The Cornwall RLFC Thread

[Eddie]

32 minutes ago, Devon Ram said:

Why does Rugby League clubs need paying to travel ? does it happen in other sports ? its not long ago that the Cornish Rugby Union side used to travel up to the likes of Otley where they helped with travel costs.

 

In the FA Vase do amateur teams kick off about having to travel the length of the country to play games? 

[del capo]

2 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

This is something I found odd when Ottawa purchased Hemel's RFL membership (and it is full membership of the RFL rather than a franchise or licence as some have said):

Having left the competition in 1999, Bramley retained their membership of the RFL and applied to re-join the Northern Ford Premiership (as it was then) in 2000 or 2001, but were refused. They nonetheless retained membership for a number of years after that despite not having an active team.

It seems strange that Hemel-Ottawa-Cornwall are seen as having a right to be able to enter a team because they are members of the RFL, whereas that obviously didn't apply for Bramley.

Hemel Stags (2016 ) Ltd are full club members of the RFL . They were  re branded as Ottowa Aces and listed as such in the RFL Articles of association as recently as last year. Eric Perez has been a director since November 2019.. They are significantly controlled by a Toronto based company and Cornwall RL is a further but  yes interesting re-brand.

People need to distinguish between legal entities and what is normally considered to be  a rugby club.

Maybe Bob Brown and Eric Perez have shown more business acumen than  was applied when Bramley struggled. Bramley withdrew from full membership in favour of affiliated status only  and thereby  lost that magic piece of paper that would have retained  for them a seat at the table.

The RFL Board DO have a say in change of ownership etc but that stable door would be hard to reopen  so long after Eric Perez was allowed to take over and at a time  of course when North American expansion was the flavour of the month.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Eddie said:

In the FA Vase do amateur teams kick off about having to travel the length of the country to play games? 

The way it works in the Vase is that the home team pays for the travel of the away team (out of the gate receipts) and, after that, any gate revenue is shared.

So the travelling side is not out of pocket.

[iffleyox]

10 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's also worth adding to this bit of digression that the RFU travel funding also goes to clubs who don't have to travel by plane.

On the same subject of digression, there is no longer any travel funding from the RFU (not a pandemic thing, it went a few years ago). National 1 (level 3) get a 'contribution' to their travel costs but only if they stay within a ludicrous salary cap, which none of them do, so no one gets it. National 1 goes from Plymouth to Darlington (and until the last couple of seasons also Corbridge and Blaydon).

I said on here the other week, the regionalisation at level 4 with National 2 North and South sounds better, but N2S goes from Redruth to Canterbury (and Guernsey). 

In terms of transport funding, it's not that the grass is greener - there's not actually grass on either side of the hill...

[Tabby]

So we are back to Union players, playing RL.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/cornwall-rugby-league-discuss-plans-22059505?utm_source=leeds_live_newsletter&utm_campaign=rugby_league_lve_newsletter&utm_medium=email

Edited November 4, 2021 by Tabby

[gingerjon]

Just now, iffleyox said:

On the same subject of digression, there is no longer any travel funding from the RFU (not a pandemic thing, it went a few years ago). National 1 (level 3) get a 'contribution' to their travel costs but only if they stay within a ludicrous salary cap, which none of them do, so no one gets it. National 1 goes from Plymouth to Darlington (and until the last couple of seasons also Corbridge and Blaydon).

I said on here the other week, the regionalisation at level 4 with National 2 North and South sounds better, but N2S goes from Redruth to Canterbury (and Guernsey). 

In terms of transport funding, it's not that the grass is greener - there's not actually grass on either side of the hill...

Ah, okay, if they didn't spend money like water then they would get funding and there is, technically, funding available for clubs who don't want to make like a Las Vegas stag party at the casino.

But I take your point.

[iffleyox]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Ah, okay, if they didn't spend money like water then they would get funding and there is, technically, funding available for clubs who don't want to make like a Las Vegas stag party at the casino.

But I take your point.

fair - but within the humour the 'contributions' didn't (at least AIUI) cover the travel in full anyway. It's a trade-off certainly. There are clubs at level 4 who said quite openly they'd be picking and choosing which away fixtures they fulfilled this season (though that seems to have gone a bit quiet). Big league re-org going on which means probably no relegation at that level this season, so bolshy clubs can afford to play games. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by iffleyox

[Exiled red]

If there's 500k rugby loving people already in Cornwall, why can't they muster up a top flight union side and build a relatively low cost 10k capacity stadium.

[Griff]

46 minutes ago, Devon Ram said:

Why does Rugby League clubs need paying to travel ? does it happen in other sports ? its not long ago that the Cornish Rugby Union side used to travel up to the likes of Otley where they helped with travel costs.

 

It's probably because the clubs carrying the flag to the furthest outposts of Rugby League are the clubs least able to afford the costs.

Let's not forget that travel to France is subsidised too.  That for clubs with substantially larger turnovers than clubs in Division 3.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Tabby said:

So we are back to Union players, playing RL.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/cornwall-rugby-league-discuss-plans-22059505?utm_source=leeds_live_newsletter&utm_campaign=rugby_league_lve_newsletter&utm_medium=email

I mean that is the inescapable and fundamental historic basis of RL's playerbase, so nothing too major to worry about. Its not hockey players.

[Tabby]

1 minute ago, Exiled red said:

If there's 500k rugby loving people already in Cornwall, why can't they muster up a top flight union side and build a relatively low cost 10k capacity stadium.

Because each brick would cost a grand.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Tabby

[Dave T]

26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I mean you literally cannot drive to any of those places so there's a bit of a difference.

What on earth does that have to do with it? 

It's a travel subsidy, it doesn't matter whether it is for a bus, plane or trike. 

[Tabby]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I mean that is the inescapable and fundamental historic basis of RL's playerbase, so nothing too major to worry about. Its not hockey players.

Yes but he will require has he says Northern support.

[Dave T]

27 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

RL seems to like to do things in secret, or at least, in a way that appears furtive. It's pretty easy to find out how things work for both those teams, just like it's a doddle to find out the prize fund for virtually all leagues and cups in football (something which seems to get more and more opaque in RL).

I'd agree with this. I don't understand the lack of transparency. Rimmer appears to me to be the worst we have ever had. He says very little and seems to enjoy giving politician answers and teasers. 

[Dave T]

19 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The way it works in the Vase is that the home team pays for the travel of the away team (out of the gate receipts) and, after that, any gate revenue is shared.

So the travelling side is not out of pocket.

Only in RL. 

[iffleyox]

11 minutes ago, Exiled red said:

If there's 500k rugby loving people already in Cornwall, why can't they muster up a top flight union side and build a relatively low cost 10k capacity stadium.

without going cross-code, because it's relevant to whether or not the RL side have got a chance - the owner of Cornish Pirates has put millions in since pretty much the game going pro and the planning has been a nightmare because in the initial years of the over-a-decade this planning battle has been going on, the council didn't want a professional sports team or a stadium because of crowds, traffic, etc, anywhere in Cornwall. That's slightly changed but in the meantime obviously the sums needed have risen. 

Bottom line, Pirates are first in the queue, it's their stadium, the RFU actually probably do want them in the top tier if they can ever get it cracked, and anyone else - whether Truro FC or Cornwall RL, will probably have to be second fiddle/second-go on the Pirates' trainset.*

They're actually a nice club, and look after the people who go and visit them right down there. In level 2 RU fans from other clubs make a weekend of it, because it's the only way it makes sense.

*the other problem they've consistently had for a long time is the rivalry between different parts of Cornwall making it difficult for places to get behind one club. They love RU down there, but they want to see Penzance playing Launceston playing Redruth etc. Which is why the Pirates play on Sundays (to the chagrin of basically every other union club having to travel down there) because on Saturdays the rugby population of Cornwall is watching or playing for their own town or village. 

Actually the further I got writing that, the more I hoped Perez et al have done their homework, because sport in Cornwall is complicated...

Edited November 4, 2021 by iffleyox

[Eddie]

23 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The way it works in the Vase is that the home team pays for the travel of the away team (out of the gate receipts) and, after that, any gate revenue is shared.

So the travelling side is not out of pocket.

Good knowledge, thanks. Maybe that would be a good way to do it then, as long as Cornwall’s travel to other clubs was done the same way. 

[Tommygilf]

22 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

All the involved teams are also playing in regional leagues so, again, it's not a like for like comparison.

But when some folk seem to believe that RL is unique for subsidising travel (etc) as an entry requirement it is useful to point out that that's not true.

I think that is a bit of a strawman tbh; at least, I wouldn't give those people the value of my time to reply as its just clearly false.

However, we are seeing the same criticisms levelled at a new team from England as we have seen towards teams from different countries - and travel is being levelled as a significant barrier, not specifically costs either, but time too. 

Like I have put previously, I think we are potentially asking organisations to operate way beyond their capabilities and desires at all levels of the game, perhaps Cornwall's addition has just brought this into focus. I empathise with clubs in that position, but ultimately they are in a national league and have to deal with that. 

This is the first time in what, 7 years, since neither the Championship or League 1 will not have any non-UK teams in their divisions, yet criticism is been levelled at the new domestic club. I think a lot of this, from the clubs such as Rochdale which I have seen, is as much venting on the RFL and frustrations with the current scenario they face. Which is understandable.

[Exiled red]

2 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

without going cross-code, because it's relevant to whether or not the RL side have got a chance - the owner of Cornish Pirates has put millions in since pretty much the game going pro and the planning has been a nightmare because in the initial years of the over-a-decade this planning battle has been going on, the council didn't want a professional sports team or a stadium because of crowds, traffic, etc, anywhere in Cornwall. That's slightly changed but in the meantime obviously the sums needed have risen. 

Bottom line, Pirates are first in the queue, it's their stadium, the RFU actually probably do want them in the top tier if they can ever get it cracked, and anyone else - whether Truro FC or Cornwall RL, will probably have to be second fiddle/second-go on the Pirates' trainset.*

They're actually a nice club, and look after the people who go and visit them right down there. In level 2 RU fans from other clubs make a weekend of it, because it's the only way it makes sense.

*the other problem they've consistently had for a long time is the rivalry between different parts of Cornwall making it difficult for places to get behind one club. They love RU down there, but they want to see Penzance playing Launceston playing Redruth etc. Which is why the Pirates ply on Sundays (to the chagrin of basically every other union club having to travel down there) because on Saturdays the rugby population of Cornwall is watching or playing for their own town or village. 

 

Thanks for the info and I get the village mentality.  The attendances of the pirates don't back it up though, maybe they would if they made the premiership...very much like Exeter Chiefs when they built there new stadium.

I just don't see the cornish people getting behind a sports side on a sustainable level especially with the geographical challenges that you mention.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

without going cross-code, because it's relevant to whether or not the RL side have got a chance - the owner of Cornish Pirates has put millions in since pretty much the game going pro and the planning has been a nightmare because in the initial years of the over-a-decade this planning battle has been going on, the council didn't want a professional sports team or a stadium because of crowds, traffic, etc, anywhere in Cornwall. That's slightly changed but in the meantime obviously the sums needed have risen. 

Bottom line, Pirates are first in the queue, it's their stadium, the RFU actually probably do want them in the top tier if they can ever get it cracked, and anyone else - whether Truro FC or Cornwall RL, will probably have to be second fiddle/second-go on the Pirates' trainset.*

They're actually a nice club, and look after the people who go and visit them right down there. In level 2 RU fans from other clubs make a weekend of it, because it's the only way it makes sense.

*the other problem they've consistently had for a long time is the rivalry between different parts of Cornwall making it difficult for places to get behind one club. They love RU down there, but they want to see Penzance playing Launceston playing Redruth etc. Which is why the Pirates play on Sundays (to the chagrin of basically every other union club having to travel down there) because on Saturdays the rugby population of Cornwall is watching or playing for their own town or village. 

Actually the further I got writing that, the more I hoped Perez et al have done their homework, because sport in Cornwall is complicated...

Tbf, Mr Hughes at London and Mr Beaumont at Leigh have also spent millions too for practically as little results. Its an expensive hobby...

Playing in Summer should give the RL side a bit of breathing room with fixture timings however.

[Tommygilf]

12 minutes ago, Tabby said:

Yes but he will require has he says Northern support.

As does every club these days, even some in the NRL

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

No but you’ll need a flying device to get past the tractors,caravans & lost tourists on the A66 from Easter until Sept.

I've been to Workington in summer.  Three hours tops from a lot further away than Keighley.

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What on earth does that have to do with it? 

It's a travel subsidy, it doesn't matter whether it is for a bus, plane or trike. 

There's a significant difference between hiring a coach vs a ferry or plane (on top). I mean come on Dave?

Everyone is generally speaking equal on the mainland.

[Griff]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Only in RL. 

What is ?

Are you saying gate sharing only happens in Rugby League ?

[iffleyox]

7 minutes ago, Exiled red said:

The attendances of the pirates don't back it up though, maybe they would if they made the premiership...very much like Exeter Chiefs when they built there new stadium.

I just don't see the cornish people getting behind a sports side on a sustainable level especially with the geographical challenges that you mention.

Pirates would/will be a whole other proposition in the Premiership - they already benefit from what money there is at other Level 2 clubs coming down for the weekend to watch their team play them, and that with the Premiership clubs would be magnified massively. 

I don't know whether the locals will get behind an RL side because (to be quite honest) until about 48 hours ago I'd never stopped to think about it. I'm not *sure* that I can see it but would be delighted to be wrong. The RU side probably are genuine sleeping giants though.