damien said:

So this is now turning into a badly planned initiative, vanity project etc. In about a day its moved on from travel to all the other usual attacks which at this point have nothing to back up those claims. I have seen very little about this project, other than what has been announced, to decide if this is well planned or not. I genuinely don't know and unless you are privy to the proposal I can't see how anyone else does either. I do presume the RFL have and that the club have met whatever criteria is in place. 

I do certainly share concerns about the timeframe. As we are now in November it does seem very short to get things set up and a competitive team on the field. Again though that is up to the RFL to judge and get right. I don't particularly see the need to rush.

The lack of travel funding is part of the bad planning. Distance means cost - it is the same point. Clubs showed with Toronto they were prepared to travel from a time point of view. 

These are not different points. 

And you appear to agree about the bad planning with your points about the time lines. 

This is the point. 

Had the RFL announced this for 2023 and given £5k travel subsidy per club it'd be hard to argue there is an issue. 

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

They are real RL clubs, working in their communities, playing games, doing good stuff. 

The disdain shown towards RL clubs from within is disgusting. Who needs enemies? 

I mean, with even the kindest, most favourable, interpretation possible, Cornwall have no ground, no infrastructure and no development.

But only Swinton, Oldham and Rochdale need kicking for carrying on like that. With new clubs, it's 'vision'.

[Lowdesert]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The lack of travel funding is part of the bad planning. Distance means cost - it is the same point. Clubs showed with Toronto they were prepared to travel from a time point of view. 

These are not different points. 

And you appear to agree about the bad planning with your points about the time lines. 

This is the point. 

Had the RFL announced this for 2023 and given £5k travel subsidy per club it'd be hard to argue there is an issue. 

Shouldn’t this have been an RFL announcement?  I think we will see something shortly as I believe there was a meeting yesterday involving L1 clubs and Champs.

[Davo5]

Posters & clubs whinging about 1 trip to Cornwall,let’s hope the 3 Cumbrian clubs don’t get relegated or we’d get open revolt.& protest marches along the M62.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Shouldn’t this have been an RFL announcement?  I think we will see something shortly as I believe there was a meeting yesterday involving L1 clubs and Champs.

Yeah I think so. It feels like a competition announcement rather than an individual club. 

Something feels slightly off with it all tbh, feels like there are politics at play. 

[Eddie]

50 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Not sure about the Lowland League but the others mentioned are all at least as professional as the national division immediately above them.

The Highland League isn’t as professional as Scottish League Two, and not are the conference N/S as professional as the conference National. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Posters & clubs whinging about 1 trip to Cornwall,let’s hope the 3 Cumbrian clubs don’t get relegated or we’d get open revolt.& protest marches along the M62.

Those distances are not comparable in the slightest. 

Keighley seems to be the marker people are using, its 2.5hrs to the furthest Cumbrian team versus 7hrs for Penryn. 

And again, the clubs have shown they will travel to play, having done it to Canada - where the RFL sorted travel funding. 

[Davo5]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Those distances are not comparable in the slightest. 

Keighley seems to be the marker people are using, its 2.5hrs to the furthest Cumbrian team versus 7hrs for Penryn. 

And again, the clubs have shown they will travel to play, having done it to Canada - where the RFL sorted travel funding. 

But the costs of 2 or 3 trips to Cumbria is,maybe the L1 clubs should implement a Cumbrian quota.

[zylya]

 

8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I mean, with even the kindest, most favourable, interpretation possible, Cornwall have no ground, no infrastructure and no development.

But only Swinton, Oldham and Rochdale need kicking for carrying on like that. With new clubs, it's 'vision'.

Cornwall were announced 2 days ago, the other three clubs have nearly 450 years of history between them.

How much value for money has been gained by giving these clubs all the money they've had over the past x number of years (since Champ/League 1 funding started)?

Some people are suggesting that Cornwall shouldn't be allowed in League 1 because these clubs, who have had around 150 years each to grow themselves into sustainable businesses, might have to pay extra travel money.

Not saying they deserve a kicking just for existing, but should they be the main factor when deciding what direction the game goes? If they have no ambition to grow beyond being a decent semi-pro club in their communities, should we be trying to restrict the semi-pro level to what they can manage, or should there be an aspiration to have a truly national game?

Unlike football or union, there's no clubs outside the heartlands that can just grow into semi pro teams and get promoted in the same way. All the clubs have to be new or nearly new because for about 100 years of Rugby League, there was very little interest in getting RL played nationally, with a few notable exceptions (London, Wales etc). And whether we like it or not, new clubs, by definition aren't going to have the same level of infrastructure as a club who's existed for 150 years and has been in receipt of central funding.

[Phil]

Cornwall too far? This really shows how small time, small minded and parochial this game is. 

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

But the costs of 2 or 3 trips to Cumbria is,maybe the L1 clubs should implement a Cumbrian quota.

Well no, because you get 3 games for those costs. 

There is also the fact that these are known costs. They are part of the structure. 

This is a new decision that adds substantial costs at a time that funding has been decimated. 

It's a double whammy from the RFL. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

Cornwall too far? This really shows how small time, small minded and parochial this game is. 

Soundbites don't pay bills Phil. 

Somebody has to pay for this. That is what this is about. It won't be you or me who funds it, it'll be the owners of the other clubs. Probably out of their own pocket. 

[Niels]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

These aren't the professional leagues though as I'm sure you know. If you want similar in RL then maybe the clubs that object to playing in a national competition should drop out if the professional pyramid, to leagues like the ones you cite in Football.

The National North and South clubs are mostly part time. A lot of the National league teams are also. As are the Scottish teams at that level.

It is still a National competition, just split into 2 leagues. 

We can't demand teams drop out every time someone decides to start a new team. 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

Cornwall too far? This really shows how small time, small minded and parochial this game is. 

The inverse also shows how small time the sport has become: believing that a wing and a prayer club playing out of a ramshackle rugby union ground in a tiny town is a vision of the future ... shows how small minded and parochial this game is.

[OriginalMrC]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well no, because you get 3 games for those costs. 

There is also the fact that these are known costs. They are part of the structure. 

This is a new decision that adds substantial costs at a time that funding has been decimated. 

It's a double whammy from the RFL. 

Agree completely. Don't think people fully understand how much is costs to run a league 1 club. Many clubs have also just come out of a season with reduced revenue and face massive funding cuts next year. They have every right to have concerns about additional costs which they will have to pay. This isnt tin pot, it's about clubs having to budget extra money without any prior warning and on top of travel allowances being scrapped. 

I'm not against a Cornish team, the idea is quite exciting (even if I don't totally trust the person behind it) but had the clubs been given the heads up on this and told beforehand I doubt there'd be as much derision. 

[ChristianB]

Just to address the broad matter of 'playing squad' which has been mentioned in several posts.

With regards to attracting established players, the lifestyle opportunities available in Cornwall will undoubtedly appeal to a great many. Not all, of course, but I am sure plenty would be drawn toward the sea and surf nature of the far South West. And, as a dad myself, I can attest to it being a great place for young families.

However, as has been stated, the intention is to draw upon local talent as much as possible.

I have seen some allude to it being a possible option for those not quite able/good enough to get on a player pathway for the Exeter Chiefs or Cornish Pirates RU. But this is a very glass-half-empty and defeatist stance. Rather, Cornwall RLFC will be there for those who are naturally suited to League and would only wither on the vine otherwise.

Over recent years I have watched my son play junior Rugby all over the county - from Launceston to St. Ives, Newquay to Fowey. One thing that has struck me is how many youngsters would flourish in League more than Union, and the club will undoubtedly offer them a meaningful outlet in due course. So very many would, if playing junior Rugby League in Hunslet, Hull, Wigan or Warrington, already be on the radar of professional clubs.

With this pathway now available, don't be at all surprised if within a decade there are several Cornish-born players at the highest level of the sport.

[Davo5]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well no, because you get 3 games for those costs. 

There is also the fact that these are known costs. They are part of the structure. 

This is a new decision that adds substantial costs at a time that funding has been decimated. 

It's a double whammy from the RFL. 

I guess those clubs won’t be entering the Challenge Cup in case they get an away tie in London or god forbid the Navy down in Portsmouth,the same away ties my“amateur” club have taken part in.

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, ChristianB said:

Just to address the broad matter of 'playing squad' which has been mentioned in several posts.

With regards to attracting established players, the lifestyle opportunities available in Cornwall will undoubtedly appeal to a great many. Not all, of course, but I am sure plenty would be drawn toward the sea and surf nature of the far South West. And, as a dad myself, I can attest to it being a great place for young families.

However, as has been stated, the intention is to draw upon local talent as much as possible.

I have seen some allude to it being a possible option for those not quite able/good enough to get on a player pathway for the Exeter Chiefs or Cornish Pirates RU. But this is a very glass-half-empty and defeatist stance. Rather, Cornwall RLFC will be there for those who are naturally suited to League and would only wither on the vine otherwise.

Over recent years I have watched my son play junior Rugby all over the county - from Launceston to St. Ives, Newquay to Fowey. One thing that has struck me is how many youngsters would flourish in League more than Union, and the club will undoubtedly offer them a meaningful outlet in due course. So very many would, if playing junior Rugby League in Hunslet, Hull, Wigan or Warrington, already be on the radar of professional clubs.

With this pathway now available, don't be at all surprised if within a decade there are several Cornish-born players at the highest level of the sport.

Less concerned about a decade and a bit more bothered about the first game which is due in about three months.

[Davo5]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

The inverse also shows how small time the sport has become: believing that a wing and a prayer club playing out of a ramshackle rugby union ground in a tiny town is a vision of the future ... shows how small minded and parochial this game is.

Literally no one is saying they are a vision of the future,you’ve made that up,but it is a well used rod to beat clubs outside of the M62 with,remember the Toronto “saviours” of the sport used only by detractors .

Edited November 4, 2021 by Davo5

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

The lack of travel funding is part of the bad planning. Distance means cost - it is the same point. Clubs showed with Toronto they were prepared to travel from a time point of view. 

These are not different points. 

And you appear to agree about the bad planning with your points about the time lines. 

This is the point. 

Had the RFL announced this for 2023 and given £5k travel subsidy per club it'd be hard to argue there is an issue. 

I don't think funding should be a barrier to an English team joining the professional pyramid. It shouldn't be  barrier anymore than London, Whitehaven or Newcastle. You either believe in a nationwide league or you don't. Toronto was completely different, as was Toulouse, as they were foreign teams joining the English pyramid.

I don't agree about bad planning because I haven't seen the plans. Neither have you. The devil is in the detail and we have yet to see it. A short timeframe does not mean badly planned. Similarly something can be planned for a year or more with very little done bar for 2 months. It may well be the case that they have met every demand placed on them by the RFL and they have spent 6 months dotting every i and crossing every t. It is actually the least I would expect the RFL to do as the governing body. If anyone is to blame for your concerns it is certainly not Cornwall or the people behind it, it is the RFL for what would be failing to do due diligence.

As is we just don't have that detail to judge and I'll reserve judgement until I see something more concrete.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Damien